Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Woodinblack]

I think to people saying about having a sub, I have one (a cheap one) and it is great at adding the lows, but it certainly takes it out of the first word of the OP. I think one of the key things of the topic peopel are missing is compact. You have gone from 2 speakers to 2 + at least one additional heavy awkward sub. I dont' even take mine most of the time due to the weight and additional things to carry.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I think to people saying about having a sub, I have one (a cheap one) and it is great at adding the lows, but it certainly takes it out of the first word of the OP. I think one of the key things of the topic people are missing is compact. You have gone from 2 speakers to 2 + at least one additional heavy awkward sub. I dont' even take mine most of the time due to the weight and additional things to carry.

Yup totally agree, thanks Woody. Our main PA already has a RCF 702 ASII sub, so we're familiar and very much bought-into the benefits a sub can deliver. But for our back-up PA which the drummer will take along with his kit in a not massive car, compact, albeit combined with decent quality sound output, is the key concern for us here. Asking him to get a new car is not an option 😁

 

@Tubster are you not getting any feedback by having one PA speaker effectively as rear wall facing backline?

Edited April 7, 2022 by Al Krow

[PaulWarning]

41 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

 

@Tubster are you not getting any feedback by having one PA speaker effectively as rear wall facing backline?

feedback while being in front of a small PA is not such a problem in my experience, we use a Yamaha EMX512SC power mixer, our singer spends quite a lot of time running around the crowd with his radio mic without feedback problems

[Tubster]

Al - no feedback with speaker on floor. Only thing to watch is bass drum mic as it is at similar level.

one of our friends here uses mismatched speakers - both ALTOS - 15” on floor and 10” on the pole. Wowza but seems to do the trick 🤔

BTW just read an article that QSC have suspended production of their KS & K speakers plus a bunch o other stuff. Absolute Music confirmation that supply constraints with all brands continue due to pandemic and the joy of Brexit!

[Stub Mandrel]

11 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

That's not necessarily a bad thing, as you can tame too much low end by pulling down the low end EQ.

 

True, but it does show how dramatic an effect it can be.

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Tubster said:

 🤔BTW just read an article that QSC have suspended production of their KS & K speakers plus a bunch o other stuff. Absolute Music confirmation that supply constraints with all brands continue due to pandemic and the joy of Brexit!

Interesting, where did you see that?

[Pirellithecat]

Off Topic ....... but ......   Al - we're using RCF Art 710-A's (just vocals for now) and our drummer wants to Mic up his drums - from your experience does the RCF 702 ASII sub (one of) work for you in this context?  

[Tubster]

14 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Off Topic ....... but ......   Al - we're using RCF Art 710-A's (just vocals for now) and our drummer wants to Mic up his drums - from your experience does the RCF 702 ASII sub (one of) work for you in this context?  

What type of drummer, music and venue?

[grandad]

I successfully used a Yamaha EMX 5016f into EV SX300Es + SB 122s for some years. All instruments + vocals + electronic drums. 

A Roland KC150 was used as the monitor for the drummer. This allowed direct out to the mixer & a dedicated feedback from the mixer which gave the drummer control over the mix he heard, (that is to say channel 4 labelled monitor from the mixer will not be fed back out again to the mixer). 

The Yamaha EMX range & many others now feature F/B suppression which I find work well. 

Edited April 8, 2022 by grandad

[Al Krow]

15 hours ago, Pirellithecat said:

Off Topic ....... but ......   Al - we're using RCF Art 710-A's (just vocals for now) and our drummer wants to Mic up his drums - from your experience does the RCF 702 ASII sub (one of) work for you in this context?  

I've actually recently sold my AS 702 ASII to the drummer of one of the bands I'm in; he's pairing with 15" Proel tops and finding that it's adding value to his PA set-up for kick drum. Drummer in my other band has just been going through our RCF 310As, but I'm sure the 702 ASII's would have added considerable heft there too, probably more so. 

[Al Krow]

Perhaps worth mentioning that if you're after a BIG sound rather than the portability compromise we're looking for, then whilst I like the sound we manage to produce with our gear as a band a lot, it's not in the same class as @bassfan's 24K crew's set up. Now that is a gloriously BIG sound! 

[Chienmortbb]

On 07/04/2022 at 09:31, Tubster said:

Ok - this really is the last time!!!!

Get Rcf 702 mk2 or

even slimmer but more £ - QSC K112

combine with your current 10”,rcf.

My question to you Al. Do you have somewhere near your home where you can see and evaluate PA gear? Absolute Music in Poole was great. They stock RCF.

 

Yes Absolute are great for PA, crap for bass (the are just up the road from me. They have a proper big room (well much bigger than the average PUB) and you can really put the stuff through its paces. No ULEZ but £6000 in fuel from your area (actually the roads are really good most of the way so your fuel economy will be good).

[Chienmortbb]

Just now, Chienmortbb said:

Yes Absolute are great for PA, crap for bass (the are just up the road from me. They have a proper big room (well much bigger than the average PUB) and you can really put the stuff through its paces. No ULEZ but £6000 in fuel from your area (actually the roads are really good most of the way so your fuel economy will be good).

For those that don't know ULEZ is the Ultra Low Emission Zone in London where poluting vehicles pay extra, over and above the Congestion Charge.

[Phil Starr]

On 05/04/2022 at 09:51, Al Krow said:

- why compact: we'd be looking to use these as standalone without a sub for use without any backline for bass. So my not taking a bass rig vs going from RCF 310As --> RCF 312As makes the set up much more compact; critically the RCF 310As can't really handle low end bass in a full band mix well enough for my liking;

- why "budget": obviously what counts as budget is going to vary from band to band, but £700 new for 2 x RCF 312A is a lot less than the 2 x RCF 732A or 2 x QSC K12.2 alternatives which are often considered to be gold standard. They're also a lot less than an RCF Evox 8 system which I'm eyeing up for our main PA to replace the 310A set up having heard it in action with @Paul S's band and being very impressed by a "backline PA" system.

Hi Al,

just for context we currently use ART310's for small gigs and rehearsals and have a second pair as monitors. For most gigs we use  QSC'S but I have subs for the bigger gigs. They only get a run out once a year probably. My duo go out with no backline and the combination of the floor monitors and ART310's are more than adequate for bass.

 

It's worth looking at the maximum output for the RCF speakers you are only getting 1db extra when you move to the 312 and 2db for the 315. You'll get a better low end of course by going for bigger speakers but it's not a big increase in sound levels if you stick within the ART 3 series. Something like the ART 912 promises an extra 3db as well as a better bass driver. I take the output figures with a pinch of salt of course but within a manufacturers ratings there should be enough consistency to make decisions. That makes your 'budget system' £1,000 but that's a saving over QSC's or ART732's.

 

Is your plan for no backline or is this just going for a fully mixed system?

Edited April 9, 2022 by Phil Starr

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

Hi Al,

just for context we currently use ART310's for small gigs and rehearsals and have a second pair as monitors. For most gigs we use  QSC'S but I have subs for the bigger gigs. They only get a run out once a year probably. My duo go out with no backline and the combination of the floor monitors and ART310's are more than adequate for bass.

 

It's worth looking at the maximum output for the RCF speakers you are only getting 1db extra when you move to the 312 and 2db for the 315. You'll get a better low end of course by going for bigger speakers but it's not a big increase in sound levels if you stick within the ART 3 series. Something like the ART 912 promises an extra 3db as well as a better bass driver. I take the output figures with a pinch of salt of course but within a manufacturers ratings there should be enough consistency to make decisions. That makes your 'budget system' £1,000 but that's a saving over QSC's or ART732's.

 

Is your plan for no backline or is this just going for a fully mixed system?

Cheers Phil! For the portable rig ('cos drums and PA all in one car) the ambition is no backline. 

[Phil Starr]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers Phil! For the portable rig ('cos drums and PA all in one car) the ambition is no backline. 

In-ears?

[Al Krow]

6 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

In-ears?

A whole different world of cost and pain, haha! 

 

Aside: I'm actually leaning to the neat @Paul S solution for our main rig of using a "back line" PA with RCF Evox8. No need for IEMs, or in fact any form of monitors! Bingo! But it's not particularly "budget" hence not considering it for our spare "portable" PA set up.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Al Krow

[Phil Starr]

Is it worth thinking differently then? You want a compact PA because your current PA is too bulky but the Evox is fairly compact, those subs aren't a lot bigger than a 312. You want a relatively low cost solution becuse you are about to buy an expensive Evox system but the £1000 for your compact PA could be used to bring forward the purchase of the Evox.

 

Have you tried the 310's as a PA? They are pretty capable and you'll only be using it for the smaller venues. If you aren't using backline or in-ears how are you proposing to have monitoring on-stage?

[Happy Jack]

34 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

A whole different world of cost and pain, haha! 

 

Aside: I'm actually leaning to the neat @Paul S solution for our main rig of using a "back line" PA with RCF Evox8. No need for IEMs, or in fact any form of monitors! Bingo! But it's not particularly "budget" hence not considering it for our spare "portable" PA set up.

 

 

So I'm sitting there thinking, "this is the weirdest cover of Tore Down that I've ever heard ...".

 

[Al Krow]

@Phil StarrAh no sorry. The driver for this is for a budget second PA that can be kept by another band member so that we can do certain gigs with just one PA and no backline and I can rock up with my bass and pedal board on public transport and plug in. 

 

If the 310As could get us there as the spare PA that would be great, but they can't really handle bass in a full band. I'm hoping a pair of 312As will be able to, and there have been some very neat ideas earlier on the thread about having one on PA cab on the floor and rear facing,which would also double up as backline. 

[Mottlefeeder]

42 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

... Aside: I'm actually leaning to the neat @Paul S solution for our main rig of using a "back line" PA with RCF Evox8. No need for IEMs, or in fact any form of monitors! Bingo! ...

 

 

My current band has a history history of putting the main pa speakers at the back of the stage because they couldn't fit a monitor speaker in the car with everything else.

After a few gigs where I was standing beside a head height speaker, I volunteered to bring a monitor speaker to every gig I played in. 

It's also worth bearing in mind that the mix you want in the monitor may not be the mix that is going out to FoH.

David

[bassfan]

On 08/04/2022 at 17:33, Al Krow said:

Perhaps worth mentioning that if you're after a BIG sound rather than the portability compromise we're looking for, then whilst I like the sound we manage to produce with our gear as a band a lot, it's not in the same class as @bassfan's 24K crew's set up. Now that is a gloriously BIG sound! 

That’s very kind of you to say so! It’s a heavy beast to! 

[Al Krow]

On 09/04/2022 at 16:18, Phil Starr said:

Is it worth thinking differently then? You want a compact PA because your current PA is too bulky but the Evox is fairly compact, those subs aren't a lot bigger than a 312. You want a relatively low cost solution becuse you are about to buy an expensive Evox system but the £1000 for your compact PA could be used to bring forward the purchase of the Evox.

 

Have you tried the 310's as a PA? They are pretty capable and you'll only be using it for the smaller venues. If you aren't using backline or in-ears how are you proposing to have monitoring on-stage?

 

Phil - took the plunge with putting my bass through the RCF 310As (on poles) on Friday night. 5 piece band with bass, 2 guitars, 2 vox and acoustic drums. Pop/rock covers.

I went directly into the PA mixer via Boss WL-20s wireless. No pedals, no bass rig.

Guitars (with pedals) and vox also directly into the PA i.e. no other back-line amplification.

Single monitor for vox and guitars only - Alto TS308.

No IEMs - other than for drummer who was in charge of the mixer.

Decent sized pub venue, perhaps 50 or so up and dancing in front of us with plenty of punters seated around the dancefloor.

 

The overall sound was very nicely balanced. I stood behind the PA next to drummer but didn't have any issues hearing myself just from the dispersion from the Tops. Bass tone was very decent, nothing special positively or negatively. Band are all very happy that the light portable set up will work well for us going forward for similar sized, less accessible venues where drummer can take both his kit plus PA in his car and the rest of us can make use of public transport to get across London.

End result - we had one of our very best gigs ever! But that really was all about how tightly we played, including improving our song flow, and very little to do with the quality of my bass tone. Pub manager was effusive and looks like we will be getting a residency there; we also got asked to play a wedding gig in June off the back of it.

 

So...all this angst-ing over bass gear and tone I've spent countless hours on this forum debating over the past 8 years, rather than spending the time far more productively becoming a better bass player, eh? Ah well, I've got my priorities sorted in the end.

[EBS_freak]

Finally.

[EBS_freak]

(PS, if you aren't getting what you want bass tone wise, it's because you aren't going through any pres (and power amp if you are looking for sag) that deliberately colour the tone - and you haven't got and speaker emulation going on. If you do want to address this, stick a modeller on your pedal board that can add that colouration). (That goes for guitarists too. Once you got the portability of this down, you'll never want to entertain traditional rigs again).

 

Add a P2 and an XLR cable into your gig bag and some IEMs - and you'll be sorted.