Compact budget PA set-up to put bass through (without back-line).

[Phil Starr]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

So...all this angst-ing over bass gear and tone I've spent countless hours on this forum debating over the past 8 years, rather than spending the time far more productively becoming a better bass player, eh? Ah well, I've got my priorities sorted in the end.

Ha ha, if I was wiser I'd spend less time talking about speakers on BassChat and more actually playing through them

 

I'm pleased it's worked out, Last week we did two gigs with our ART310's, bass, guitar and two vox. I used a BD121 and guitar used a ZoomG1xon for a bit of shaping. It's just so easy and the sound you get out is lovely but importantly consistent. Mixer is an RCF M18 and I've got settings saved so all I need to do is load the scene from the last rehearsal. That was my duo, today we had a full band rehearsal and again just call up the settings saved from the last gig and away you go. 

 

Singer and I shared a radio link as I have three belt pack receivers both had in ears and for her it was her first experience, you should have seen her face! I started her off with over ears and swapped for some ZS10's halfway through. She's ordered a pair and I don't think she'll ever go back. Suddenly our guitarist wants to join in and our new drummer too. I'm expecting to go all in-ears within the next couple of months.

 

You'll work out yourself how far to push the ART310's, you know they won't do everything but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by what they will cope with. I do like a happy ending

[EBS_freak]

One by one, I'll convince you all

[Al Krow]

Update on the Evox 8. Popped into West End DJ to try that model out with bass guitar and our lead vox in tow. Disappointingly couldn't get away from the feedback we were getting and the store team confirmed that was their own expectation where a mic was placed in front of these PA speakers, which was a real shame, particularly as had not encountered any similar feedback issues when going to see Paul S's crew (see earlier post).

 

Since my last post on this thread, I've sold my 310As to our drummer who will have as a back up PA for my hard-to-get-to by car gigs and for him to use in his other projects. So I currently find myself PA-less for the first time is nearly a decade and eyeing up a pair of RCF 932As as a possible replacement for our main band PA and for me to put my bass through, which is most typically likey to be without the aid of a sub. 

[Woodinblack]

Well, I went through another cycle of thinking about the evox. I almost bought one to try out, was going to get a b stock one from PMT (which they have priced pretty high, and had reduced their full stock and then increased again), but it was cracked and it didn't seem worth it. Then someone local was selling a pair for 1k, but sold them while I was out at a gig.

 

Dithered too much, seems a lot of money.

 

Then I spent last night lookng at the reviews of Maui 11 G2s..

 

But the thing that I am thinking of that with the 2xTS212s and the 12" bass sub, on sunday at the open air gig we had a great sound and that whole lot cost less than £500.

[EBS_freak]

53 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Update on the Evox 8. Popped into West End DJ to try that model out with bass guitar and our lead vox in tow. Disappointingly couldn't get away from the feedback we were getting and the store team confirmed that was their own expectation where a mic was placed in front of these PA speakers, which was a real shame, particularly as had not encountered any similar feedback issues when going to see Paul S's crew (see earlier post).

 

Since my last post on this thread, I've sold my 310As to our drummer who will have as a back up PA for my hard-to-get-to by car gigs and for him to use in his other projects. So I currently find myself PA-less for the first time is nearly a decade and eyeing up a pair of RCF 932As as a possible replacement for our main band PA and for me to put my bass through, which is most typically likey to be without the aid of a sub. 

932s wont give the low end extension you probably want without a sub...

[krispn]

Wouldn’t one typically encounter feedback or be more likely

to if the speakers are behind the mic’s? From experience once the mic is aimed in the general direction of a speaker is when I’ve always encountered issues in the past be it rehearsals or gigs. I recall going to play a gig (local bands as a teenager) and the guys had set the speakers up at the back of the stage so “everyone in the band could hear the singer” and our first job was to move them. The other band said it would be fine, plugged in the mic’s and it howled like a a Hammer Horror!

[Woodinblack]

17 minutes ago, krispn said:

Wouldn’t one typically encounter feedback or be more likely

to if the speakers are behind the mic’s?

 

The line arrays have an anti-feedback thing so they can be put on the back

[Al Krow]

47 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

932s wont give the low end extension you probably want without a sub...

I guess I could take a compact portable back line, eg the GK Legacy 800W combos look really neat, to support the PA for those gigs where more low end is needed? 

[Al Krow]

19 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

The line arrays have an anti-feedback thing so they can be put on the back

Agreed. It was the 12" floor speakers that seemed to be the main source of boominess / feedback with Evox 8.

 

The store guys also commented about the line arrays having a relatively narrow-band frequency range. They clearly weren't intent on selling the unit to me, haha! 

Edited June 28, 2022 by Al Krow

[krispn]

21 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

The line arrays have an anti-feedback thing so they can be put on the back

Good to know as we might be looking at some pa kit down the line 

[krispn]

5 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I guess I could take a compact portable back line, eg the GK Legacy 800W combos look really neat, to support the PA for those gigs where more low end is needed? 

Not tempted by the IEM route? I was gonna suggest the fender rumble 500 combo as it’s a great lightweight combo. 

[Woodinblack]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

The store guys also commented about the line arrays having a relatively narrow-band frequency range. They clearly weren't intent on selling the unit to me, haha! 

 

I was sort of put off by a youtube video from a guy that hires PAs, pointing out that due to the length of the evox j8 head, only frequencies above 2.2k were beam formed, so frequencies between 800hz / 2.2k would be down over a distance as they don't get the directionality of the high frequencies, which obviously makes sense.

 

 

[Woodinblack]

32 minutes ago, krispn said:

Not tempted by the IEM route? I was gonna suggest the fender rumble 500 combo as it’s a great lightweight combo. 

 

That wouldn't really help the audience unless you gave everyone some IEMs!

 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, krispn said:

Not tempted by the IEM route? I was gonna suggest the fender rumble 500 combo as it’s a great lightweight combo. 

 

Not ruled out IEMs and the singers are actively considering them already, but as Woody jokingly rightly pointed out, it's kinda a separate issue to choice of PA speakers.

[krispn]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

That wouldn't really help the audience unless you gave everyone some IEMs!

 

I was thinking more about for the bass minimising the need for an amp, one less box to carry so a bit more room for pa boxes in car boots. To be fair I wasn’t very clear 😝

A pair of KZ10’s for about £40 sound decent and reduce the need for a backline bass rig but I’m off topic. As you were gents. 

Edited June 28, 2022 by krispn

[Al Krow]

Just now, krispn said:

I was thinking more about for the bass minimising the need for an amp, one less box to carry so a bit more room for pa boxes in car boots. To be fair I wasn’t very clear 😝

 

Ah ok - yeah. Drummer in one of my two bands is dead set against IEMs and prefers analogue kit; separately feedback from a couple of bass buddies is that IEMs are least good for the bass player in terms of the individual band members (EBS may be able to jump in to correct that if it's not a fair comment), so we would need to combine with a new digital desk and being able to tailor our output individually, but then still need a monitor for him. 

 

So I think we'll kick off with the singers having IEMs and carry on using our existing Allen & Heath analogue desks. I find I can hear the bass pretty well from just standing near a PA with our small 310As. The backline combo was really addressing EBS's point of the 932As lacking bass extension - but I'll give them a try out first: it maybe that they're fine for our more limited needs.

[Woodinblack]

Me and the drummer in my band have IEMs. The singer dances round the front of the stage generally in front of the PA so can hear everything.

The guitarist was complaining about the fact he couldn't hear the singer. He doesn't want to use IEMs.

[krispn]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Me and the drummer in my band have IEMs. The singer dances round the front of the stage generally in front of the PA so can hear everything.

The guitarist was complaining about the fact he couldn't hear the singer. He doesn't want to use IEMs.

 

We all use them but I still take the bass amp for the feel and the iems help keep the ears protected in their own way. 

I think the biggest drawback is the ‘feel’ but those KZ’s have 5 drivers per side and cover the lows very well. It could be a matter of quality of ear buds rather than it being worse for bass but we all have differing expectations or needs. As ever it’s balancing the need of the many with the wants of the few. Same goes for pa choices etc 

[Woodinblack]

2 minutes ago, krispn said:

I think the biggest drawback is the ‘feel’ but those KZ’s have 5 drivers per side and cover the lows very well. It could be a matter of quality of ear buds rather than it being worse for bass but we all have differing expectations or needs. As ever it’s balancing the need of the many with the wants of the few. Same goes for pa choices etc 

 

I have a backbeat so I don't miss the lows particularly (but then have to contend with the feedback).  I have a bass cab to do the bass, the PA does everything else. Except when I take the sub then I put some bass through it. If I had a decent PA that could take everything I would be happy to not have the bass cabs, but not there yet.

 

Or maybe I am - never tried it! Maybe if I got a column speaker to put the vocals through then the guitar / bass / drums could go through the rest of the PA.

[krispn]

One of my mates has some Bose array stuff and some other kits too. He’s willing to loan us the Bose and see if we can get away with that for vocals initially. We’ve not fully had the pa discussion yet but if this project takes off it’ll be something we’ll need to chat about!

[Woodinblack]

I looked into the bose L1s, and the option is either an underpowered expensive L1 Compact, or a more powerful and eye wateringly expensive L1 with some numbers afer it. However, on all the youtube PA videos I have seen in the last week, which is an awful lot, if you are not a singer songwriter playing acoustic guitar in a coffee shop who doesn't mind a lack of reverb, there is no comparison that the L1s win, unless you take money out of any equation.

I would still like to hear them though - we played with a group that had the only L1 S2s with some of the B2 bass bins, and swore by them, although I still noticed the guitarist had a 4x12 cab with a marshal and the bassist had a 4x10 harkte with some large amp on it, so I guess they were just doing vocals and maybe bass drum.

[JPJ]

Our PA is probably ‘small’ but handles the full band (drums, bass, 2 x guitars, 3xVOX, 1 x fiddle). The guitars and bass all have back line so I pan the signal in the PA to even things up out front. The PA comprises 2 x EV ZLX15P’s + 2 x Peavey Pro15 powered subs with a Behringer XR18 on desk duties and a Driverack for crossover/speaker management.
One advantage of 2 subs is they provide a much sturdier platform for pole mounting the tops than stands and is more ‘drunk punter’proof’ in my experience. In reality, despite the ZLX’s being marketed at 1000W, we’ve probably got closer to 600W per side flat out, but this is more than enough for the venues we play where we are required to provide the PA. 

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, JPJ said:

Our PA is probably ‘small’ but handles the full band (drums, bass, 2 x guitars, 3xVOX, 1 x fiddle). The guitars and bass all have back line so I pan the signal in the PA to even things up out front. The PA comprises 2 x EV ZLX15P’s + 2 x Peavey Pro15 powered subs with a Behringer XR18 on desk duties and a Driverack for crossover/speaker management.

 

Yeh, that is way bigger than mine and you still have a back line - would be nice to get something that could replace that.

[Phil Starr]

On 28/06/2022 at 09:54, Woodinblack said:

 

The line arrays have an anti-feedback thing so they can be put on the back

 

On 28/06/2022 at 08:28, Al Krow said:

Update on the Evox 8. Popped into West End DJ to try that model out with bass guitar and our lead vox in tow. Disappointingly couldn't get away from the feedback we were getting and the store team confirmed that was their own expectation where a mic was placed in front of these PA speakers, which was a real shame, particularly as had not encountered any similar feedback issues when going to see Paul S's crew (see earlier post).

 

 

On 28/06/2022 at 09:54, Woodinblack said:

 

The line arrays have an anti-feedback thing so they can be put on the back

 

On 28/06/2022 at 10:12, Al Krow said:

The store guys also commented about the line arrays having a relatively narrow-band frequency range. They clearly weren't intent on selling the unit to me, haha! 

 

On 28/06/2022 at 10:41, Woodinblack said:

 

I was sort of put off by a youtube video from a guy that hires PAs, pointing out that due to the length of the evox j8 head, only frequencies above 2.2k were beam formed, so frequencies between 800hz / 2.2k would be down over a distance as they don't get the directionality of the high frequencies, which obviously makes sense.

 

The moral of the story is don't believe the store guys or You Tubers.

 

There is nothing magic about these line source/column speakers They've been in existence since at least the 1930's and knowledge of them since pretty much the invention of the loudspeaker. It's part of the physics of sound that any sound producing object starts to beam the sound as the radiating diameter approaches the wavelength of the sound. Basically low sounds are omnidirectional and high sounds are beamed. That's one of the reasons why tweeters are little and why some purists don't like conventional 4x10's.

 

Putting lots of tiny speakers in a long line means that they are collectively small in the horizontal direction and the mid's/ highs will disperse evenly around the room, and because there are lots of speakers they can be loud. In the vertical plane they cancel off axis and behave like a big speaker. The net effect is that they radiate a predictable flat but wide beam into the room. For most venues that's pretty ideal. Horns work differently but basically they can be shaped to funnel the sound in a predictable way and you have a lot of control of direction. there are long throw horns with a narrow beam and short throw horns and every shade in between. A typical PA speaker will have a 90x60 horn, fairly short throw and fairly wide angle horizontally but more restricted vertically, you don't want to waste sound bouncing off the ceiling. 

 

Beaming is a thing, but it isn't good or bad, just appropriate. If it's too narrow you will only hear a decent mix in line with the speaker, too wide and the sound disperses quickly and you get multiple pathways to your ears and muddled sound.

 

If your mic is picking up the sound from the speakers it will always eventually feedback, the question is when. The early Bose systems just weren't very loud but their ads made a feature of being able to put the PA at the back. Like the 'drink 2l of water a day' some daft advertising campaigns just take off. Drink when you are thirsty guys! A wide flat dispersion and a smooth frequency response helps avoid feedback but keeping the speakers away from the mic helps more. 

[Woodinblack]

Well, I ummed and ahhed on the Evox j8s, then two appeared on ebay local to me for £1k, which on the grand scheme of things is a good deal, but it is still a lot of money, so I thought about it and went to a gig, and they were sold.

But then I had a gig with my two Alto 212s and behringer subwoofer, with the kit miked up and through the PA, and some bass, and the sound was great, everyone liked it* so that left me wondering again.

Then PMT had a J8 that was cheap as it was a b-stock and agreed to make it cheaper which I was going to go for, but it turned out the plastic was broken, and as at the above gig I had to take the PA off the pole in the subwoofer as it was vibrating with one of the toms, I thought that wasn't good, especially at only 630.

Then I discovered the MAUI 11s and 28s and have now watched all the videos of that.

Then I reached decision paralysis!

 

* apart from one woman who said our singer wasn't clear as when she had seen Queen at live aid, freddy mercury sounded a lot clearer. So thats me told.

 

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

The moral of the story is don't believe the store guys or You Tubers.

 

 It's part of the physics of sound that any sound producing object starts to beam the sound as the radiating diameter approaches the wavelength of the sound. Basically low sounds are omnidirectional and high sounds are beamed.

 

That is what he was refering too. The column length of the.. umm column gives the lowest wavelength that will beam. Below that it is omnidirectional. So therefore if all your power above (say) 2k is being beamed horizintally by the colum, and all the sound below is just omnidirectional, when you get further back, there will be less of the lower frequency sound as it has gone everywhere. They have a subwoofer part, but that only goes up to below 1k on the evox, so therefore at distance, the part between the 1k and the 2k drops off before the part above the 2k.

 

I guess that is why I was thinking of the MAUIs, as the column length of those is a lot longer. And they a bit cheaper, and made of wood and metal instead of plastic.

But now I am no longer able to think, so no issues.