Being in a band with keys.........

[Jonesy]

I was wondering how many of the collective hive mind here at BC play in a band, or regularly play with keys players?  How do you all get on stopping the sound becoming sloppy and deal with being heard? Or have  you had any other problems that you have to deal with?

 

Just as a bit of a back story.....

 

My blues band used to just be bass, drums and guitar. With this setup I was playing an SG with flats, using a Solidgold FX Beta as a preamp (which basically adds more warm goo to a sound that is already warmer and gooier than liquid fudge) and loads of low end rumble that you could probably feel more than hear - it was a lovely warm mush. I was happy with this and it complemented the overall sound as the guitarist has a really piercing tone - a really glassy strat + tube screamer. 

 

We've recently got a great keys player on board and our first practice the other week went well, but I struggled to hear myself and got lost in the mix quite a bit. 

 

Roll on practice number 2 - P bass and rounds & Tech 21 VT preamp. This does the trick and I've retained the low end, but the extra mids from the Pbass and zing from the rounds help to declutter the overall sonic space we're covering as a band. Perfect! Sort of......

 

Ideally, I'd like to stick flats on the P bass, but I'm just a bit worried that I'll get lost again and would rather not waste the money on new strings and setup if it won't work. Has anyone else had any similar issues? Do you reckon a P with flats will be OK with keys? I suppose I could just EQ out anything that competes with the keys if I did change to flats......

 

I potentially have answered my own question here........anyway, just interested in what you lot think 😁 

 

[chris_b]

I play with keys on many gigs, different players in different bands, but they are all good at their job. Most of them are professional players and they know the score when playing in a band.

 

I only have 1 problem with 1 player, I can't get him to stop playing boogie woogie bass lines on rock and roll songs. That's the problem when guys are used to playing on their own, some of them can't stop providing the bass lines. This is only one player, so I work around him.

 

It's understandable you're having a problems with a new keys player. Your sound and his now have to co-exist and any "issues" will be highlighted. IMO sorry, but I wouldn't call a "warm mush" a good bass sound in any band. When combining with a full range instrument you should have a clean, well defined and tight sound. And you need a conversation with the keys player about boundaries.

[bass_dinger]

It perhaps won't help you, but in my band, I don't have keys in my stage mix.  That way, I am not distracted by what they are doing.  The house mix is different of course - the Sound Engineer can decide how best to weave keys and bass together.  For all I know, he may have switched me off in the room! hahah

 

I also play in a way that a keyboard player can't - so, driving bass riffs, hammer-ons, slides, melodic riffs, and plucking different parts of the string for different tones. 

 

An active bass and steel roundwounds help to cut through the mix.  

 

 

[Greg Edwards69]

Sounds like your keyboardist need an hpf.

 

On of my guitarists doubles on keys.  Both his keyboard and helix for his guitar go into his Yamaha DXR10 frfr speaker on stage and then a mix out to FOH.  Cruicially, he engages the hpf on the DXR10 and it's low cut again on the FOH mixer.  I have no problems being hear down the low end.

[Jonesy]

11 minutes ago, chris_b said:

I play with keys on many gigs, different players in different bands, but they are all good at their job. Most of them are professional players and they know the score when playing in a band.

 

I only have 1 problem with 1 player, I can't get him to stop playing boogie woogie bass lines on rock and roll songs. That's the problem when guys are used to playing on their own, some of them can't stop providing the bass lines. This is only one player, so I work around him.

 

It's understandable you're having a problems with a new keys player. Your sound and his now have to co-exist and any "issues" will be highlighted. IMO sorry, but I wouldn't call a "warm mush" a good bass sound in any band. When combining with a full range instrument you should have a clean, well defined and tight sound. And you need a conversation with the keys player about boundaries.

 

Thanks for the tips!

 

We've only had 2 jams together and we've talked about not treading on each others toes in what we play and the space we take up. We're both really open to changing what we do to improve the song overall, so I don't think we'll have any issues there. It's not so much that we're playing the same sort of lines, it was more I wasn't cutting through and was getting lost in the mix. 

 

Maybe I went a bit overboard with describing my own tone - it wasn't a complete muddy mess. I was in the ball park of Andy Fraser/Jack Bruce/Felix Pappalardi (just without their talent). To me (and the rest of the band) it was perfect for what I wanted and without keys to play with, but definitely on the mushier side of things and it could be a tone you hate! 

 

 

 

1 minute ago, bass_dinger said:

It perhaps won't help you, but in my band, I don't have keys in my stage mix.  That way, I am not distracted by what they are doing.  The house mix is different of course - the Sound Engineer can decide how best to weave keys and bass together.  For all I know, he may have switched me off in the room! hahah

 

I also play in a way that a keyboard player can't - so, driving bass riffs, hammer-ons, slides, melodic riffs, and plucking different parts of the string for different tones. 

 

An active bass and steel roundwounds help to cut through the mix.  

 

 

 

Hahaha, yeah, I'd rather not leave myself at the complete mercy of the sound engineer (even though we all are anyway!).

 

Hmmmm, I think an active bass and steels would definitely help cut through.........but I'm just not an active player. There's something just too 'modern' sounding in their tone for me and I'm after a more traditional warm/tubey/bluesy tone.

 

Good tips on the style of playing. One thing that that has jogged my memory on - we recorded a version of 'Going Down' and it was pretty hard to pick me out until I kicked in with the fills. That tune is naturally pretty root notey anyway, but as soon as I broke away from that it was definitely easier to pick me out.

 

 

[Jonesy]

3 minutes ago, Greg Edwards69 said:

Sounds like your keyboardist need an hpf.

 

On of my guitarists doubles on keys.  Both his keyboard and helix for his guitar go into his Yamaha DXR10 frfr speaker on stage and then a mix out to FOH.  Cruicially, he engages the hpf on the DXR10 and it's low cut again on the FOH mixer.  I have no problems being hear down the low end.

 

 

Ahhh, I'll investigate and chat to him about it.

 

Thanks!

[Old Horse Murphy]

I've always tied their left hand behind their back 

[TimR]

I agree with the hpf. Just turn down all his bass knobs on his monitor amp. 

 

But ideally you need to start thinking about your song arrangements more closely together. Rather than saying "Don't do this." you need to work together to find something that works on each different song.

 

Sometimes the keys will be glad that they don't have to use their left hand (certainly some I've played with have said it's good not to have to play everything all the time.) Or maybe program bottom half of keys for string pads up an octave etc and just thicken the sound with one chord per bar type playing. 

Edited April 13, 2022 by TimR

[peteb]

1 hour ago, Jonesy said:

I potentially have answered my own question here........anyway, just interested in what you lot think 😁 

 

 

I think that you have done just that. I'm sure that a P bass with rounds will be just what you need and you just have to be a bit more aware about your EQ to work around the keys player. 

 

[fretmeister]

I play with a piano player, 2 bari saxes, and a trombone. (and the rest of the band)

 

That's a lot of congestion at the low end. It all comes down to the arrangement. Sometimes that is everybody playing the same thing, sometimes it's completely different parts.

 

For that band I'm usually using a Duck Dunn sort of tone. Not much really low bass, but with a lot of low and medium mids. Not much treble. 

I figure that if Duck worked it out then that was the right way to go!

Edited April 13, 2022 by fretmeister

[pbasspecial]

Occasionally I’ll strategically place the set list over the lower left hand side of his keys just to remind him where he should play 😂

[Jonesy]

27 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

I think that you have done just that. I'm sure that a P bass with rounds will be just what you need and you just have to be a bit more aware about your EQ to work around the keys player. 

 

 

Yeah, I reckon the P with rounds is the way forward. I'm just kinda gutted because I really love the SG. I could whack some rounds on it and see if that helps I guess. Or maybe keep an eye out for a Mustang......

 

11 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I play with a piano player, 2 bari saxes, and a trombone. (and the rest of the band)

 

That's a lot of congestion at the low end. It all comes down to the arrangement. Sometimes that is everybody playing the same thing, sometimes it's completely different parts.

 

For that band I'm usually using a Duck Dunn sort of tone. Not much really low bass, but with a lot of low and medium mids. Not much treble. 

I figure that if Duck worked out that was the right way to go!

 

I've been listening to loads of Duck Dunn and Tommy Shannon recently........they were definitely on to something!!

[Lozz196]

In my classic rock band we have bass, drums, guitar & keys. The keys player only plays what is on the recording on those songs which had keys, and then just adds in what is needed more as a rhythm instrument on those which didn’t. At the last rehearsal I tried my Sansamp and it wasn’t a success, the sound of the band was much better with just my steel rounds strung Precision into the studios Ampeg stack, lows dropped a bit for the room, highs boosted for a bit of clarity. I suppose it makes for a more supporting sound, but with potentially two lead instruments I figure that’s what I should be doing (tho Zep, Purple & Rainbow basslines aren’t simple plodders but any means).

[Jonesy]

7 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

In my classic rock band we have bass, drums, guitar & keys. The keys player only plays what is on the recording on those songs which had keys, and then just adds in what is needed more as a rhythm instrument on those which didn’t. At the last rehearsal I tried my Sansamp and it wasn’t a success, the sound of the band was much better with just my steel rounds strung Precision into the studios Ampeg stack, lows dropped a bit for the room, highs boosted for a bit of clarity. I suppose it makes for a more supporting sound, but with potentially two lead instruments I figure that’s what I should be doing (tho Zep, Purple & Rainbow basslines aren’t simple plodders but any means).

 

Was that with a BDDI? I tried the same and thought it was a bit too harsh, but the VT pedal was perfect.

 

Although, maybe not worth you looking into seeing as your playing through an Ampeg in the room 😁

[neepheid]

I play regularly with keys and I have no bother hearing myself.  Nickel rounds on either a G&L L-1000, G&L Tribute LB-100, Epiphone Jack Casady or Epiphone Les Paul Standard with EMG-HB and BQC.  If anything, I find the (now) active Les Paul bass to be the one I have the most bother with, vis a vis cutting through.

 

Mids.  More mids.  Sad face EQ.  Sounds crap on its own, sounds great in a live ensemble.  I find steels too zingy, flats too dull, half rounds too weird, nickel rounds give me a good balance between thump and zing.

[Chris2112]

Just one of these things, I'm afraid, when it comes to flats. Keys will produce a stronger, cleaner bass sound more easily than almost any bass rig but especially so when you're lumbered with mudbuckers and flats. Try some roundwounds and something with a bridge pickup or tell the guy on the keys to do one. 

[ezbass]

It's easy for a neck pickup or P bass tone to become lost in a dense mix that includes keys. This is where a J bass blend control favouring the bridge pickup, or a Stingray come into their own. I have found this even playing along to tracks at home. When I played in a keys heavy, 80s band, my solution was to use my J and MM types as described. There is another solution of course...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 13, 2022 by ezbass

[Rich]

I count myself as very lucky -- it's the same ivory-tinkler in both bands, and I've only ever once had to ask him to go easy on the old left hand. That was back when we first started playing together, and he's steered clear of it ever since. 

[Lozz196]

27 minutes ago, Jonesy said:

 

Was that with a BDDI? I tried the same and thought it was a bit too harsh, but the VT pedal was perfect.

 

Although, maybe not worth you looking into seeing as your playing through an Ampeg in the room 😁

Yes, the v2 version though so not quite as harsh or scooped. It just removed the fullness from the sound, although made each individual note stand out more. I’d reckon some toppy flats like Rotosounds or Chromes would work, which is in fact what I’m going to do at next rehearsal.

[Beedster]

10 minutes ago, ezbass said:

It's easy for a neck pickup or P bass tone to become lost in a dense mix that includes keys. This is where a J bass blend control favouring the bridge pickup, or a Stingray come into their own. I have found this even playing along to tracks at home. When I played in a keys heavy, 80s band, my solution was to use my J and MM types as described. There is another solution of course...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Love the note!

 

I played in pop bands in the 80's when keyboards suddenly became capable of doing anything and everything, which is why a bassist back then needed to play either/both slap and fretless - two things that most keyboards couldn't do - and why these are such a big part of 80's pop. If I had KB problems I'd be fighting back with a bit of really annoying slap or some out of tune fretless and start negotiating from there  

[Jonesy]

28 minutes ago, neepheid said:

I play regularly with keys and I have no bother hearing myself.  Nickel rounds on either a G&L L-1000, G&L Tribute LB-100, Epiphone Jack Casady or Epiphone Les Paul Standard with EMG-HB and BQC.  If anything, I find the (now) active Les Paul bass to be the one I have the most bother with, vis a vis cutting through.

 

Mids.  More mids.  Sad face EQ.  Sounds crap on its own, sounds great in a live ensemble.  I find steels too zingy, flats too dull, half rounds too weird, nickel rounds give me a good balance between thump and zing.

 

That's where I'm at at the mo, the PBass has D'Addario XL's on it and the VT is set as per the pic. I really wanted to move to flats, but sounds like I'm sticking with rounds. I'll maybe tweak my miss some more too.

 

 

 

26 minutes ago, Chris2112 said:

Just one of these things, I'm afraid, when it comes to flats. Keys will produce a stronger, cleaner bass sound more easily than almost any bass rig but especially so when you're lumbered with mudbuckers and flats. Try some roundwounds and something with a bridge pickup or tell the guy on the keys to do one. 

 

I'll maybe give rounds a go on the SG and see what happens. I love playing that bass and would like to get it back in the mix. When we first auditioned him a was playing a Ric with flats, so maybe that's worth a go too

[FinnDave]

2 hours ago, Old Horse Murphy said:

I've always tied their left hand behind their back 

Is that before or after severing the arm at the shoulder? Some just can't take a simple hint.

To be fair, the last keyboard player I was in a band with was very good at not treading on my toes (metaphorically), especially as we were always close together on stage and he was aware of the potential headache caused by an accidental swing of the bass.

[Roger2611]

Yodaclub has a great keys player, we don't get in each others way at all, if I fancy doing a bit of Peter Hook dusty end stuff she will drop in and cover the bottom end and as I come back into the lower register she will move up, I think it works really well and has got us plenty of radio play from our last few singles

[leschirons]

Played in a French band for 7 years with keyboards. He had to playing all the time. Most annoying.  Aparrently, the previous french bass player threatened to cut his left hand off. That appeared to cure the problem. However, I  fondly remember one cool summer night where in the break, I  popped outside to have a cigar, to find the keyboard player, both feet off the ground, pinned up against a wall by our harmonica player who hadn't managed to get a solo in for the entire first set.

 

[casapete]

1 hour ago, FinnDave said:

Is that before or after severing the arm at the shoulder? Some just can't take a simple hint.

To be fair, the last keyboard player I was in a band with was very good at not treading on my toes (metaphorically), especially as we were always close together on stage and he was aware of the potential headache caused by an accidental swing of the bass.

I always find that if at all possible it’s best to keep the keys and bass separate on stage (if you’re using amps/monitors etc.) That way you can avoid clashing over the low end stuff so much, although ultimately you both need to get together and decide how the songs are going to be played too.

I used to play with a pianist who delighted in regularly exploring the notes which were below those possible 

on my 4 string bass, so one day just before the first set we gaffer taped them up so he couldn’t use them. 

Think he got the message.