This Trace Elliot ELF never ceases to amaze me!!!!

[stewblack]

I forgot to pack an amp on Saturday. Age catching up on this poor old bassist.

Out came the Elf, which lives in my gig box with cables and stuff. 

The venue was enormous, the drummer loud, the guitarist playing through an amp , and through the PA and added to at least two of the monitors.

Ok so the Elf looked a little silly atop two Barefaced 15" cabs, but it never broke sweat. 

As the title of the thread clearly states, it never ceased to amaze.

[msb]

I recently picked up an Elf , I had read so many great reviews I was curious.A new shop opened in town and they had one. Managed to trade in an older amp I wasn’t using much , we were both happy. My only complaint is the fan is a bit loud. I can live with that. Great little rig. 
And then managed to get a great deal on a Darkglass Microtubes 200. About the size of the Elf but about an inch thicker. Might be a bit louder , richer , and with the drive options there’s a little more in it. It’s capable of delivering much more distortion than I’m going to need , but it can be subtle too. more options , more control. Quiet at home.

So I’m still spinning the knobs and bouncing between the two. Happy camper.

[ossyrocks]

Regarding the fan noise. The fan itself looks like a fairly standard fan you might find in a computer. If it is, then there should be multiple options for sourcing a higher quality and quieter fan to replace it. If someone can identify what fan it is, ie specs, then I'd be happy to try a replacement.

 

Rob

 

 

[ossyrocks]

I found another pic of the fan

[ezbass]

46 minutes ago, ossyrocks said:

I found another pic of the fan

You’d think that there’d be one in this lot https://cpc.farnell.com/c/electronic-electrical-components/fans-cooling-devices?searchref=searchlookahead

[Chienmortbb]

36 minutes ago, ossyrocks said:

Regarding the fan noise. The fan itself looks like a fairly standard fan you might find in a computer. If it is, then there should be multiple options for sourcing a higher quality and quieter fan to replace it. If someone can identify what fan it is, ie specs, then I'd be happy to try a replacement.

 

Rob

 

 

Be wary of claims of "quiet fans" many cut the noise by running the fans slower. There are two types of fan noise, one is turbulence, the blades disturbing the air and the other is vibration. In my empiric experience, vibration is the worse of the two. A better fan will vibrate less but it is the mechanical coupling with the chassis that causes most of the noise. I have used the Akasa mounts and they do reduce this mechanical vibration. Of course a better fan will also help. 

 

 

[BassAdder60]

To be fair the fan is a little noisy but in a band it matters none 

 

At home or studio it would be a pain 

 

 

[ossyrocks]

16 minutes ago, BassAdder60 said:

To be fair the fan is a little noisy but in a band it matters none 

 

At home or studio it would be a pain 

 

 

I agree. The fan doesn't bother me as I don't use it at home. 

[msb]

The fan stopped working on my GK RB200 , things heated up and the ICE power module got fried. At the time there were not that many other 200 watt mini amps. I looked for a replacement and decided the RB200 was exactly what I wanted. I got it repaired. 
So I’m reassured whenever I hear a fan come on today. The sound does not bother me. But the Elf fan is loud , and starts right up.

[Chienmortbb]

19 hours ago, msb said:

The fan stopped working on my GK RB200 , things heated up and the ICE power module got fried. At the time there were not that many other 200 watt mini amps. I looked for a replacement and decided the RB200 was exactly what I wanted. I got it repaired. 
So I’m reassured whenever I hear a fan come on today. The sound does not bother me. But the Elf fan is loud , and starts right up.

The GK200 watt Amos/combos use the 50ASX2 BTL amp from ICEPower. The amp is rated  at 100 watts into 8 ohms and 170 watts into 4 ohms and they have little heat sinking on board. GK had real problems with the module early on as they did not cool it properly . If driven hard, as it is in a bass amp, it must have fan cooling. 

Ot should be said that this is a problem of GK’s making as the 50ASX2 was originally designed as a small stereo amp for consumer HiFi. 

 

 

 

[msb]

Many were saying that mini Class D amps were not repairable and were just to be tossed if any issues arose. I’m thankful to know an authorized repair guy , today it works perfectly although it’s been semi retired. I’ve picked up several other amps in that range since.

 

I love those little amps.

[bremen]

4 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

The GK200 watt Amos/combos use the 50ASX2 BTL amp from ICEPower. The amp is rated  at 100 watts into 8 ohms and 170 watts into 4 ohms and they have little heat sinking on board. GK had real problems with the module early on as they did not cool it properly . If driven hard, as it is in a bass amp, it must have fan cooling. 

Ot should be said that this is a problem of GK’s making as the 50ASX2 was originally designed as a small stereo amp for consumer HiFi. 

 

 

 

Why would gk not design their own amplifier? Why buy someone else's board and run it to the ragged edge? Bob Gallien is a real engineer, not a salesman.

 

Genuine question.

[msb]

Almost all of the Class D amps use the same power modules manufactured by ICE. They are simply very efficient at building them to a price point with a very low failure rate.
The characteristic sound of each manufacturer is determined by the goals of the designer , the preamp and tone stack construction. And they all sound very different. 
 

[Chienmortbb]

Ampeg went the "design your own" route and had to do around 10 revisions to the PF500 before it was more reliable. With class A/B amps, the power amp design was often a variant of a standard design published by semiconductor manufacturers. The same was true of early valve/tube amps.

 

The beauty of ICEPower or Powersoft is that the power section is tried and tested also already meets the major international safety, RFI and EMI (interference) standards. The problem you have, and several manufacturers have produced Bass amp model numbers implying higher power  outputs than specified by the module manufacturer. Of course it is possible. by careful design to extract a bit more from these modules. @agedhorse  has developed the techniques to squeeze 800 watts from the ICEPower 700AS1 module. Many other manufacturers use that module and include "800" in the model number when the maximum power at 4 ohms, with reasonable distortion, is 700 watts.

 

I am sure @agedhorse can explain this better than I can but hopefully that answers your question.

[bremen]

OK thanks. Having been involved in compliance and emc testing I know its a tiresome and expensive process. So Trace, GK and others basically can't afford it, deciding its less bother to buy them in pre-approved.

 

A bit sloppy though, not protecting them from death due to fan failure or user error?

[Downunderwonder]

I thought Elf power was Peavey homegrown.

[Chienmortbb]

19 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

I thought Elf power was Peavey homegrown.

Probably, Peavey have a wealth of experience designing solid state amps. ICEPower have some nice smaller modules now but they were not around when the Elf was designed.

[Merton]

9 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

I thought Elf power was Peavey homegrown.

Correct. Both Trace amps use Peavey designs, the TE1200 has a modified power section from one of the Peavey IPR series amps. I read somewhere recently that the Orange Terror is a home-grown power section too but can’t remember where!

[bremen]

All very incestuous. Next thing you know, Peugeot will be putting Ford engines in their cars.

[Chienmortbb]

18 minutes ago, bremen said:

All very incestuous. Next thing you know, Peugeot will be putting Ford engines in their cars.

I suspect your comment is a little tongue in cheek and that they already do. 

[bremen]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICEpower

 

Now I know!

[Chienmortbb]

18 minutes ago, bremen said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ICEpower

 

Now I know!

Add to the list of customers, Ashdown, Thomann/Harley Benton and more.

[bremen]

Should we start a new thread for this sort of discussion, interesting as it is to me and my fellow geeks it's a bit off topic.

 

 

[Stub Mandrel]

On 05/12/2023 at 13:30, MacDaddy said:

Just out of interest, and I know this is not what it's made for, but what is the loudest useable volume?

If you put it through a 4x10 could it keep up with 2 guitars and drums?

Easily.

[DGBass]

Some very interesting comments and points being made in the last few pages. Perhaps veering off topic slightly on occasion, but all still relevant to the general theme of small compact solid state amps like the Elf. Personally, one of the TE Elf's biggest selling points, eg its super compact size puts me off ever having one. The constantly running fan also has the thumbs down for me for use anywhere other than a gig. The diminutive size is however the spoiler. Any solid state amps i've ever used generate heat when in use, and the harder they are used the more heat. A very small case with limited airflow around the electronics is going to need a cooling fan, and even then its probably going to get hot in a gig situation because the fan is very small, especially if the amp is plugged into a 4 ohm cab and used to its full potential. Do ELF's get hot to the touch after a three hour gig? And if they do, I wonder how long it would take for them to suffer a heat fatigue related failure being used that way? I suppose the designers will have taken that into account, and someone will have decided an expected service life for a well gigged Elf. I have nothing but respect for Peavey in general terms, I've used a ton of their bass amp products over the years and if anything they have always been over engineered. That's why you will still find the like of 260C/MarkIII amps from the seventies still being gigged and still easily repairable.

 

Power ratings for class d amp technology has been mentioned and is something that intruigues me about how manufacturers market a product. Peavey have typically always been fairly open about power ratings, the Elf is quoted at 200w @4 ohms and also quotes a Total Harmonic Distortion figure of 1%.  Recently I had an Ampeg product qouted as 220W @ 4ohms 5% THD which if adjusted to 1% THD was around 160W. That's pure marketing imho. Ice Power modules are also a black art re- power ratings. The 50ASX2 BTL amp from ICE Power was mentioned. The manufacturer rates that 170W @ 4ohms 1% THD. I have an Eden Terra Nova which has this exact module and Eden sell the amp as 225W @ 4 ohms but no THD figure. The Terra Nova also has no cooling fan but is designed to have lots of air all around the Ice Module and a vented casing. Someone also referenced Ice Power 700AS1 modules being fitted to amps marketed as 800W. I have no doubts about Peavey's specs for the Elf, but i'm super curious how other amp builders squeeze so much extra power from standard IcePower class D stuff than IcePower rate their products can deliver at nominal voltages and in suggested operating conditions.  I'm sure there is someone who can explain where the extra class d power comes from once a standard module is fitted in a case!  Or is it all marketing hype? 700 watts at 4 ohms 1% THD or 800watts @ 4 ohms 5%THD?  Mesa as an example don't quote a THD figure for the Subway D800 amps that I can find on their sales specs. The TE1200 also doesn't spec a THD figure. Apologies for veering off topic slightly, and I'm guessing the great class d power rating and amp design debate has probably already taken place elsewhere on the forum. As @bremen mentions, a seperate thread about recent posts might be an interesting idea for any techies or curious BC ers. Are we all being diddled out of our watts these days?  I'm guessing most bass players don't care and just want to plug in and play. As a rule i've found its much more noticeable that a power rating may be not quite what it seems in small class d amps than larger ones. When you are talking about an 800 watt amp, no one is going to notice audibly if its actually only delivering 700 watts. In a 225W amp that is only delivering 170W that could be noticeable. From previous posts and praise though, it seems the Elf has honest watts coming out of it despite being so tiny, so well done Peavey for including a THD figure in your specs.