EBMM Joe Dart 2 is here

[Russ]

7 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

Not one of those names mean anything to me. I think I have heard of Tony Levin, probably here on Basschat, but I have no idea what he plays or who he plays with. The others have completely passed me by.

John Myung - bass player for Dream Theater (Grammy-winning prog metal band)

Tim Commerford - bass player for Rage Against The Machine

 

Probably not your genres of choice, but both massive in their fields with millions of record sales between them. 

[WinterMute]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I wonder why Levin hasn't got one.

 

Maybe after the OLP version he didn't want a full fat one.

I had an OLP Tony Levin and a fine, cheap instrument it was, I'd be very interested in a full blood TL SR5, I think a lot of people would.

[ezbass]

10 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

Levin - just about everybody! Most famous probably for Peter Gabriel or King Crimson

 

Ain't that the truth, probably not quite Lee Sklar level, but not far off. In terms of high profile, he also played for Paul Simon, John Lennon and Yes.

 

1 hour ago, Russ said:

I believe he uses stock Stingrays with no modifications. Although he had that custom 3-string they made for him many moons ago (I think he lost it in a fire). 

You're right about the fire and there's a story about him sending that one back to EB because of the warped truss rod (from the fire) and them saying there was a no smoking policy in California so couldn't work on it (it's longer than that and a lot more amusing when he tells it).

 

I'd say a 'Barbie Flesh' 'Ray 5 would be the obvious Levin signature, just like they did with the OLP.

[WinterMute]

1 minute ago, ezbass said:

I'd say a 'Barbie Flesh' 'Ray 5 would be the obvious Levin signature, just like they did with the OLP.

 

The OLP I had was natural, lovely bit of maple on the top, I'm not generally for an odd colour (wood or black is about my limit) but I think I'd make an exception for a Barbie Flesh TLMM.

[mcnach]

7 minutes ago, ezbass said:

Ain't that the truth, probably not quite Lee Sklar level, but not far off. In terms of high profile, he also played for Paul Simon, John Lennon and Yes.

 

You're right about the fire and there's a story about him sending that one back to EB because of the warped truss rod (from the fire) and them saying there was a no smoking policy in California so couldn't work on it (it's longer than that and a lot more amusing when he tells it).

 

I'd say a 'Barbie Flesh' 'Ray 5 would be the obvious Levin signature, just like they did with the OLP.

 

About that burnt bass, from Tony himself:

https://papabear.com/miscpages/fire.htm

[ezbass]

Just now, mcnach said:

 

About that burnt bass, from Tony himself:

https://papabear.com/miscpages/fire.htm

Well found, Sir!

 

If you can find a cheap copy (£40 on Amazon? I don't think so), I thoroughly recommend TL's, Beyond The Bass Clef. Lots of anecdotes, including the fire story, although many of them are probably there on the papabear website, in the archives.

[Baloney Balderdash]

2 hours ago, Russ said:

Joe Dart is a great player, but he's also kinda a "flavour of the month" player.

 

He's to the 2020s what Stuart Zender was to the 90s, without the multi-platinum worldwide fame. 

 

His sig bass should really have been a Sterling By Musicman instrument. There are very few MM players who have the profile to do a proper MM signature bass justice. Obviously John Myung has one, Tim Commerford has one, and they should really do one for Tony Levin. Joe Dart isn't a patch on those guys in terms of visibility. 

 

Tony Levin should most definitely had gotten one, and I strongly assume Joe Dart only did so because he is paying for the production costs himself.

 

Tony Levin is a legend, which can't hardly even remotely be said about Joe Dart.

 

Levin certainly more so than John Myung and Tim Commerford too.

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[OliverBlackman]

41 minutes ago, Russ said:

John Myung - bass player for Dream Theater (Grammy-winning prog metal band)

Tim Commerford - bass player for Rage Against The Machine

 

Probably not your genres of choice, but both massive in their fields with millions of record sales between them. 

All old bands that likely have a similar age audience. Vulfpeck are hardly new but a few decades younger than those mentioned.

[Sibob]

5 minutes ago, OliverBlackman said:

All old bands that likely have a similar age audience. Vulfpeck are hardly new but a few decades younger than those mentioned.

 

They also have a massive listener-base, regardless of what people think of streaming in general (separate conversation), even just on Spotify they have 1.3 million monthly listeners.

1.3 million (more actually) individuals around the world listen to him play bass every month.

 

Again, like them or not, THAT is what will get you a signature bass.

He's also pretty bloody good at big guitar.

And Jack is a very clever business mind, again, like him or not (you don't know him remember).

 

Quite frankly, I think they're doing what they need to have a career in music VERY well.

 

Si

[lemmywinks]

A lot of people seriously overestimating how well known Tony Levin is and as a result how well a sig model would sell.

[StingRayBoy42]

I really like it - beautifully simple.

I like MusicMans (MusicMen?) and I like Jazz Basses, so ... it's a yes from me.

I don't know enough about Joe Dart to dislike him, but he's a better Bass player than me, so I'll leave him to it 🙂

[lemmywinks]

2 minutes ago, Sibob said:

 

They also have a massive listener-base, regardless of what people think of streaming in general (separate conversation), even just on Spotify they have 1.3 million monthly listeners.

1.3 million (more actually) individuals around the world listen to him play bass every month.

 

Again, like them or not, THAT is what will get you a signature bass.

He's also pretty bloody good at big guitar.

And Jack is a very clever business mind, again, like him or not (you don't know him remember).

 

Quite frankly, I think they're doing what they need to have a career in music VERY well.

 

Si

 

Also just about everybody listening to RatM or Dream Theater knows the name of the bass player and what he looks like. Like you said - that's how a signature instrument happens.

[fretmeister]

42 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

Tony Levin should most definitely had gotten one, and I strongly assume Joe Dart only did so because he is paying for the production costs himself.

 

Tony Levin is a legend, which can't hardly even remotely be said about Joe Dart.

 

Levin certainly more so than John Myung and Tim Commerford too.

 

 

 

This is where you lose me.

 

Ask the under 40s or maybe even the under 45s and far more of them will know who Joe Dart is than Tony Levin.

To bass players aged 50+ Levin is one of those legendary old pros like Sklar, Flowers, Kaye, Jamerson, Dunn and so on. But do non-bassists know or care who they are? Not so much. Does the bloke in the street who loved the Sledgehammer video have a clue who was on it other than Peter Gabriel? No.

 

Did Levin ever get a sold out crowd at the MSG actually singing along to a bass instrumental? No. He's just not visible enough. 

JD is very visible in Vulfpeck and Stratton regularly calls him forward, makes him the main point of interest for various tunes. That's how the muggles know him as much as the bassists do.

 

Legendary status for musicians has always been about visibility more than ability.

 

 

 

 

[Eldon Tyrell]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

Zender - Jamiroquai

Myung - Dream Theater

Levin - just about everybody! Most famous probably for Peter Gabriel or King Crimson

Commerford - Rage Against the Machine AND Audioslave

Sorry, had to set the record (pun intended) straight 😉 

[FinnDave]

Zender - Jamiroquai - never heard of him/her/it

 

Myung - Dream Theater  - as above 

 

Levin - just about everybody! Most famous probably for Peter Gabriel or King Crimson These I know from the 70s

 

Commerford - Rage Against the Machine - never heard of him/her/it

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

Zender - Jamiroquai - never heard of him/her/it

 

Myung - Dream Theater  - as above 

 

Levin - just about everybody! Most famous probably for Peter Gabriel or King Crimson These I know from the 70s

 

Commerford - Rage Against the Machine - never heard of him/her/it

I’ve heard of all of the above but Levin only because I have an interest in bass. Your average music fan would have no idea who he was. I would go far as to say your average under 30 music fan won’t even have heard of King Crimson and likely only knows a couple of Gabriels tunes.

[Eldon Tyrell]

8 minutes ago, FinnDave said:

Commerford - Rage Against the Machine - never heard of him/her/it

What? You do not know Timmy C?

Man, you really need to Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!

[Baloney Balderdash]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

 

Legendary status for musicians has always been about visibility more than ability.

 

Not at far as I am concerned.

 

At least at that point it becomes legendary for being seen, not for being a bass player, and that would really just be famous/popular, not legendary really, as being seen requires little skill, at least non that makes you worthy of being considered legendary.

 

To be legendary it requires a craft or a skill one can be considered legendary at, it requires of you to be worthy to be written into a significant person in the history of the art or craft you master.

 

Legendary is all about the significance of one's contribution to the history of ones art/craft, regardless of how commonly known or popular said craft or art happens to be outside of circles of people who have a specific interest in that field of work. 

 

I very doubt any of Vulfpeck songs, at least this far will go down in the music history books as legendary, songs Tony Levin helped create and played bass on already are.

 

Tony Levin, while being most famous for King Crimson and Perter Gabriel, was and is by the way still a sought after and highly regarded session player as well.

 

Tony Levin is worthy of a lengthly chapter in the book of music history, having been active through decades and still is, Joe Dart maybe of a side note mention somewhere about the 2010's/2020's.

 

Ever heard of anyone say: "Man that guy is absolutely legendary for being popular, he sure hell know how to be seen, just amazingly famous, I don't know how he pulls it off, truely awe inspiring!"?

 

Whenever we are talking music, or any other craft or art for that matter, opinions on it from people who have little understanding of it doesn't really matter, at very least not in a historical context, past, as well as present and future, other than as a fairly insignificant side note.

 

People don't write history on the basis of being popular, unless you are unusually and extremely, significantly, popular, and that is not the case with Joe Dart, or Vulfpeck for that matter.

 

For instance I very much doubt that many people here in Denmark know who they are, unless specifically musically interested or specifically interested in bass, and I dare claim that then more would know Tony Levin is, or at least King Crimson or Peter Gabriel, and that regardless of age.

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[fretmeister]

The songs Levin etc have played are legendary and are well known.

That doesn't mean the fans of the songs can name the players. Certainly not for solo artists. More to the point, they don't care. They don't care if Peter Gabriel's backing band was Hendrix, Sting, Rich, and Mozart. Gabriel is the legend there, not the band members.

 

If legendary status was about ability then someone like Vic Wooten would be more popular than Sting. And he isn't.

Ed Sheeran -v- Andre Segovia.

Or if we are honest - any professional backing singer on earth -v- Ian Brown.

 

 

 

Edit. And I am talking about bass players. I think there’s a lot of under 45 bassists who won’t know who Levin is.

Edited July 27, 2022 by fretmeister

[Guest]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

The songs Levin etc have played are legendary and are well known.

That doesn't mean the fans of the songs can name the players. Certainly not for solo artists. More to the point, they don't care. They don't care if Peter Gabriel's backing band was Hendrix, Sting, Rich, and Mozart. Gabriel is the legend there, not the band members.

 

If legendary status was about ability then someone like Vic Wooten would be more popular than Sting. And he isn't.

Ed Sheeran -v- Andre Segovia.

Or if we are honest - any professional backing singer on earth -v- Ian Brown.

 

 

 

Edit. And I am talking about bass players. I think there’s a lot of under 45 bassists who won’t know who Levin is.

 

Fans of Peter Gabriel or any of the artists Tony Levin has played with, who are bass players - but have never heard of Tony Levin? You’ve lost me there

Truth be told, not many under 45 bass players are likely to to have the disposable income to fritter away 3 grand for a well put together but nevertheless factory bass with just volume controls and no options, are they? 

[fretmeister]

17 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

 

Fans of Peter Gabriel or any of the artists Tony Levin has played with, who are bass players - but have never heard of Tony Levin? You’ve lost me there

Truth be told, not many under 45 bass players are likely to to have the disposable income to fritter away 3 grand for a well put together but nevertheless factory bass with just volume controls and no options, are they? 

 

sorry, wasn’t very clear.

 

Fans of all ages non bassists don’t care who was behind PG.

Bassists under 45 won’t know who he is anyway.

 

The under 45s without kids are likely to be the ones who do buy posh instruments.

[warwickhunt]

To get back on track... that bass is still over rated/over priced.   

[drTStingray]

You’d be surprised who young people have heard of - I was talking to a young guitarist after a jam session where I provided the bass gear (he also plays bass and played my standard, natural Stingray). I told him about my Bongo basses and he asked if those were the ones with half of the fretboard in rosewood and half maple (which the current John Myung signature has) - the band I play in also uses a dep drummer who loves Dream Theatre - when he plays I always use one of my Bongos - which he gets very enthusiastic about!!

 

For those wanting a peach coloured Stingray 5 (as per Tony Levin), they are in the wild however very very rare - a member of this forum has several Musicman basses in the ‘custom’ colour, peach - including a hen’s teeth Sabre - the colour was available to order only for about 12 months, in 1988/9. 
 

It wouldn’t surprise me if EBMM doesn’t issue more ‘artist series’ basses in due course - after all there was the Cliff Williams Stingray also. I agree a Tony Levin one would be good - however the post 1992 ceramic pick up SR5 with phantom coil provides a better sound (and especially the single coil setting, which was a little noisy in the initial version with alnico pick up (though such issues don’t appear to have hurt Fender Jazz sales over the decades!!)

[drTStingray]

I thought Low End Lobster’s Joe Dart 11 had to be returned for rectification of the pick up output (I must say I haven’t followed this tbh so didn’t hear the outcome). 
 

In terms of the value of basses, I believe the Joe Dart signature basses have some level of higher quality materials and given the manner of Musicman production probably exceed the standard of a Fender team-built Custom Shop instrument - such as the Pino Precision - a very standard instrument with an upgraded neck which retails for significantly more than a JD signature. 
 

I hear all the wails of derision, Pino v JD but remember, as stated earlier in this thread, it all depends on the age group - and as this forum is reasonably heavily slanted in the direction of the geriatric, some of whom have never heard of JD. Many youngsters won’t have heard of Pino, Jack Bruce etc etc for that matter!! 
 

However some of us ‘getting towards geriatrics’ have heard of and admire all of them. I love Joe Dart’s playing - certainly aspire to the MSG concert tone, it’s superb (and entirely achievable I’ve found, using a passive Tim Commerford signature or standard 3 band Stingray). 

Edited July 27, 2022 by drTStingray

[Russ]

14 minutes ago, drTStingray said:

It wouldn’t surprise me if EBMM doesn’t issue more ‘artist series’ basses in due course - after all there was the Cliff Williams Stingray also. I agree a Tony Levin one would be good - however the post 1992 ceramic pick up SR5 with phantom coil provides a better sound (and especially the single coil setting, which was a little noisy in the initial version with alnico pick up (though such issues don’t appear to have hurt Fender Jazz sales over the decades!!)

I think they're right to keep their signature basses to a minimum. 

 

Apparently a big part of the reason Flea jumped from MM to Modulus back in the day because EBMM wouldn't make him a signature bass. And he's far, far more visible than Dart, Myung, Commerford, etc. 

 

Although, if they're considering it, I'll have a Bongo 6 in red and black.