Class D - diabolical

[Jack]

On 15/05/2022 at 17:19, alexa3020 said:

I agree. Plus if you ain’t lugging your stuff on stage, your invariably lugging someone else’s (I.e drummers)

 

Tell me about it. Going small was the stupidest thing I've done. 

[BassmanPaul]

On 30/04/2022 at 03:29, MacDaddy said:

 

Excessive use of class A/B amps can lead to tooth decay and diabetes? 😳

 

So THAT'S how I became a Diabetic!! 

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, BassmanPaul said:

 

So THAT'S how I became a Diabetic!! 

So that’s why it’s called class D. 

[acidbass]

On 29/04/2022 at 17:58, rhysyjob said:

Despite 8 years, five heads and every Eq patten under the sun. I simply cannot get on with the sound at volume.

 

I have to say that is exactly my experience of Class D heads too.  Just something missing.

[andy67]

1 hour ago, acidbass said:

 

I have to say that is exactly my experience of Class D heads too.  Just something missing.

I sometimes think we talk ourselves into that position. Granted and taken into account experience, I cannot see passed all valve heads - more specifically SVT Classic. However, I did go the hybrid route with the SVT-3pro, still cannot see past all valve heads, then moved onto the BV1001T hybrid, still cannot get past all valve heads but, this head and the 3pro are excellent in their own right and for me the BV1001T exceeds all expectation given the measly price attached to it. I've now rehearsed and gigged it (BV1001T) and very happy with the tone and performance plus, saves my back an injury. The essence of this is, I guess, is that we need to give it a chance. Still though, cannot see past an Ampeg SVT classic!!

Edited June 24, 2022 by andy67

[Quilly]

I picked up a Trace Elliott Elf a few weeks ago and while I still prefer the sound from my valve head and hybrid AB class amp, there's a huge amount to be said for the convenience of the amp and the sound is still pretty good from this amp. 

[Supernaut]

I guarantee nobody could tell in a blind test the difference between class A/B and class D. 
 

This ridiculous rumour has been doing the rounds forever on the Internet due to 'a company' being concerned that class D would take over and leave them in the dust. 

[Lozz196]

I agree, I’d know the difference between my own two amps (Ashdown ABM600 & RM500) if I were on a very large stage, but would I be able to tell if I walked into a venue if a bassist was using Class D or A/B without looking at the set up, well I very much doubt it.

 

If anything I think this thread is  a bit unfair on Class D amps, they’re not full valve, they’re not A/B, so maybe we should look at them for what they actually are, rather than what they aren’t. I know my gigging life has been made a lot easier thanks to Class D amps, although I do prefer to use my A/B amp if possible. 

[zbd1960]

This discussion seems very reminiscent of the debates you used to get in hi-fi magazines back in the 80s and 90s mostly about valve vs transistor amps... (and LP vs CD). There was valid justifiable criticism of early CD recordings, which were awful (I'm talking about classical recording here). That eventually got sorted out. Older technology tends to have a distinctive tone. More modern technology tends to be much more neutral and less 'coloured'. It's most obvious in the differences between LPs and CDs, but it applies to amps as well.  

[zranyard]

14 hours ago, Lozz196 said:

I agree, I’d know the difference between my own two amps (Ashdown ABM600 & RM500) if I were on a very large stage, but would I be able to tell if I walked into a venue if a bassist was using Class D or A/B without looking at the set up, well I very much doubt it.

 

If anything I think this thread is  a bit unfair on Class D amps, they’re not full valve, they’re not A/B, so maybe we should look at them for what they actually are, rather than what they aren’t. I know my gigging life has been made a lot easier thanks to Class D amps, although I do prefer to use my A/B amp if possible. 

Yeah I agree I do think Class d amps are pretty great when you factor in everything, cost, portability etc. I would absolutely love to own an ampeg v4b but I live in a 1 bedroom flat and already struggle with not having enough space, so having a tonehammer head which fits into my bass case is a huge plus for me.

[leroydiamond]

Micro heads and neodymium speakers kept me in the game for several years, as I was no longer able or interested to carry the heavy weight alternatives. Very grateful to companies that had the foresight to research and develop this technology. 

[JapanAxe]

My current bass heads include Class AB (both valve and solid state) and Class D. Each is a good example of its type and I enjoy playing them all.

 

I see no value in generalisations based on personal preference. If something works for you, that’s a win so go with it.

[molan]

I have to admit that I’m completely the opposite. I’m 100% class D all the way now. 
 

I’d never go back to lumping a valve head around. 
 

Took me a while to find a sound I liked but I’ve found I can dial anything I want into a decent Class D head with a bit of tone control tweaking. 
 

 

[Quilly]

On 25/06/2022 at 21:37, Supernaut said:

I guarantee nobody could tell in a blind test the difference between class A/B and class D. 
 

This ridiculous rumour has been doing the rounds forever on the Internet due to 'a company' being concerned that class D would take over and leave them in the dust. 

Probably not but if you take an A/B amp like an Ashdown or Trace and a similarly priced class D amp. If something goes wrong with the AB amp you're more likely to be able to get it repaired. I has a couple of class D amps go bad and they just weren't worth the hassle fixing.   

[Supernaut]

I've had plenty of valve heads go on me but never a class D so swings and roundabouts. 

[Lowend soldier]

2 minutes ago, Quilly said:

Probably not but if you take an A/B amp like an Ashdown or Trace and a similarly priced class D amp. If something goes wrong with the AB amp you're more likely to be able to get it repaired. I has a couple of class D amps go bad and they just weren't worth the hassle fixing.   

Absolutely right. Thats another tick for non class d.

But of course we can tell the differences. This is getting ridiculous. Virtually every maker or seller of both these types of amps clearly state in their own youtube sale vid,s for their non class d heads, That it has an oomph over their own class d heads even.

Thats ashdown, mesa, fender,aguilar ect. They all have a video where at some time they point out "this is not class d so has real old school oomph". For ease of reference, Just go and listen to the first and main selling point in every vid for the boss katana. Yep the 160 watts of a/b power is much more powerful than 160watts of class d. Every add 🤔😂

 these guys saying "Cant tell the difference lol".

Put the 6 or 7 heads i,ve owned through my cabs, blindfolded and i,d name each head by name, such the colouring of each of them too obtain their loud volumes. Why do so many people sell their class d stuff and go back to the older stuff, if its not different ??? 

 

This was accepted along time ago in the high end audio world and most guys upgrade their modern transformers with much beefier power supply,s. Many buy huge external blocks.  The difference in how the sounds delivered is very noticeable. 

Class d amps are very usable and are so,by millions of bass players. But i just cant understand why a faction of class d users refuse too aknowledge the reason why people hump around a huge rig and pay 2-3k for a real ampeg, mesa,aguilar ect. 

What do they think all the extra components do in these huge heads 😂😂😂. Its ridiculous.

 

[Quilly]

4 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

Absolutely right. Thats another tick for non class d.

But of course we can tell the differences. This is getting ridiculous. Virtually every maker or seller of both these types of amps clearly state in their own youtube sale vid,s for their non class d heads, That it has an oomph over their own class d heads even.

Thats ashdown, mesa, fender,aguilar ect. They all have a video where at some time they point out "this is not class d so has real old school oomph". For ease of reference, Just go and listen to the first and main selling point in every vid for the boss katana. Yep the 160 watts of a/b power is much more powerful than 160watts of class d. Every add 🤔😂

 these guys saying "Cant tell the difference lol".

Put the 6 or 7 heads i,ve owned through my cabs, blindfolded and i,d name each head by name, such the colouring of each of them too obtain their loud volumes. Why do so many people sell their class d stuff and go back to the older stuff, if its not different ??? 

 

This was accepted along time ago in the high end audio world and most guys upgrade their modern transformers with much beefier power supply,s. Many buy huge external blocks.  The difference in how the sounds delivered is very noticeable. 

Class d amps are very usable and are so,by millions of bass players. But i just cant understand why a faction of class d users refuse too aknowledge the reason why people hump around a huge rig and pay 2-3k for a real ampeg, mesa,aguilar ect. 

What do they think all the extra components do in these huge heads 😂😂😂. Its ridiculous.

 

In general I agree but the new Trace Elliott Elf 200W class D micro head really bucks that trend. It seems louder than 250-350W class D heads I've owned in the past and it has a real aggressive character also. Similar to those old Trace workhorses in days of yore (I've had a couple). I think they're definitely getting better at making good class D amps.     

[BigRedX]

9 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

Class d amps are very usable and are so,by millions of bass players. But i just cant understand why a faction of class d users refuse too aknowledge the reason why people hump around a huge rig and pay 2-3k for a real ampeg, mesa,aguilar ect. 

What do they think all the extra components do in these huge heads 😂😂😂. Its ridiculous.

 

The thing is that these big impressive looking rigs are doing pretty much nothing on stage other than looking big and impressive.

 

From personal experience with my own big impressive rig, is that the moment I stepped away from being directly in front of it I could hear more bass guitar from the PA foldback than I could from my own rig. The PA feed at best was taken from the line out/DI on the amp so it gets no benefit of the power amp valves or the "sound" of the cab(s) and that's where all the big heavy components are needed.

 

I sold mine, upgraded my effects to a Line6 Helix and bought an FRFR powered cab to use at rehearsals and the smaller gigs where the foldback might struggle to give a decent bass sound (although TBH so long as I can hear I'm in time and tune with the rest of the band I don't care what it sounds like on stage and I'll trust the FoH engineer to deliver an appropriate bass sound to the audience). The result is that my bands don't have a huge bass rig taking up valuable space on stage, in the van and in the rehearsal room.

 

By all means if your band image calls for it have a big impressive backline, although if I was going to be in a band like that I'd have a "prop rig" that was empty. lightweight and folded up for transit.

[Lowend soldier]

3 minutes ago, Quilly said:

In general I agree but the new Trace Elliott Elf 200W class D micro head really bucks that trend. It seems louder than 250-350W class D heads I've owned in the past and it has a real aggressive character also. Similar to those old Trace workhorses in days of yore (I've had a couple). I think they're definitely getting better at making good class D amps.     

Yh i agree buddy. Class d amps are fine and work well for many np. But the op of this thread started it by saying "after a certain volume level, he lost his favoured sound in his class d amps due too the way the class d amps compress certain frequencies too obtain the very loud volumes. 

Thats something many of us also find. And why we chose too steer clear of class d heads. 

People are saying you cant tell the difference. I find that mind boggling. 

 

[Lowend soldier]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

 

The thing is that these big impressive looking rigs are doing pretty much nothing on stage other than looking big and impressive.

 

From personal experience with my own big impressive rig, is that the moment I stepped away from being directly in front of it I could hear more bass guitar from the PA foldback than I could from my own rig. The PA feed at best was taken from the line out/DI on the amp so it gets no benefit of the power amp valves or the "sound" of the cab(s) and that's where all the big heavy components are needed.

 

I sold mine, upgraded my effects to a Line6 Helix and bought an FRFR powered cab to use at rehearsals and the smaller gigs where the foldback might struggle to give a decent bass sound (although TBH so long as I can hear I'm in time and tune with the rest of the band I don't care what it sounds like on stage and I'll trust the FoH engineer to deliver an appropriate bass sound to the audience). The result is that my bands don't have a huge bass rig taking up valuable space on stage, in the van and in the rehearsal room.

 

By all means if your band image calls for it have a big impressive backline, although if I was going to be in a band like that I'd have a "prop rig" that was empty. lightweight and folded up for transit.

All the power too you bro. But thats not how the thread started. There is a difference how a d class amp delivers the sound from an old school power supply at louder volumes. Maybe your answer exactly explains why class d heads work for many. As the actual head is ultimately not at the louder volumes the op is talking about or addressing. 

[BigRedX]

2 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

All the power too you bro. But thats not how the thread started. There is a difference how a d class amp delivers the sound from an old school power supply at louder volumes. Maybe your answer exactly explains why class d heads work for many. As the actual head is ultimately not at the louder volumes the op is talking about or addressing. 

 

But that only matters if you, your band and most importantly of all the audience can hear it.

 

What I'm saying is that most of the time only the bass player can, and only if they stand in front of the rig, never move away from that spot and aren't using IEMs. What everyone else will hear, at best, is the sound of the pre-amp valves being delivered by the Class D amps of the FoH and monitors.

[Lowend soldier]

1 minute ago, BigRedX said:

 

But that only matters if you, your band and most importantly of all the audience can hear it.

 

What I'm saying is that most of the time only the bass player can, and only if they stand in front of the rig, never move away from that spot and aren't using IEMs. What everyone else will hear, at best, is the sound of the pre-amp valves being delivered by the Class D amps of the FoH and monitors.

i totally get what your saying but its out of context. Forget the giggs. Guys (op) sat at home able too play at loud volumes. Hes talking about hes noticed as he gradually gets too loud volumes his sound starts loosing its shape in a different way too a/b ect and he cant dial it back in. Its a totally different scenario. At home its very noticeable. Also take into account a di,d rig is getting a boost from the powered desk or cabs and extra help with eq ect.   

[Downunderwonder]

And yet when Agedhorse and his team were challenged that their newfangled GenzBenz class D would never sell, because it couldn't possibly do what the old AB head did, the testing found them indistinguishable.

 

I made that process up from context but not the end result.

[MacDaddy]

56 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

***

 

By all means if your band image calls for it have a big impressive backline, although if I was going to be in a band like that I'd have a "prop rig" that was empty. lightweight and folded up for transit.

 

 

 

[andy67]

Y'know I guess there is an irony in all of this, all these PA array systems that are set up in venues and large events, are run by digital pre and power amps so, no matter if you have a digital or valve or hybrid or whatever, the hook up will end out being digital reproduction. I totally love the Ampeg SVT Classic although, I don't own one anymore, but I will one-day when I get my garage and sound proof it. Modify the garage to be a small pub with a stage and stuff and create thunder albeit before the Police arrive.  

 

My current bass amps:

 

Ampeg SVT-3pro

Ampeg PF-50T

Bugera BV1001T - £239 monster!

TCE BH250

TCE BAM

Hotone Thunder bass

Hotone Badass - I practice with this little beastie

 

Edited July 1, 2022 by andy67