Class D - diabolical

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, Bleat said:

My Marshall is class H. I won't pretend to know all the technical ins and outs but I understand  it utilizes a secondary power supply that kicks in to handle massive peaks. Either way it sounds awesome and definitely the best sounding amp I've owned by far.

Class H is basically Class A/B but has a complex power supply/power stage design that can almost instantly use more power when required. Most of the Ramsa Amps I have owned were Class H and sounded great. All bar one now sold as they are too heavy to move around at 70.

[rhysyjob]

2 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

I have the Bugera Veyron, which is probably the cheapest 'powerful' class D on the market. 

 

Press the low boost, and high boost buttons, dial in a little bit of the built in compressor, get the mids where you want them, leave everything else around 12 o'clock, and the thing sounds absolutely sublime! 

Dammit is this the BV1001T?  I may have to try one.

Edited April 30, 2022 by rhysyjob

[Linus27]

I think a lot would agree that an old school class A/B amp tend to give the best bass sound, we all loved the sound of our big old bass rigs. However, times have moved on and lugging these big old rigs around is not so enjoyable, especially the older we get. I do agree the Ashdown ABM is a great option and for me my personal favourite is the Hartke HA5500. 

 

I've owned a lot of Class D amps over the years and the two that I really like and have settled on are the Ampeg PF500/800 and the Ashdown MiBass550. I have both but tend to use the Ashdown purely as it's small. Other Class D amps have sounded thin, clinical or run out of puff but the Ampeg and Ashdown have both always sounded amazing and why I kept them.

[la bam]

As mentioned in other threads, I think part of the class d issue is that people also use them with often singular, small, lightweight cabs, and then people compare them to a big iron head with a large heavy multi speaker cab. 

Edited April 30, 2022 by la bam

[Lozz196]

I have a Class A/B Ashdown ABM600 and a Class D Ashdown RM500. In rehearsal rooms or on small stages I don’t really notice any difference, but once you get onto the much bigger stages there’s a greater depth to the sound of the ABM. 
 

So in reality I only actually need the RM, but as my cabs are the ABM Pro Neos it makes sense to my OCD to have a matching ABM amp.

[wateroftyne]

26 minutes ago, la bam said:

As mentioned in other threads, I think part of the class d issue is that people also use them with often singular, small, lightweight cabs, and then people compare them to a big iron head with a large heavy multi speaker cab. 

 

Not me. I've kept cabs pretty constant throughout.

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Class C is not used in audio, it is designed for radio transmitters.

 

yes, I don't know how that c got there when it was meant to be d

 

35 minutes ago, la bam said:

people also use them with often singular, small, lightweight cabs, and then people compare them to a big iron head with a large heavy multi speaker cab. 
 

 

I think most people when changing heads use the same cabs for comparisons. 

 

55 minutes ago, Linus27 said:

I've owned a lot of Class D amps over the years and the two that I really like and have settled on are the Ampeg PF500/800 and the Ashdown MiBass550. 

I am wondering if the 550 was better than the 220 - I had one of those and it was without doubt the worst amp I ever used, it was so lifeless.

I have a bam200 and that is so much better, although just for home, as I gig with an abm600

[grandad]

My choice after much buying & selling ended up as a TCE BH250 into 1 or 2 BFOne10s. I also have a BH250-208 as a practice amp. Power is enough for my needs. I've had this setup for about 2 years with no problem. 

 

For a light weight no fuss setup it fits the bill. With built in tuner & Spectracomp I get everything I need in a very lightweight package. 

[funkydoug]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

have a Class A/B Ashdown ABM600 and a Class D Ashdown RM500. In rehearsal rooms or on small stages I don’t really notice any difference, but once you get onto the much bigger stages there’s a greater depth to the sound of the ABM.

Both are great amps but the Eq on them is different. The RM  heads bass dial boosts lows at 100hz, ABM at about 50hz, so there’s an octave more depth there. That may be what you’re hearing.

[Ed_S]

I reckon it's the overall design of an amp that matters - if the designer has a vision for the end result, understands the components they're working with for all they are (and aren't) and knows how to use them intelligently and to best advantage, then the fact that one of those components happens to be a commodity class d power module is neither here nor there. I just wonder how many amps exist for no greater reason than to present something with the company logo on it for sale in a particular area of the market, and how much they might unfairly sway opinion on the underlying technology if they fail to inspire.

 

3 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

It’s Diet Coke vs Full Fat Coke.

 

At home I actively prefer Diet Coke, but down the pub I find all Coke tastes roughly the same. 🙂 

[ezbass]

3 minutes ago, Ed_S said:

 

 

 

At home I actively prefer Diet Coke, but down the pub I find all Coke tastes roughly the same. 🙂 

I see what you've done there - kudos.

[Newfoundfreedom]

2 hours ago, rhysyjob said:

Dammit is this the BV1001T?  I may have to try one.

 

No. I have the M (MOSFET version). Although they're so good, at some point when finances allow, I'm going to buy the tube version as well. 

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Welcome to my world. I realised this years ago that consumer power modules are lacking (IMO) and nothing has changed my mind yet. It’s Diet Coke vs Full Fat Coke.

There was a common misconception that the ICE in ICEPower meant "In Car Entertainment" when in fact it meant cool as ICE.

[Mudpup]

I've given up on class D as well. Tried a load of them (GenzBenz, Mesa, Genzler, GK, MarkBass, Darkglass) and they never quite give the booty when you get loud. You can get the initial volume but they flatten the sound out quicker as you get louder and just get shouty. The newer ones are very good but still don't quite do it for me. And I've had the same cabs for all of them so I have a decent point of reference.

 

A while ago I read somewhere that it's the faster decay of the note that's different - the initial power delivery can be equivalent but a class D can't sustain the hit as well as a class A/B. The power delivery peak drops off quicker and thats the bit that gives you the heft thing - it gives you that bottomless power sensation. I don't know whether the science backs that up but it sort of makes sense to me and mirrors my experience. If you're playing loud live rock gigs that rely on backline volume you'll notice the difference but if you just use the amp as a stage monitor or play in quieter venues you may not.

 

The only class D i've found that gets close to it is a Quilter and I believe that uses a bespoke power module rather then the generic ones that others use. I actually kept mine and can happily gig it but have moved on all the other class D's in favour of a couple of old Mesa's. They weigh a ton but the sound offsets the inconvenience for me. And if I didn't have the Mesa's plan b would be an Ashdown ABM600 as per the other guys above. It's not very heavy and definitely has the booty.

Edited April 30, 2022 by Mudpup

[wateroftyne]

I’ve been saying this for years and years, and I’m used to being roundly mocked for it it.

 

I feel vindicated now 🙂

[Lozz196]

42 minutes ago, funkydoug said:

Both are great amps but the Eq on them is different. The RM  heads bass dial boosts lows at 100hz, ABM at about 50hz, so there’s an octave more depth there. That may be what you’re hearing.

When I was using them in the live world I used to bypass the eq on the amps and use my Sansamp Para Driver for the eq, and I always kept the same settings so FOH got what I wanted. I noticed it a few times, the volume was fine but the RM just didn’t sound as big.  But it was still more than up to the job, 100% happy stage sound for me is a nice to have, whether or not I can hear myself is a definite (not keen on bass in monitors) and the RM never failed on that point.

[grandad]

35 minutes ago, Mudpup said:

I've given up on class D as well. Tried a load of them (GenzBenz, Mesa, Genzler, GK, MarkBass, Darkglass) and they never quite give the booty when you get loud. You can get the initial volume but they flatten the sound out quicker as you get louder and just get shouty. The newer ones are very good but still don't quite do it for me. And I've had the same cabs for all of them so I have a decent point of reference.

 

A while ago I read somewhere that it's the faster decay of the note that's different - the initial power delivery can be equivalent but a class D can't sustain the hit as well as a class A/B. The power delivery peak drops off quicker and thats the bit that gives you the heft thing - it gives you that bottomless power sensation. I don't know whether the science backs that up but it sort of makes sense to me and mirrors my experience. If you're playing loud live rock gigs that rely on backline volume you'll notice the difference but if you just use the amp as a stage monitor or play in quieter venues you may not.

 

The only class D i've found that gets close to it is a Quilter and I believe that uses a bespoke power module rather then the generic ones that others use. I actually kept mine and can happily gig it but have moved on all the other class D's in favour of a couple of old Mesa's. They weigh a ton but the sound offsets the inconvenience for me. And if I didn't have the Mesa's plan b would be an Ashdown ABM600 as per the other guys above. It's not very heavy and definitely has the booty.

If you're right then I think maybe that touch of compression might make up for that. 

[leroydiamond]

I have been through several class d amps and the cheap and cheerfull Kustom KXB500 knocked them all out of the park

[Sparky Mark]

1 hour ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

 

No. I have the M (MOSFET version). Although they're so good, at some point when finances allow, I'm going to buy the tube version as well. 

I believe the M version is based on the Ampeg PF series and the T on the GB Streamliner. Very different pre amps.

[Osiris]

I'm more than happy with class D amps and their light weight form factor. Yes, there are some that aren't so great but there are some that are. For the past 5 years or so I've been using a Genzler Magellan and it has all the heft - I might as well be the first to say it - that I need and then some. Very much a deep, clear and weighty sound. I also have the 350 as a backup amp and have gigged and rehearsed with it many times too and have never come close to running out of power or struggling to make the bass be heard, that's playing in a moderately loud pub/function band. Certainly no depth or projection issues at volume. 

 

I think I've posted this before but the most gutless amp that I've had the misfortune to own was a Trace Elliot SMX head through a pair of 15" Trace cabs, back in the early 90's. These amps seem to be regarded as something magical these days but I have no idea why, it was at best a 1 trick pony, virtually no grunt or projection in the low end or the low mids and a seemingly constant spike in the 2-4Khz region that got fatiguing on the ears really quickly. A million tone shaping options on the pre-amp but nothing that really translated through the speakers into anything other than trying to make you sound like a clanky Mark King wannabe, albeit without any noticeable low end in your sound. A truly awful amp, IMO and IME.

 

And a couple of years ago I bought an Ashdown Little Stubby because we all 'know' valves are the best and that I must surely be missing out with my meager class D amps 😀. It was alright but nothing spectacular. It certainly didn't blow me away in the way that the internet had told me it would 😱🤷‍♂️😀. Trouble is that to get it sounding anywhere near what I wanted (classic 70's on the edge of breakup type rock tones) at home, the reason I bought it, you had to push it too hard and loud at to be unusable without annoying the family and the neighbours. But it wasn't loud enough to realistically use in a band context either. I'm sure it's a great amp if you're able to push it without annoying a lot of people around you but I wouldn't describe it as any sort of life changing mystical experience. Certainly nothing to sway me away from my Magellans. 

 

After returning the Little Stubby for a refund I picked up an Ashdown Touring 220 combo for a steal from eBay. It's an all valve pre-amp into (I think) a 220 watt class A/B power section - but I'm happy to be corrected on the technical details if that's not right. It's a much more pleasing amp to my ears than the Little Stubby was and the passive EQ stack is great once you get used to it. And as much as I highly rate the Touring 220 combo, it doesn't do anything, or have more heft or whatever, than my Magellans. 

 

We're all different, YMMV, horses for courses, each to their own, etc. 

Just thought I'd better get that in before the ratting of pitchforks starts 😁

[la bam]

Weirdly I've just returned to markbass with a sansamp, after using a trace v6, ashdown ctm300, ashdown abm600, GK 550 fusion and I prefer it to them all.

[Woodinblack]

I think one thing we can see by these descriptions is that there is an amp for everyone.

 

In the modern age (ie, since the carlsboros etc), I have had a TC BH250 1x12 combo for 2 years of one group. I was quite happy with that but wanted more flexibility (and maybe joined here), so I got a TC RH450 and a GK410. That sounded great, but the 410 was too big as my knee was collapsing and I got 2 x TC112 speakers which were easier to carry. Probably spurred on by hearing how evil class Ds were here I got a Ashdown 300 and a MiBass 220 for next to nothing. The mibass, as mentioned, was a piece of junk, the 300 was ok, but was still using the 450. Then I got an CTM100 - that was probably the best of all and if you want to do old rock and blues, couldn't be beat, but I don't, and it weighed a lot and was a pain to carry, so I got the ABM600 on a deal on lockdown. (and the bam200 for £85 refurb)

I like the ABM600, I find it a pain it doesn;'t have a tuner, like the TC450 but it is a nice size to sit on the speakers sideways, and good to put the mixer on, so that is my standard rig now.

TBH, apart from the mibass, I would still be happy to gig with any one of them.

[ern500evo]

42 minutes ago, la bam said:

Weirdly I've just returned to markbass with a sansamp, after using a trace v6, ashdown ctm300, ashdown abm600, GK 550 fusion and I prefer it to them all.

I love the GK Fusion 550, I played through one once and was desperately trying to get the guy to sell it to me. 

[la bam]

6 minutes ago, ern500evo said:

I love the GK Fusion 550, I played through one once and was desperately trying to get the guy to sell it to me. 

 

Superb amp. Really great. One I regret selling, but needed the cash (thanks covid). Big, but not too heavy, but a glorious sound.

[ern500evo]

I’ve had TC RH450 & 750, GB Shuttle 9.2, Aguilar TH500, Darkglass M900,GK MB Fusion, and used a RM800 in a rehearsal room a few times. My two faves were the MB Fusion ,I kept it far longer than I kept any of the others, and the RM800. I would happily gig any of the others again if I had to, I didn’t really dislike any of them. The RH450 was probably my least favourite. To my (cloth) ears, the 750 sounds so much better. Used them all with the same Barefaced Big Twin 2 cab. I’m back with heavyweight heads now, been using a EBS TD650 for a while and it’s fabulous. If I want something a bit lighter, I think I’d go for a ABM600.