Class D - diabolical

[orangepeelneil]

My Mark Bass LM3 failed a few weeks ago, terminally = most likely a PSU PCB fault/failure.

The cost to fix it wasn’t worth it (was quoted £200) so I sold it to nice guy on FB Marketplace for £150, he was hoping to fix it, I hope he does.

For me this is the worst thing  about Class D amps.....😞

 

I’d had it new since 2011 and paid £500, so I’d had a decent run with it and no servicing and plenty of regular use from 2011- 2018 …but not in anger for used for gigs since 2018.  

My thinking was if it was a car, I’d be happy with that return on investment/depreciation/usage …However I’m going back to having to a 500W Mosfet output based amp (probably Ashdown ABM) as a backup, these seem to around £200 used, which is attractive.

 

I do like the convenience and overall sound/ output of class D amps such as MB , Genz Benz, Orange  etc in a band / gig context  with an efficient cab and will most likely buy again another 500+W class D amp when I have the spare cash, however like all other consumer electronics, it soon becomes beyond economic sense to repair these and many manufacturers are not building in serviceability (just module swaps) into most consumer electronics, there are some exceptions.

For MB I literally couldn’t find any service literature, schematics, layouts etc only guidance and personal experiences in the forums such as BC.

[ezbass]

28 minutes ago, orangepeelneil said:

My Mark Bass LM3 failed a few weeks ago, terminally = most likely a PSU PCB fault/failure.

 

I had the PSU fall over on my LM2 when I had one and it seemed to be a thing with all LMs at the time.

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, orangepeelneil said:

My Mark Bass LM3 failed a few weeks ago, terminally = most likely a PSU PCB fault/failure.

The cost to fix it wasn’t worth it (was quoted £200) so I sold it to nice guy on FB Marketplace for £150, he was hoping to fix it, I hope he does.

For me this is the worst thing  about Class D amps.....😞

 

I’d had it new since 2011 and paid £500, so I’d had a decent run with it and no servicing and plenty of regular use from 2011- 2018 …but not in anger for used for gigs since 2018.  

My thinking was if it was a car, I’d be happy with that return on investment/depreciation/usage …However I’m going back to having to a 500W Mosfet output based amp (probably Ashdown ABM) as a backup, these seem to around £200 used, which is attractive.

 

I do like the convenience and overall sound/ output of class D amps such as MB , Genz Benz, Orange  etc in a band / gig context  with an efficient cab and will most likely buy again another 500+W class D amp when I have the spare cash, however like all other consumer electronics, it soon becomes beyond economic sense to repair these and many manufacturers are not building in serviceability (just module swaps) into most consumer electronics, there are some exceptions.

For MB I literally couldn’t find any service literature, schematics, layouts etc only guidance and personal experiences in the forums such as BC.

Ashdown can fix their Class D RM amps, which as well as that they’re great sounding amps (and probably the heftiest Class D amps I’ve used) is another good reason for using them. 

[BassmanPaul]

1 hour ago, orangepeelneil said:

…However I’m going back to having to a 500W Mosfet output based amp

 

Just as a point Class D amps use MOSFETs too.

[rhysyjob]

6 minutes ago, BassmanPaul said:

 

Just as a point Class D amps use MOSFETs too.

Yes but in a different way! 😉

[Sparky Mark]

2 hours ago, orangepeelneil said:

My Mark Bass LM3 failed a few weeks ago, terminally = most likely a PSU PCB fault/failure.

The cost to fix it wasn’t worth it (was quoted £200) so I sold it to nice guy on FB Marketplace for £150, he was hoping to fix it, I hope he does.

For me this is the worst thing  about Class D amps.....😞

 

I’d had it new since 2011 and paid £500, so I’d had a decent run with it and no servicing and plenty of regular use from 2011- 2018 …but not in anger for used for gigs since 2018.  

My thinking was if it was a car, I’d be happy with that return on investment/depreciation/usage …However I’m going back to having to a 500W Mosfet output based amp (probably Ashdown ABM) as a backup, these seem to around £200 used, which is attractive.

 

I do like the convenience and overall sound/ output of class D amps such as MB , Genz Benz, Orange  etc in a band / gig context  with an efficient cab and will most likely buy again another 500+W class D amp when I have the spare cash, however like all other consumer electronics, it soon becomes beyond economic sense to repair these and many manufacturers are not building in serviceability (just module swaps) into most consumer electronics, there are some exceptions.

For MB I literally couldn’t find any service literature, schematics, layouts etc only guidance and personal experiences in the forums such as BC.

Chances are that your 2011 LM3 had a class AB power amp. Markbass introduced class D in LM3 in 2012 but yours could've been a really early example. If you could see two heatsinks through the side vents it was a class AB. 

[lemmywinks]

Although I don't use amps live any more I do still use them at rehearsals. I usually take a TC BH250 with me but also have the option of playing through numerous Ashdowns as that's what our main rehearsal space spec their rooms with. Got to say I use the TC over the Ashdown heads (through either one or two Ashdown 4x10 cabs) however I will use the old Hartke HA2500 they have knocking around in one of the rooms as that is still an amp I like the core sound of.

 

Never felt I was missing out on anything by using small amps and I get the opportunity to use old school heads/cabs all the time without the burden of having to lug them around. I'd sooner have my old LMII and 2 x Club 121 stack over every rehearsal rig permeation I have access to now, that includes ABM and MAG heads and 4x10 cabs.

[alexa3020]

6 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Although I don't use amps live any more I do still use them at rehearsals. I usually take a TC BH250 with me but also have the option of playing through numerous Ashdowns as that's what our main rehearsal space spec their rooms with. Got to say I use the TC over the Ashdown heads (through either one or two Ashdown 4x10 cabs) however I will use the old Hartke HA2500 they have knocking around in one of the rooms as that is still an amp I like the core sound of.

 

Never felt I was missing out on anything by using small amps and I get the opportunity to use old school heads/cabs all the time without the burden of having to lug them around. I'd sooner have my old LMII and 2 x Club 121 stack over every rehearsal rig permeation I have access to now, that includes ABM and MAG heads and 4x10 cabs.

I had the tc bq500 which I assumed was the same as the bh range without the tone print. Although the tone of the amp was ok (although I did end up with a pre amp pedal in front of it), I just couldn’t get on with it at volume and especially in the mix of the band. It just felt wrong. It didn’t sound squashed, but it was like the signal was compressed and the notes didn’t have the same attack & they sustained for way too long.

perhaps I was out of headroom - although I’d rarely be past half way on the input and output volume.

I’d take an ABM over it any day. 
I am beginning to think perhaps it was just the tc amp I didn’t like, rather than it was because it was class D though

[grandad]

Just the opposite with me. Many here extol Ashdown amps but I never got on with the models I tried. The BH250 has been my amp of choice for a couple of years now. I used to gig with a Peavey head into an Ampeg 115 so I suppose 'old school' would describe my preferred tone. BF One10s are my cabs now. 

9 o'clock to 3 o'clock on the volume control is my preferred range with the Spectracomp between 9 & 11.   

[alexa3020]

1 minute ago, grandad said:

Just the opposite with me. Many here extol Ashdown amps but I never got on with the models I tried. The BH250 has been my amp of choice for a couple of years now. I used to gig with a Peavey head into an Ampeg 115 so I suppose 'old school' would describe my preferred tone. BF One10s are my cabs now. 

9 o'clock to 3 o'clock on the volume control is my preferred range with the Spectracomp between 9 & 11.   

Funnily enough, I didn’t get on with Barefaced 10’s either.

 

[grandad]

20 minutes ago, alexa3020 said:

Funnily enough, I didn’t get on with Barefaced 10’s either.

 

Well there you go, it's great to have so much choice nowadays. Eventually we should all be able to find a rig to please us, although it takes a lot of buying & selling to get there. 

 

There's a lot of good kit out there & I've enjoyed trying out a lot of it. I'm content now, (he said)!

[lemmywinks]

3 hours ago, alexa3020 said:

I had the tc bq500 which I assumed was the same as the bh range without the tone print. Although the tone of the amp was ok (although I did end up with a pre amp pedal in front of it), I just couldn’t get on with it at volume and especially in the mix of the band. It just felt wrong. It didn’t sound squashed, but it was like the signal was compressed and the notes didn’t have the same attack & they sustained for way too long.

perhaps I was out of headroom - although I’d rarely be past half way on the input and output volume.

I’d take an ABM over it any day. 
I am beginning to think perhaps it was just the tc amp I didn’t like, rather than it was because it was class D though

 

The BH250 isn't something I'd pick if I was gigging with amps, I bought it because it was cheap (ended up at £90 used after I sold the accompanying pedal), tiny and feature packed! However one thing it does offer is the ability to get rid of things I don't like due to the smart eq which I don't think the BQ range has. Never been a fan of Ashdown stuff so when using their 4x10 cabs this is very handy for cleaning up the mud, a little bit of Spectracomp via the Toneprint goes a long way as well.

 

I would probably want something with a bit more headroom if I was gigging with it but amps on stage is a thing of the past for me, I still eye up new heads from time to time even though I have no use for them!

[Sparky Mark]

I remember a bit of controversy around the TC RH series when a lab test indicated their advertised RMS outputs appeared to be overstated. Apparently this was down to TC using clever limiting/compression type magic to make the numbers.

[rhysyjob]

44 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

I remember a bit of controversy around the TC RH series when a lab test indicated their advertised RMS outputs appeared to be overstated. Apparently this was down to TC using clever limiting/compression type magic to make the numbers.

Apparently TC Electronics test department has been bought by VAG Group…… 😁

[Woodinblack]

52 minutes ago, Sparky Mark said:

I remember a bit of controversy around the TC RH series when a lab test indicated their advertised RMS outputs appeared to be overstated. Apparently this was down to TC using clever limiting/compression type magic to make the numbers.

 

By a bit of a controversy you mean many tens of pages of people saying how dishonest TC were and how they would never buy anything from them again? Yes, there was that.

 

[BigRedX]

On 30/04/2022 at 16:25, ern500evo said:

Even when their gear was getting a slating, people calling it ‘crash down’ etc, their customer service always got rave reviews. They do seem to have an impeccable customer focus 

 

Except when they don't. Myself and a couple of other people on here have been treated pretty badly by Ashdown's customer support. I'll never buy anything from them ever again.

[Sparky Mark]

4 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

By a bit of a controversy you mean many tens of pages of people saying how dishonest TC were and how they would never buy anything from them again? Yes, there was that.

 

[BigRedX]

10 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

Apparently TC Electronics test department has been bought by VAG Group…… 😁

 

It's worse than that. They've been bought by Music Tribe (Behringer).

[rhysyjob]

4 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

It's worse than that. They've been bought by Music Tribe (Behringer).

🤦‍♂️

[BigRedX]

Everyone wants different things from their bass amp. For me the amp is simply a way of getting from instrument or line level to speaker level, and the less it affects the sound the better. I've gone the modeller/FRFR (class D) route, and for all but the smallest venues I don't even bother with the FRFR cab as I know the foldback will be more than up to the job.

 

To the OP. I assume that you rig is 100% responsible for what the audience hears.

[Chienmortbb]

On 30/04/2022 at 17:55, Mudpup said:

That would have exactly the opposite effect and compound the issue for me - it would squash the dynamics even more. The big old heavy amps keep the dynamics as you wind them up but the class D ones seem to flatten them out

I have to disagree, the main benefit is a valve amp is its inherent compression. 

[Chienmortbb]

12 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Except when they don't. Myself and a couple of other people on here have been treated pretty badly by Ashdown's customer support. I'll never buy anything from them ever again.

There are always exceptions to every rule. 

[rhysyjob]

6 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Everyone wants different things from their bass amp. For me the amp is simply a way of getting from instrument or line level to speaker level, and the less it affects the sound the better. I've gone the modeller/FRFR (class D) route, and for all but the smallest venues I don't even bother with the FRFR cab as I know the foldback will be more than up to the job.

 

To the OP. I assume that you rig is 100% responsible for what the audience hears.

Absolutely the case 95% of the time.

I’m not opposed to letting the PA do the heavy lifting but I prefer mic/di. Agree that in that instance the FRFR class D argument is a bit redundant. 

[wateroftyne]

24 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

By a bit of a controversy you mean many tens of pages of people saying how dishonest TC were and how they would never buy anything from them again? Yes, there was that.

 

Absolute marketing con, that. I hated that amp with a firey passion.

 

I was in two minds whether to sell it on, or ceremonially smash it to bits to get some sort of closure.

[rhysyjob]

4 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

There are always exceptions to every rule. 

Personally, I’ve found Ashdown very helpful.
TC Electronic, Line 6 we’re appealing (went in the bin) and Eden (about 9years ago) cost me a fair bit in petrol, phone calls and parts.