Class D - diabolical

[rhysyjob]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Meh. Be done with it.

 

IEM and go through the PA. You'll be able to hear everything super clearly, not rag your ears... and your band will sound better for it too.

I have considered it, but by the time you add vibrating boards, good headphones, transmitters etc, id rather just go DI rig, monitor and -15db plugs to cut out the cymbals.

  

[EBS_freak]

Just now, Lowend soldier said:

Thank you sir i will have a look into this witchcraft.....

Linked to the section in the IEM bible thread. Although if you want to go down the IEM route, I would recommend you read the whole lot!

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, rhysyjob said:

I have considered it, but by the time you add vibrating boards, good headphones, transmitters etc, id rather just go DI rig, monitor and -15db plugs to cut out the cymbals.

  

 That makes no sense. IEM is not a considerable overhead at all.

 

Wired IEM setup

DI box into PA (or modeller)

XLR from PA into a P2.

Pair of IEMs

Optional Backbeat (that lives on your strap)

 

IEM wireless setup

DI box into PA (or modeller)

Wireless transmitter with pair of XLRs (stereo) from PA

Pair of IEMs

Optional Backbeat (that lives on your strap)

 

VS... lugging around a bass cab and ear plugs that despite what the manufacturers claim, mess with the sound.

 

The biggest change would be miking up all the gear, or switching to modelling preamps if you don't do so already. Recorderman technique for drums (over shoulder condenser and kickdrum mic will be good enough for most... but of course, if you are micing up the drums for FoH, you can piggy back off those mics).

 

I just wanted to squish the myth that IEMs are a big overhead. They aren't - and they save your ears, enable you to hear everything... and stop arguments about people turning up to hear themselves.

[thodrik]

I don't own any class D amps, however my nephew has a TC Electronic BQ500 which is about as budget as a budget class D head gets. I think it sounds pretty impressive for the price and practicality standpoint. If you are using a pre EQ DI or using an additional preamp for your core tone, then it is a perfectly useable gigging amplifier given that nobody is going to hear the amp anyway. Would I trade my bigger amps for it? No way, but I would be totally happy if I was given one as supplied backline.

Though I love amps as a point of personal interest (design choices, features, how they are put together etc), however I am not picky when it comes to a gig. If a gig required me to go the IEM route I would do that without hesitation.

However my main interest has always been heavy rock, particularly in the blues, stoner and doom sub-genres in which amps (particularly vintage amps) are generally part of the culture and 'fun' of being in a band and doing live shows, so going IEM in that route is unlikely for me, even if it makes complete logical sense. 






 

[Chienmortbb]

38 minutes ago, Lowend soldier said:

i couldnt ever be without the physicality and presence of the bass on the stage. I have too feel the colour of each note from its vibration. I cant hear with just my ears although my hearing is excellent. Caused much banging of heads over 20 years to be honest in night clubs, bigger venues with sound men, but we were always re booked. Recently been diagnosed with autism in my late 40,s which might explain that.

Thats exactly my gripe with all the class d amps i,ve had. You lose the outline of the bass note, it just goes boomy and the tone kicks in and over powers the low signal when volume is applied.

Fair too also add to this topic that apart from the gk mb800, all the other class d amps i have owned, had a coloured tone you cant dial out. Non more so than the tone hammer and rh750 i,ve sold over the week end. 

No doubt they work for many, out every week, but i think its a combination of reasons people opt for these. Not many have sighted sound alone above tbf 🤔.

None of these heads imo would stand up to a blind sound test comparison ie: a mesa subway against big block ect 

I have measured the frequency response of two Class D amps. One the Bugera BV1001M the other was an Ashdown MiBass 2. Both were well withing =/- 1dB  from about 70 Hz to well over 10KHz when the EQ/Tone controls were set at 12 o'clock. The MiBass 2 has a more aggressive High Pass Filter and although lower powered was prbably more suited to my needs, of course I sold it.

 

As for blind tests, I agree they are worthwhile but suspect you would be surprised at the results. We all hear as much with our eyes as with our ears and taking the visual clues out mean that the visual  heft of bigger amps is negated.

[lemmywinks]

Probably the worst thing about a conventional amp setup to what I use now is that on bass amps there's no volume control for the snare or keyboards. Manufacturers should think about adding this feature in.

[Lozz196]

7 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

Probably the worst thing about a conventional amp setup to what I use now is that on bass amps there's no volume control for the snare or keyboards. Manufacturers should think about adding this feature in.

A pan-tilt control for the guitarists speaker cab would be nice too.

[Chienmortbb]

2 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Probably the worst thing about a conventional amp setup to what I use now is that on bass amps there's no volume control for the snare or keyboards. Manufacturers should think about adding this feature in.

Ah keyboard players. So often they wonder why the rest of us are needed as they can do it all.

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

 That makes no sense. IEM is not a considerable overhead at all.

 

Wired IEM setup

DI box into PA (or modeller)

XLR from PA into a P2.

Pair of IEMs

Optional Backbeat (that lives on your strap)

 

IEM wireless setup

DI box into PA (or modeller)

Wireless transmitter with pair of XLRs (stereo) from PA

Pair of IEMs

Optional Backbeat (that lives on your strap)

 

VS... lugging around a bass cab and ear plugs that despite what the manufacturers claim, mess with the sound.

 

The biggest change would be miking up all the gear, or switching to modelling preamps if you don't do so already. Recorderman technique for drums (over shoulder condenser and kickdrum mic will be good enough for most... but of course, if you are micing up the drums for FoH, you can piggy back off those mics).

 

I just wanted to squish the myth that IEMs are a big overhead. They aren't - and they save your ears, enable you to hear everything... and stop arguments about people turning up to hear themselves.

Those backbeats look great but they are not cheap at $399US excluding everything. That probably equates to close to £500 including shipping, handling duties and VAT. In saying that, for me the need for the instant feedback as Billy Sheehan describes in the promo, probably makes  them a necessity. 

[Woodinblack]

8 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Those backbeats look great but they are not cheap at $399US excluding everything. That probably equates to close to £500 including shipping, handling duties and VAT. In saying that, for me the need for the instant feedback as Billy Sheehan describes in the promo, probably makes  them a necessity. 

 

The old ones were in bassdirect for just over £300 - I am sure the new ones will be too when they are updated

[Chienmortbb]

1 minute ago, Woodinblack said:

 

The old ones were in bassdirect for just over £300 - I am sure the new ones will be too when they are updated

Oh Dear. I don't buy from BD so that's a problem.

[Woodinblack]

Just now, Chienmortbb said:

Oh Dear. I don't buy from BD so that's a problem.

 

Well, it isn't, you can still buy them direct, just was showing it as an option.

[Chienmortbb]

Just now, Woodinblack said:

 

Well, it isn't, you can still buy them direct, just was showing it as an option.

Yes  I sort of realised that just after I hit enter. So my savings pot has been started.

[crazycloud]

On 30/04/2022 at 02:58, rhysyjob said:

I tried, but I’m going back to my Class A/B happy place!

No confirmation bias here at all.

[BigRedX]

IME a requirement for volume or being able to "feel" the music generally means that either the songwriting or the arrangements aren't good enough...

[fretmeister]

3 hours ago, lemmywinks said:

Probably the worst thing about a conventional amp setup to what I use now is that on bass amps there's no volume control for the snare or keyboards. Manufacturers should think about adding this feature in.

 

For me it's the trombones.

 

Noisy barstewards, the lot of them!

[rhysyjob]

1 hour ago, crazycloud said:

No confirmation bias here at all.

Who better to assess what

makes me happy? 

[agedhorse]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

 

No problem. Use ambient mics for monitoring (to keep volume down in your ears) and a PA speaker as your rig.

 

I set somebody up with an XR18, a RCF 735, a mic stand with a stereo condenser on. IEM feed from XR18. Job done.

Alternatively, IEMs an a Zoom field recorder work nice for monitoring.

Of course the powered speaker is class D with a SMPS

[agedhorse]

10 hours ago, Stofferson said:

I whole heartily agree.

I went through several class D amps and all failed in some way, either over heating, poor volume or just plain rubbish.

ABM 600 now for the past 3/4 years doesn't weigh a ton and tone and power for days.

Horses for courses I know, and everyone of us has a different idea of what they need, but I need loud and reliable and that's what my amp gives me

Failure and overheating is not a class D issue, it's a "poor design" issue.

 

I haven't had any of these issues with any of the class D amps I have designed, going back over 15 years.

[Lozz196]

The only Class D amp I had a problem with was my 2nd Ampeg PF500, other than that no reliability issues at all and I’ve had a good many of them. 

[crazycloud]

2 hours ago, rhysyjob said:

Who better to assess what

makes me happy? 

I would put very good money on the fact that you cannot tell the difference between a flat, unprocessed AB or D amp without knowing what you're listening through.

 

I'm not commenting on what makes you happy, or even on what you might think makes you happy, but blanket statements like you've made here are far more likely to be about your predetermined ideas than reality in my experience, hence the confirmation bias comment.

Edited May 3, 2022 by crazycloud

[rhysyjob]

34 minutes ago, crazycloud said:

I would put very good money on the fact that you cannot tell the difference between a flat, unprocessed AB or D amp without knowing what you're listening through.

 

I'm not commenting on what makes you happy, or even on what you might think makes you happy, but blanket statements like you've made here are far more likely to be about your predetermined ideas than reality in my experience, hence the confirmation bias comment.

I have been at pains to comment a number of times that it is my opinion and that everyone has different tastes and requirements. 
 

However, you have no factual foundation to base your observation that my comments on Class D are “based upon your predetermined ideas than reality in my experience”.

 

So your comments are based upon your predetermined bias of what you think I’m hearing… and that in the best light is presumptuous. 

[crazycloud]

No, I have considerable experience with blind A/B and A/B/X testing as well as amplifier design, and I'm basing my comments on that.

[wateroftyne]

6 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

I have been at pains to comment a number of times that it is my opinion and that everyone has different tastes and requirements. 
 

However, you have no factual foundation to base your observation that my comments on Class D are “based upon your predetermined ideas than reality in my experience”.

 

So your comments are based upon your predetermined bias of what you think I’m hearing… and that in the best light is presumptuous. 

 

By extension, your comments above apply to everyone in this thread who has said they find class-D lacking.

 

I trust my own experience, and I'm sure the other posters have a bit of faith in theirs.

[CJPJ]

For me this is about an open fire vs. central heating. Both can get you warm but in different ways and with difference amounts of practicality. Day to day, central heating is super-practical but I do miss the crackle of an open fire. My ideal house would have both I suppose.