Class D - diabolical

[Downunderwonder]

3 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

I have been at pains to comment a number of times that it is my opinion and that everyone has different tastes and requirements. 
 

However, you have no factual foundation to base your observation that my comments on Class D are “based upon your predetermined ideas than reality in my experience”.

 

So your comments are based upon your predetermined bias of what you think I’m hearing… and that in the best light is presumptuous. 

GenzBenz went to a great deal of trouble to placate the people in who swore up and down the new D amp was a poor imitation the ''real thing''. At the end of the day they couldn't tell any difference.

 

Their opinions cost a lot of effort to show they didn't hold water.

 

The engineers knew the new one had the goods and they could show the naysayers all the graphs of power output v frequency. That wasn't enough. They had to do a full on double blind trial to show there was no audible difference.

 

Statements of opinions thrown out as facts tend to get pushback.

[rhysyjob]

11 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

GenzBenz went to a great deal of trouble to placate the people in who swore up and down the new D amp was a poor imitation the ''real thing''. At the end of the day they couldn't tell any difference.

 

Their opinions cost a lot of effort to show they didn't hold water.

 

The engineers knew the new one had the goods and they could show the naysayers all the graphs of power output v frequency. That wasn't enough. They had to do a full on double blind trial to show there was no audible difference.

 

Statements of opinions thrown out as facts tend to get pushback.

And that may be true for Genz Benz.

However like everyone else on this forum (I suspect,  but don’t know because I am not them) I trust my ears. 
 

It’s not always the signal at fault, it’s the way it gets delivered. 😊✌️

[Jack]

10 hours ago, Lowend soldier said:

 Not many have sighted sound alone above tbf 🤔.

None of these heads imo would stand up to a blind sound test comparison ie: a mesa subway against big block ect 

For the record I'd say my GK MB500 and Fusion sounded just as good as my 1001ii.

 

I find it odd that people complain that class D has no ... heft ... (not me) and plenty of people complained that the GB Streamliner was too dark, too thick and too hefty. It's almost like you can voice an amp however you want using the preamp. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Jack

[Downunderwonder]

44 minutes ago, rhysyjob said:

I trust my ears. 

That's the problem right there. Ears get (mis)informed by eyes.

 

If there's something missing when you have a true 800w amp at your disposal, it's not the amp. Agedhorse once explained it far better than I can. Basically with all that power it will quickly expose any limitations of the cab.

 

The OP should read 'Nobody makes a preamp I like on any micro amp I tried'.

[Chienmortbb]

4 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Of course the powered speaker is class D with a SMPS

 

4 hours ago, agedhorse said:

Of course the powered speaker is class D with a SMPS

Don’t let the truth spoil a good story.🤪

[wateroftyne]

41 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

The OP should read 'Nobody makes a preamp I like on any micro amp I tried'.

or maybe … Class D power amps don’t behave in a way people who prefer A/B find pleasing.’

 

I used a Demeter for a few gigs once. Liked the simple preamp, but at volume the sound was the usual blah that I’d experienced many times before with a micro.

 

Tried the Handbox, which has a very similar pre bolted to an A/B power stage. Bingo. Never looked back.

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, wateroftyne said:

or maybe … Class D power amps don’t behave in a way people who prefer A/B find pleasing.’

Except that afaik nobody has found anyone who can tell the difference when blindfolded and given the same preamp on the same rated output amps running clean. Both A/B and D sound like bottom when pushed past clean. Quid pro quo, it's all in the preamp.

[wateroftyne]

5 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Except that afaik nobody has found anyone who can tell the difference when blindfolded and given the same preamp on the same rated output amps running clean. Both A/B and D sound like bottom when pushed past clean. Quid pro quo, it's all in the preamp.

Why would you want to do that? Who uses an amp in that environment?

 

I prefer my own real-world experience gleaned from proper gigs.

 

Bear in mind I have no axe to grind. Who wouldn’t want a tiny amp that does the job just just as well as a slightly bigger one?

 

Wxperience tells me they’re not the same, and I’m afraid until I try one that ticks the boxes after I’ve gigged it in a number of scenarios (not once in a church hall with a blindfold on), you’re not going to be able to convince me otherwise.

 

Same goes for a new bass. A blindfold test against the old one in a church hall will tell me nowt.

Edited May 4, 2022 by wateroftyne

[Downunderwonder]

53 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Why would you want to do that? Who uses an amp in that environment?

 

I prefer my own real-world experience gleaned from proper gigs.

 

Bear in mind I have no axe to grind. Who wouldn’t want a tiny amp that does the job just just as well as a slightly bigger one?

 

Wxperience tells me they’re not the same, and I’m afraid until I try one that ticks the boxes after I’ve gigged it in a number of scenarios (not once in a church hall with a blindfold on), you’re not going to be able to convince me otherwise.

 

Same goes for a new bass. A blindfold test against the old one in a church hall will tell me nowt.

You're talking around the issue. All blind testing afaik has yielded the same results as Agedhorse's GenzBenz team. There is no audible difference between clean running Class D and Class A/B.

 

Btw, blind/blindfold refers to the lack of knowledge of what the subject is playing through, not literal blindfolds.

 

Whatever you are hearing can't be the difference between classes of power stage when there isn't any that can be demonstrated.

[wateroftyne]

12 minutes ago, Downunderwonder said:

You're talking around the issue. All blind testing afaik has yielded the same results as Agedhorse's GenzBenz team. There is no audible difference between clean running Class D and Class A/B.

 

Btw, blind/blindfold refers to the lack of knowledge of what the subject is playing through, not literal blindfolds.

 

Whatever you are hearing can't be the difference between classes of power stage when there isn't any that can be demonstrated.

My own real-world experience is not ‘talking around the issue’. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by wateroftyne

[Downunderwonder]

Just now, wateroftyne said:

My own real-world experience is not ‘talking around the issue’. 

You can't A/B anything in a gig. Very hard to do in a rehearsal without determination and help.

 

Real world trial bears naught on the actual issue which is people putting differences down to the class of power amp.

[wateroftyne]

Just now, Downunderwonder said:

You can't A/B anything in a gig. Very hard to do in a rehearsal without determination and help.

 

Real world trial bears naught on the actual issue which is people putting differences down to the class of power amp.

 

Of course you can't - hence my conclusions drawn from real-world experience and evaluation over many gigs.

 

It's worth mentioning that I was an early adopter - my journey with Class D began about 20 years ago. At that time, there was no hype for me to get swept up in.

 

Maybe there's a head with a different power module from the last few years that does the job? I dunno. I'm still seeing more and more people coming out to say class D isn't for them.

 

It's a moot point for me anyway, I've found the perfect head for me, and it's not exactly big or heavy.

 

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

I have done double-blind tests regarding which preamp players prefer (not just my designs) and it’s ironic that what many players are convinced they like ends up not being what they chose when they couldn’t see it. 
 

This is why double-blind testing is come, to remove the effects of confirmation bias.

 

I have designed some very high powered class AB amps back in the day, well received in the pro touring world, but today’s better class D designs are every bit as good when mated to the identical preamp. 

[wateroftyne]

When I was on the amp merry-go-round years ago, trying to work out what was missing from my sound, people weren't saying 'Oh, it's a Class D thing'. I had to work it out for myself - I wasn't listening with my eyes.

 

 

 

[agedhorse]

7 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

or maybe … Class D power amps don’t behave in a way people who prefer A/B find pleasing.’

 

I used a Demeter for a few gigs once. Liked the simple preamp, but at volume the sound was the usual blah that I’d experienced many times before with a micro.

 

Tried the Handbox, which has a very similar pre bolted to an A/B power stage. Bingo. Never looked back.

How are the pre’s “very similar”? 
 

Change one or two component and the voicing can change wildly. Unless the preamps are IDENTICAL, you aren’t comparing power amps, you just think you are (which is where confirmation bias comes into play)

 

Now if you were to say that you preferred one amp over another without insisting that it’s due to the class of power amp, I can totally appreciate that.

[agedhorse]

7 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

[deleted duplicate post]

Edited May 4, 2022 by agedhorse

[wateroftyne]

Just now, agedhorse said:

How are the pre’s “very similar”? 
 

Change one or two component and the voicing can change wildly. Unless the preamps are IDENTICAL, you aren’t comparing power amps, you just think you are (which is where confirmation bias comes into play)

 

Now if you were to say that you preferred one amp over another without insisting that it’s due to the class of power amp, I can totally appreciate that.

 

Fair enough. I'd say my issues in general are more due to response than voicing, though.

[Downunderwonder]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

conclusions

You have concluded without due consideration of all the variables. Removing variables results in a different conclusion!

[wateroftyne]

Just now, Downunderwonder said:

You have concluded without due consideration of all the variables. Removing variables results in a different conclusion!

OK, but I’m a musician, not a scientist. Don’t have time for that.

[Downunderwonder]

Agedhorse might have some 500w frequency  response curves to change some minds?

[agedhorse]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

 

Fair enough. I'd say my issues in general are more due to response than voicing, though.

There are all kinds of dynamics and voicing modifiers that go into a preamp design. The Streamliner that was mentioned earlier was very much about voicing and dynamics and sounded/felt totally different from the Shuttles even though they both used the same power modules. 
 

There’s a lot more to how an amp sounds/feels than just the power amp design (which can also be designed in ways to exploit or reject a particular aspect of tonality and feel. 

[agedhorse]

1 minute ago, Downunderwonder said:

Agedhorse might have some 500w frequency  response curves to change some minds?

I’m not going to get into those specifics here. 

[wateroftyne]

3 minutes ago, agedhorse said:

There are all kinds of dynamics and voicing modifiers that go into a preamp design. The Streamliner that was mentioned earlier was very much about voicing and dynamics and sounded/felt totally different from the Shuttles even though they both used the same power modules. 
 

There’s a lot more to how an amp sounds/feels than just the power amp design (which can also be designed in ways to exploit or reject a particular aspect of tonality and feel. 

 

So in that case I would say I never found a preamp I clicked with on the Cass D's owned, but had a very good hit rate on the A/B's.

Quite a coincidence!

[Lowend soldier]

Theres some pissy pants here....... One things for sure too say people cant tell the differences between an a/b and a class d amp is just plain stupid. Why would so many people not get on with them if thats the case ? You ,d have to be deaf not too be able to actually name a tone hammer or rh750 ect outright in any test😂😂😂😂😂😂

[rhysyjob]

As originator of the post I have to say it is quite presumptuous to label that all are listening with their eyes.

 

Sure there maybe AB tests that are non conclusive for specific applications. 
 

There are also people for and against on the forum. I would guess that most of these opinions are based upon personal experience, listening and specific applications.
 

They are also free of political agenda.