Multi-scale basses

[visog]

So Anderton's latest bass vid got me thinking - are multi-scales set to become the norm or will 'uni-scale' basses remain the default? I suspect the latter but this trio still look, and sound, very intriguing.

 

Which did you think sounded the best? They all had their moments but the Dingwall maybe?

 

 

[fretmeister]

I owned 2 and still have one, I like it very much and I’m convinced it is completely unnecessary.

 

Unlike a piano the differences in string length isn’t enough and it solves nothing that can’t be solved by getting the construction right in the first place and picking the right strings.

 

I think they’ll stay around but I can’t see them replacing parallel fret instruments or becoming the more popular option.

[Machines]

I've had 2 Dingwalls and 2 RedSub Coliseums (cheapest proper sized multiscale going). I think the benefits it gives are really only obvious if you play in the low register a lot. When I go back to the 34" basses they feel tiny (like going from a bass to a guitar), but it passes quickly.

 

I currently have a Dingwall D-Roc and a Spector Euro 5LX as main instruments. The D-Roc sounds as above but is warmer and has less top end (as is passive). The Spector sounds similar to mine, i'm not sure the Andertons video really capitalised on the extended scale and did a lot of high end widdling.

 

As they are more expensive to produce than parallel fret instruments and are generally associated with metal, I think they will become more popular, but in no way will they replace anything. 

[Guest]

I've not had a better, clearer, more even and consistent tone out of a bass than a Canadian Dingwall. The NG and Combustion basses are good but the Canadian models are a significant step up. I've got 3 and had more, and over the last 30 years or so I've played lots and lots of top end 5 and 6 string basses and nothing else comes close. Material, construction, strings etc. all make a difference but you cannot get away from simple physics. I owned an Overwater Progress 6 once - 36" scale with parallel frets. The low B was great but the high G and C sounded terrible (thin and twangy with no warmth - and this was obviously being caused by the scale length), ditto with a Fodera Anthony Jackson Presentation.

I guess in a band context many players don't notice or care so much. I've seen many 5 and 6 string players never venture above the 5th fret on the low B, where many basses sound OK (but still not tight or defined enough to my ears!)

As to whether they will replace a standard parallel fret bass? Well not on a 4-string as it's managed OK for the last 50 years! For basses with lower strings, unlikely given the wide range of choice, but the fact that other manufacturers are doing them (Warwick, Ibanez and now Spector to name 3) suggests the concept works. I still have a Stingray Special and a Sadowsky and tolerate them as they have a perfectly functional B string, mainly for a variety in tone (Dingwall have preset pickup combinations which are nice, but you cannot get a Stingray or a convincing Jazz bass tone).

 

[visog]

Ish guys review similar models:

 

[Mastodon2]

They certainly won't ever replace traditional traditional single-scale instruments, bass players as a community are generally deeply rooted in nostalgia and conservatism. Guitarists are the same, to be fair.

 

You can show them something with only positives and no negatives from an engineering perspective and they still won't adopt the idea if it strays too far from their accepted ideas or what they feel comfortable with. This is why things like headless instruments never really caught on in a big way.

 

Bass guitar design is still based extremely heavily around Leo Fender's designs from more than half a century ago. Guitar is the same, though Gibson's designs have a bigger bearing there than they do in the bass guitar sphere. These iconic brands have become so intrinsically linked to the music scenes where they are popular, it's very difficult to see how any radical new idea could ever become accepted in the mainstream.

 

 

[Vin Venal]

The most progressive bass I've ever owned was one of these fan fretted headless ibanez jobs.

 

It was definitely the most comfortable, practical instrument I've played.

 

But I still sold it and bought a Precision, cuz at the end of the day, most of us want our guitars to look like they're from the middle of the 20th century, and this aesthetic concern overrides most practical ones.

 

Maybe in 50 years or so, when people are nostalgic about the good old days of early 21st century prog djent tech metal, these will finally replace conventionally fretted instruments, but by that time, more progressively minded bassists will be playing instruments made of dark matter, and listening to inter-dimensional gothic dubstep or whatever.

[Lfalex v1.1]

I seem to recall having played a fan- fretted bass at some point.  

 

There doesn't seem to be a very consistent approach in terms of scale length;

For example a 5 string Dingwall is 34-37",

whereas their Super P4 is 32-34.5".

 

Surely there's an approximately optimal length for any given string/pitch as determined by maths/ player consensus. 

The latter seems to favour about 32" for a G string and around 35" for a B string. 

 

I don't think I've seen a (5 string) design that seems to embrace a short scale approach for the higher pitched strings and a slightly longer than long scale (34") for the lower pitches.

 

[visog]

Interesting point Lfalex (whatever your latest version is). Ibanez in particular have experimented with different fanned fret loci as you can choose where to to align the multi-scales against each other, as well as how severe you make the fan, i.e. 35, 36 or 37" on the 'B' and 34, 33 or 32" on the 'G'. Not seen a reverse 'long-low, short-high' design but I'm sure someone's done it.

[Woodinblack]

I would suspect that straight frets will always be standard. Most people haven't got away from the 1950s P bass, its 70 years to the fan frets!

 

 

[TheLowDown]

I've got a multiscale to see what they have to offer and if they will eventually grow on me, but I regret buying it other than to know for definite that they're not for me. So at least it's served some purpose. I think the numerous disadvantages hugely outweigh any advantages, at least for me, and that they will remain niche that serve a purpose for some but not most.

Edited May 3, 2022 by TheLowDown

[krispn]

16 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

I seem to recall having played a fan- fretted bass at some point.  

 

There doesn't seem to be a very consistent approach in terms of scale length;

For example a 5 string Dingwall is 34-37",

whereas their Super P4 is 32-34.5".

 

If I may... you're comparing their 4 string scale to their 5 string for overall scale length so that's maybe contributing to the "inconsistency" My understanding is that the Super P4 scale length was to retain a slightly more tradition feel but still using the fanned fret system for the benefits it imparts. The scale length on my old SP5 was a 35" on the low B string and a 34.25" on the E -  a 35" B string is quite the norm on anon-fanned basses.

 

The D-Roc which has a 36.25 scale length on the E but 37" on the string B so a similar ratio to other DIngwall 5'ers and mathematically in line with the overall fanned fret ratio Dingwall uses?

 

I owned and gigged a Super P for 5 years and it is a bass I would own again in a heartbeat (and a lottery win). I think of the Super P as if a P bass had done a 6 month boot camp - it is a bit tighter, a bit more muscular , the pick up was neodymium and naturally a less vintage sounding unit etc. but it was still a P bass and a great example of what a modern design can do to inject a new lease of life into a classic.

 

I have recently taken ownership of a DBird and it has a slightly longer scale than the Super P did but it's still eminently playable and comfortable to wear/gig. It has that low end clarity, a tightness to the overall sound and is a well engineered and well made bass. Switching back to my No.1 - a P bass of course - they don't feel the same and they play differently but I wouldn't expect them to or want them too. The scale length and neck profile make the P a littler 'easier', spongier in feel and of course more traditional in its sound but I really enjoy playing both. I have been using the DBird on all home playing and gigs/rehearsals and it definitely has a bit more clarity and cut live, maybe it stands out a bit more rather than 'dissolving' into the mix the was a good P bass does (I often think of my P bass like a low/low-mid 'musical stock cube'). The DBird is a passive bass and like with my P bass I can make it sound more old school quite easily with a twist of the tone knob and it's 'middle position' sound is as workable a P tone as any other P bass out there

 

I've gone on a tangent but fanned fret basses don't have to compete with regular fretted bass. They offer some advantage to some players the same way a MM bass isn't for everyone or when a hollow body, short scale is the only tool for the job!

 

 

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Lfalex v1.1 said:

I seem to recall having played a fan- fretted bass at some point.  

 

There doesn't seem to be a very consistent approach in terms of scale length;

For example a 5 string Dingwall is 34-37",

whereas their Super P4 is 32-34.5".

 

Surely there's an approximately optimal length for any given string/pitch as determined by maths/ player consensus. 

The latter seems to favour about 32" for a G string and around 35" for a B string. 

 

I don't think I've seen a (5 string) design that seems to embrace a short scale approach for the higher pitched strings and a slightly longer than long scale (34") for the lower pitches.

 

Dingwall has 2 scale lengths on 5 strings:

DRoc/Afterburner/Z/Lee Sklar/Prima - 34”-37”

Super P/J - 32”-35”

 

Basically each lower string is 0.75” longer, regardless of model or scale. I presume there’s been some kind of physics/design testing around this (possibly originally by Gary Novak).

 

Proportionally they’re the same - 3” - but they explain the super series as having a shorter overall scale length for a more “traditional” tone (and I suspect look as the 37” B makes for a loooong neck). Having owner a super series before they’re a little softer in tone - the longer scale basses tend to have a “bigger” sound that to me is a little at odds with something like a P bass.

 

I don’t see these basses ever replacing a Fender or a Stingray because they don’t exactly replicate those sounds and on looks alone they’ll put off many bass players. It’s a shame that they seem to be labelled metal basses as they’re popular with players into downtuning. They’re a lot more versatile. 

 

 

 

[SumOne]

I like multiscale's, I've owned three.

 

One issue I have that I rarely see mentioned is if you pluck just in front of the pickup on the B and then pluck vertically down all the strings you'd be plucking the G relatively closer to the bridge. So you need to adjust plucking position to compensate and have even tone -  I don't find that ergonomic or intuitive. 

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

I don’t see these basses ever replacing a Fender or a Stingray because they don’t exactly replicate those sounds and on looks alone they’ll put off many bass players. It’s a shame that they seem to be labelled metal basses as they’re popular with players into downtuning. They’re a lot more versatile.

 

Fender players are fender players, if its not got fender on the label they won't change, which is fine, but it isn't a market anyone is going for.

 

I have never labeled the Dingwals as metal basses, apart from maybe the NG2, as I tend to associate them with artists like Lee Sklar / Tony Levin (along with stingrays and sticks) / John Taylor (along with Arias!)

[krispn]

I wonder if Fender ever produced a fan fret if that perception would change…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

of course it wouldn’t. Fender would be berated for doing something new, discontinuing the actually new product while simultaneously producing a new line of all the same basses for even more money than the previous iteration of the range. 
* I love my fender but just saying 

Edited May 3, 2022 by krispn

[Rikki1984]

On 03/05/2022 at 14:12, SumOne said:

I like multiscale's, I've owned three.

 

One issue I have that I rarely see mentioned is if you pluck just in front of the pickup on the B and then pluck vertically down all the strings you'd be plucking the G relatively closer to the bridge. So you need to adjust plucking position to compensate and have even tone -  I don't find that ergonomic or intuitive. 

 

I own a Dingwall ABHS and this is the only negative I have about it.

 

 

[d-basser]

On 03/05/2022 at 14:12, SumOne said:

I like multiscale's, I've owned three.

 

One issue I have that I rarely see mentioned is if you pluck just in front of the pickup on the B and then pluck vertically down all the strings you'd be plucking the G relatively closer to the bridge. So you need to adjust plucking position to compensate and have even tone -  I don't find that ergonomic or intuitive. 

 

See, this doesn't bother me. I generally like the rounder neckwards tone on the low strings and the slightly brighter bridgeward tone on the higher strings any way.

 

For reference, I've had an AB1 six string for about 15 years and just got a 5 string D-Roc but I also have a stable of Fender-esque bits basses

[SumOne]

14 hours ago, d-basser said:

 

See, this doesn't bother me. I generally like the rounder neckwards tone on the low strings and the slightly brighter bridgeward tone on the higher strings any way.

 

 

 

I'm the opposite, even on a normal scale Bass I prefer to pluck the higher strings slightly closer to the neck than the lower strings to make the tone as even sounding as possible. So on multi-scale that becomes more of an issue needing to conciously move my plucking hand a fair bit up the neck for the higher strings (it's not a deal breaker though, I currently own an Ibanez EHB MS and also owned a Dingwall Combustion and an Ibanez SRMS 8005). I mostly play Dub/Reggae type stuff though so always want an consistent fat low-end tone, probably if I played different genres or used more effects and drive then it wouldn't necessarily be an issue at all.  

[crazycloud]

I understand the physics and the reasoning behind FF, but have never heard a really good (sound) example that's going to convince me to shell out for one. The only ones I can find locally are the Ibanezes. I live away from the major cities but in my next trek to the big smoke I'm going to try a couple and maybe a Dingwall if I can. I'm not a traditionalist, so aesthetically I think most of the FFs look great.

[Storky]

I have the Ibanez 1505MS. The advantages for me are:

1. Light weight

2. ergonomic 

3. good, tight B string (35”)

4. Rounded, full G string (33”)

5. Compact size, despite long scale

6. less stretching to fret the notes

 

The disadvantages are:

1. Doesn’t fit with band image (unless you play in a metal band etc)

2. It’s stereotyped as a “metal bass”

[Guest]

On 03/05/2022 at 14:12, SumOne said:

I like multiscale's, I've owned three.

 

One issue I have that I rarely see mentioned is if you pluck just in front of the pickup on the B and then pluck vertically down all the strings you'd be plucking the G relatively closer to the bridge. So you need to adjust plucking position to compensate and have even tone -  I don't find that ergonomic or intuitive. 

Er… no.

The strings get progressively shorter, so even though you’re plucking closer to a fixed point (the bridge) as you go up the strings, proportionally it’s pretty much the same distance along each string. 
I’ve made no adjustments to playing a fanned fret bass and it sounds perfectly even.

[SumOne]

2 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

Er… no.

The strings get progressively shorter, so even though you’re plucking closer to a fixed point (the bridge) as you go up the strings, proportionally it’s pretty much the same distance along each string. 

 

Er.... yes!

 

If you pluck vertically down (red line) then the G is being plucked relatively closer to it's bridge than the B. You'd need to pluck on the blue line to be plucking the same relative distances along each string (The fret fanning and pickup angles show the relative distance for each string e.g. Bridge to 24th fret being a quarter of the length along each string). 

Edited May 5, 2022 by SumOne

[visog]

Nice explanation... loving your bass. What scale is that one?

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, visog said:

Nice explanation... loving your bass. What scale is that one?

Cheers, it's an Ibanez EHB 1005 MS which ist 35" - 33". It works well, I'd definitely recommend it. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by SumOne