Monitoring - if tha wants owt done proper...

[lozkerr]

...tha does it thissen, as they say in Yorkshire. My ears are still ringing from our last gig six days ago.

 

The gig was on a college campus and we had a keen student stage crew, who were happy to provide me with an IEM feed. All seemed well at soundcheck, but as the gig progressed the monitor mix got increasingly louder and it sounded like my mic was being turned up and down, possibly due to bleed-through from my backline. On top of that, our drummer, who is a human metronome - no, he really is good - started hammering away at his kit like a boilermaker on piece work. On a fully mic'd up drumkit, which I was standing right beside. I could hardly hear my bass and ended up digging in hard, which inevitably resulted in a lot of string clatter, and also found myself singing BVs far too loud and I've strained my voice as a result.

 

I am not happy about this - in fact I'm severely p'd off.

 

I've been wondering what to do about it, as I'm feeling apprehensive about putting my hearing in the hands of sound engineers whose experience might not be that extensive. Something similar happened on our previous two gigs and I'm concerned that tinnitus might be just around the corner if I carry on like this.

 

Custom moulded IEM earplugs will deffo be an improvement, but I'm wondering whether it would be safer to set up my own monitoring system that won't put me at risk of being deafened. I was thinking of something like a Behringer MX882 splitter mixer, with bass and vocal mic outputs going through that and out to the main desk, and a couple of ambient mics to pick up the stage sound. Mix those to taste with the bass and vocal mic and put the combined output through my IEMs.

 

What are people's thoughts? Am I overthinking this?

 

Many thanks,

Laura

[Dad3353]

They're your ears, and you won't get another set. Do whatever you can to keep 'em in good nick for as long as possible, I'd say. Having control of the overall volume is a good start; having mixing possibility is even better. If you're free of tinnitus for the moment, that's the time to take your hearing under your own control if you can. Just my tuppence-worth. 

[Downunderwonder]

Wow. Do what you have to do. I'd have stopped the show and read the riot act on that.

[Lozz196]

A few years back on a line check the sound man said he had the monitors on a “festival setting”. When we started playing it the volume through the monitors was so loud it was unbelievable, so we instantly stopped and asked for everything apart from vocals to be taken out. The volume imo would have caused some hearing damage. Luckily he kept to our needs and didn’t bump anything. 
 

I think with your case @lozkerrit’s a case of asking over the mic for everything to be lowered, and if it isn’t stop playing. You’re not overthinking it at all, once your hearing is damaged it stays that way. 

[lozkerr]

Thanks, folks. My ears are still ringing from a week ago, so I've decided to give the personal system a try. The IEM feed from the main desk can go into the splitter mixer so I can turn it down / off if need be.

 

Hopefully the gear will be here before next Thursday's rehearsal, so I can try it out then.

[MacDaddy]

4 minutes ago, lozkerr said:

Thanks, folks. My ears are still ringing from a week ago, so I've decided to give the personal system a try. The IEM feed from the main desk can go into the splitter mixer so I can turn it down / off if need be.

 

Hopefully the gear will be here before next Thursday's rehearsal, so I can try it out then.

 

Could you post pics of the gear/signal path? Ta!

[lozkerr]

49 minutes ago, MacDaddy said:

Could you post pics of the gear/signal path? Ta!

Yes, of course. If Gear4Music are to be believed, the gear should be here on Monday. Stay tuned 😊

[paul_c2]

The only real way is to control what's within your power to control.

 

If this means having a sound engineer of your own, so you CAN control the mix (and overall volume) during the gig, and who understands the needs of your band and yourselves more accurately than "random student wannabe sound engineer" (I'm sure some of them will go on to make good sound engineers) then that's what to do. 

 

If this isn't possible - I appreciate it may be a step up too far - then stopping briefly to solve the technical issues, WITHOUT annoying the audience, is the way to go. Certainly I'd try a brief pause and chat with the relevant, without asking/moaning on-mic, before anything else.

 

I wouldn't go buying more and more kit, if the issue is the way the existing kit you use (albeit the venue's) is being controlled.

[mcnach]

On 05/05/2022 at 19:15, lozkerr said:

...tha does it thissen, as they say in Yorkshire. My ears are still ringing from our last gig six days ago.

 

The gig was on a college campus and we had a keen student stage crew, who were happy to provide me with an IEM feed. All seemed well at soundcheck, but as the gig progressed the monitor mix got increasingly louder and it sounded like my mic was being turned up and down, possibly due to bleed-through from my backline. On top of that, our drummer, who is a human metronome - no, he really is good - started hammering away at his kit like a boilermaker on piece work. On a fully mic'd up drumkit, which I was standing right beside. I could hardly hear my bass and ended up digging in hard, which inevitably resulted in a lot of string clatter, and also found myself singing BVs far too loud and I've strained my voice as a result.

 

I am not happy about this - in fact I'm severely p'd off.

 

I've been wondering what to do about it, as I'm feeling apprehensive about putting my hearing in the hands of sound engineers whose experience might not be that extensive. Something similar happened on our previous two gigs and I'm concerned that tinnitus might be just around the corner if I carry on like this.

 

Custom moulded IEM earplugs will deffo be an improvement, but I'm wondering whether it would be safer to set up my own monitoring system that won't put me at risk of being deafened. I was thinking of something like a Behringer MX882 splitter mixer, with bass and vocal mic outputs going through that and out to the main desk, and a couple of ambient mics to pick up the stage sound. Mix those to taste with the bass and vocal mic and put the combined output through my IEMs.

 

What are people's thoughts? Am I overthinking this?

 

Many thanks,

Laura

 

 

No, I don't think you're overthinking it, your ears (your health) is far more important than any gig.

 

I would need to be able to control at least the overall volume going into my ears. Getting your own mix would be ideal, but at the very least I'd want control over the volume in my in-ears. And make sure the buds you use seal properly and isolate you as much as possible. Customs are a good way to achieve that, but until you get those I'd try a range of tips to identify a set that works for you. The 'comply' memory foam ones tend to be pretty decent, just get the correct size for your ear canal.

 

I've got one of these Behringer P1 units, they're pretty cheap. You can put whatever mix you get given through it and control the volume yourself. At the very least use something like that.

 

https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0AZM

 

Edited May 7, 2022 by mcnach

[mcnach]

On 05/05/2022 at 21:19, Downunderwonder said:

Wow. Do what you have to do. I'd have stopped the show and read the riot act on that.

 

Yup.

 

It will not look cool, but I frankly would not give a flying flip if they're blasting my ears.

[mcnach]

22 hours ago, lozkerr said:

Thanks, folks. My ears are still ringing from a week ago, so I've decided to give the personal system a try. The IEM feed from the main desk can go into the splitter mixer so I can turn it down / off if need be.

 

Hopefully the gear will be here before next Thursday's rehearsal, so I can try it out then.

 

One thing that I used sometimes and worked surprisingly well (although obviously it won't compete in sound quality with a proper system) was a Zoom H2 recorder onstage plus a minimixer and the Behringer P1 above. I used the H2 in record mode without pressing record: that allowed me to use the H2 as a microphone (and it sounds quite good!) to get the 'stage sound' through it into the mini mixer set on my amp. Then I had a feed from my bass (pedalboard) into the mixer as well, and the output of the mixer into my P1. With a pair of good fitting earbuds that provided sufficient isolation, I get to control the overall volume and balance the stage sound with my bass from teh pedalboard. It's not very sophisticated but it sounded quite decent and while not very loud in my ears I still got the 'thump' from the drums and my amp onstage, so it was quite fun.

 

It's a relatively cheap option independent of anybody else or any additional equipment, so you can use it anywhere.

 

I believe @Dood used a similar approach in the past, maybe he has additional comments on this as I think he used it more than I have.

[uncle psychosis]

I have zero experience with in-ears or setting up monitoring but there's no way I'd ever use earplugs on any system where I wasn't in personal control of the final volume. Someone else can craddock around with the mix as much as they want but the volume control would need to be at my fingertips. 

 

Presumably there are multiple ways of achieving that. 

[Buddster]

From what OP has said it seems like the monitor mix was being messed around with. Possibly a digital desk and they didn't realise they had the monitor mix live on the faders rather than FOH? 🤷 Easily done if you're not experienced. 

Anyway, not being a user of IEM, if you're the units mentioned above are taking a feed from the desk, are you not going to have the same issue ie the feed into the unit gets turned up and in turn raises the level into your ears? I guess you do have the option then of turning it down (so I think I just answered my own question! 🤡) 

 

[lozkerr]

5 hours ago, mcnach said:

Zoom H2 recorder onstage plus a minimixer and the Behringer P1 above. I used the H2 in record mode without pressing record: that allowed me to use the H2 as a microphone

Damn, I should have thought of that. I have a Zoom H2 that I use for recording our rehearsals and the sound quality's really good. I've ordered a pair of el-cheapo condenser microphones to give me the option of pointing one at the singists and the other at a wedge monitor. I'll have to do some experimenting to see what works best. At least I don't have to worry about hearing our boilermaker drummer! He can wake the dead when he gets carried away. 

 

I have a Behringer P2 belt pack that doesn't look to have as many features as your P1 and I did think of turning the whole thing down when the volume got unbearable but I'd have had to stop playing to do a reach-around under my jacket (stop sniggering in the cheap seats) to get to the volume control. Worse, I'd have lost everything else, so I soldiered on, but I'm paying the price for that now.

 

The solution I'm planning sounds very similar to yours - personal mixer taking inputs from bass, vocal mic, an on-stage sound source or two plus a feed from the main desk. Bass and vocal mic up on the splitter mixer so I can hear myself properly, sound stage down a tad and the ability to instantly kill the feed from the main desk without losing anything else if things go tits-up. With the splitter mixer on top of my amp, I can hit the mute button in an instant.

 

Hopefully the gear will arrive on Monday. I'll report back on how well it works.

 

On a different note, your location says you're now in Edinburgh. Is this a permanent thing?

[mcnach]

16 hours ago, lozkerr said:

Damn, I should have thought of that. I have a Zoom H2 that I use for recording our rehearsals and the sound quality's really good. I've ordered a pair of el-cheapo condenser microphones to give me the option of pointing one at the singists and the other at a wedge monitor. I'll have to do some experimenting to see what works best. At least I don't have to worry about hearing our boilermaker drummer! He can wake the dead when he gets carried away. 

 

I have a Behringer P2 belt pack that doesn't look to have as many features as your P1 and I did think of turning the whole thing down when the volume got unbearable but I'd have had to stop playing to do a reach-around under my jacket (stop sniggering in the cheap seats) to get to the volume control. Worse, I'd have lost everything else, so I soldiered on, but I'm paying the price for that now.

 

The solution I'm planning sounds very similar to yours - personal mixer taking inputs from bass, vocal mic, an on-stage sound source or two plus a feed from the main desk. Bass and vocal mic up on the splitter mixer so I can hear myself properly, sound stage down a tad and the ability to instantly kill the feed from the main desk without losing anything else if things go tits-up. With the splitter mixer on top of my amp, I can hit the mute button in an instant.

 

Hopefully the gear will arrive on Monday. I'll report back on how well it works.

 

On a different note, your location says you're now in Edinburgh. Is this a permanent thing?

 

 

It occurred to me looooooong after I had needed a solution like that. It seems obvious once you think of it, but it took a while for it to be obvious to me  

I had my H2 at work as a colleague was thinking of getting a small recorder, and I had my headphones plugged in, set it to record mode... and I could hear people talking down the corridor very clearly (it can be a nice spying device 😛 ) and a few weeks later I finally made the connection to using it onstage. First I took it to practice and the clarity was better than using my usual ACS earplugs even if my buds were not great at isolating. I bought a bunch of tips on eBay, different materials and sizes, and found a comply tip that felt comfortable and provided very good isolation. I think this is very important: unless you have a good seal you will not get very good results. In fact, you might be tempted to turn up the volume so that you can hear better... which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place!

 

Your solution sounds good, you can keep adding small levels of sophistication  The 2 mic idea is cool. I bought a pair of Behringer C2 (little condenser mics, they can be a bit noisy compared to proper good quality studio mics, but for this purpose they'd work well... I must try that, thank you for the tip!)

 

Yes, I am in Edinburgh (Little France way), been here since November 1999. It was supposed to be only 3 years... but this city grabs you and doesn't let you go. The weather reeks but the people are too nice and it's too much fun here   

 

edit: I have also considered using a compressor/limiter to give me a little extra peace of mind, but I didn't research this part well. Just another thing to consider.

Edited May 8, 2022 by mcnach

[EBS_freak]

Having been through this route with somebody else, I'd totally recommend the Zoom H8 - https://www.studiospares.com/zoom-h8-handy-recorder-378770.htm

 

Gives you the option for am ambient sound where you are standing (through it's own mics). And you can also take a feed from any desk that may be available... but also allow you to put your own mics out on key instruments, or take splits from mics already in place and control the levels all through the mixing facility on the zoom. When you price up a mixer (that can take 8 XLRs) and an pair of ambient mics, you're already quids in on the Zoom... and thats before you add in the recording option.

[Owen]

 

[lozkerr]

Aaarrgh! The gear I ordered arrived this afternoon, too. The Zoom R8 looks the biz all right, provided I could instantly kill the feed from the main desk and have enough inputs left over to hear what's going on on stage. Not a huge bit of gear, either.

 

<thinks, thinks, thinks>

 

Now that I've got the gear, I'll see how well it works in practice as a first step. I bought a 4U Gator rack case as well, so that my Eden WTP600 can fit in alongside the splitter mixer. That's a good incentive for my wee brain - I'll have to bring a spare amp by default if I want any monitoring!

 

I'll try it out at rehearsal on Thursday and report back. We're getting too loud in the rehearsal studio as well - in our run-through before our last gig, one of our guitarists used a phone app to measure noise levels and we apparently hit 125 dB at one point 😱 If we can't dial it back, I think I might suggest that everyone stands on the opposite side of the room to their amps so they can clearly hear the racket they're making - and I'm as guilty as anyone in that respect.

 

[telbomber]

Thanks for the link @Owen

@lozkerr the R8 is the real deal,  and at £125 posted with flight case and SD card its a proper bargain, basically half price. Let me know if you fancy it. Terry. 

[lozkerr]

On 08/05/2022 at 12:23, mcnach said:

Your solution sounds good, you can keep adding small levels of sophistication  The 2 mic idea is cool. I bought a pair of Behringer C2 (little condenser mics, they can be a bit noisy compared to proper good quality studio mics, but for this purpose they'd work well... I must try that, thank you for the tip!)

 

Yes, I am in Edinburgh (Little France way), been here since November 1999. It was supposed to be only 3 years... but this city grabs you and doesn't let you go. The weather reeks but the people are too nice and it's too much fun here   

 

edit: I have also considered using a compressor/limiter to give me a little extra peace of mind, but I didn't research this part well. Just another thing to consider.

I initially thought one mic would do, but this 'ere Gear4Music geezer grabbed me and said, 'wanna buy a mic, eh? Eh? 'Ere's one for twenty notes my darling, but just for you, I'll do yer two for 34 quid, 'cos I like the cut of yer jib, whadda yer say? Gowarn, yer know yer want to.'

 

They're cheap wee Sub Zero mics and I doubt they're particularly good quality, but if I can hear the wedges and singers, all's good in the hood. Having two will give some added flexibility - I was thinking of pointing one at the singers and the other at the nearest wedge monitor.

 

The ZS10 IEMs came with a few different tips and after trying them all in turn I think I've found a pair that work well. I'll try a few different ones if I still think I'm not getting a decent seal. I've been bombarded with noise three times on the trot now and I'd like to hear nothing other than what's coming through my IEMs.

 

Aye, Auld Reekie gets its claws into you. I'm in the middle of tourist central, at the top of the Royal Mile. I bought this place six years ago, after being exiled south of the Rio Tweed for most of my life, and I can still recall how I felt when I'd stop at the top of The Mound and just look across the city in awed wonder. There's plenty to b|tch about, no doubt about that - the Airbnb blight, overtourism, the never-ending car wars, the state of the roads, yada yada - but this is a fantastic city. I do feel very privileged to live here and have been born here[1].

 

[1] In Leith. Please don't tell the Old Town locals. They'd hang me in the Grassmarket if they knew]

Edited May 9, 2022 by lozkerr

[mcnach]

21 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Having been through this route with somebody else, I'd totally recommend the Zoom H8 - https://www.studiospares.com/zoom-h8-handy-recorder-378770.htm

 

Gives you the option for am ambient sound where you are standing (through it's own mics). And you can also take a feed from any desk that may be available... but also allow you to put your own mics out on key instruments, or take splits from mics already in place and control the levels all through the mixing facility on the zoom. When you price up a mixer (that can take 8 XLRs) and an pair of ambient mics, you're already quids in on the Zoom... and thats before you add in the recording option.

 

whoa, that's a beast!

(in a very good way)

[lozkerr]

Quick update. I've put the gear together - tonight was the first chance I've had to spend any time on it - and guess what?

 

It works! IT BLOODY WORKS!

 

Granted, I had to pull my practice rig apart to get the right cables and drape the living room in a spider's web of electric string to test everything, so it looked a bit messy, but I can mix the levels in my IEMs independently of whatever's going to the main desk.

 

I still have to test a few more things, and do the rounds of the local music shops to get some cables of the right length but I'll post some pics and a diagram of the signal path tomorrow, as @MacDaddyrequested.

 

Whoop whoop!

Edited May 13, 2022 by lozkerr
Errant missing word

[Owen]

How are your ears now? Tinnitus is cumulative damage. Be hyper careful. Like I and many others here were not. 

[lozkerr]

7 minutes ago, Owen said:

How are your ears now? Tinnitus is cumulative damage. Be hyper careful. Like I and many others here were not. 

They seem to have recovered OK, thankfully. I used my IEMs during rehearsal last night too, commandeering the PA monitor feed, and it really cut down the studio noise. I think they'll be a permanent fixture from now on.

[mcnach]

On 09/05/2022 at 23:42, lozkerr said:

I initially thought one mic would do, but this 'ere Gear4Music geezer grabbed me and said, 'wanna buy a mic, eh? Eh? 'Ere's one for twenty notes my darling, but just for you, I'll do yer two for 34 quid, 'cos I like the cut of yer jib, whadda yer say? Gowarn, yer know yer want to.'

 

They're cheap wee Sub Zero mics and I doubt they're particularly good quality, but if I can hear the wedges and singers, all's good in the hood. Having two will give some added flexibility - I was thinking of pointing one at the singers and the other at the nearest wedge monitor.

 

The ZS10 IEMs came with a few different tips and after trying them all in turn I think I've found a pair that work well. I'll try a few different ones if I still think I'm not getting a decent seal. I've been bombarded with noise three times on the trot now and I'd like to hear nothing other than what's coming through my IEMs.

 

Aye, Auld Reekie gets its claws into you. I'm in the middle of tourist central, at the top of the Royal Mile. I bought this place six years ago, after being exiled south of the Rio Tweed for most of my life, and I can still recall how I felt when I'd stop at the top of The Mound and just look across the city in awed wonder. There's plenty to b|tch about, no doubt about that - the Airbnb blight, overtourism, the never-ending car wars, the state of the roads, yada yada - but this is a fantastic city. I do feel very privileged to live here and have been born here[1].

 

[1] In Leith. Please don't tell the Old Town locals. They'd hang me in the Grassmarket if they knew]

 

 

Sorry, I seem to have missed this earlier!

 

What do you think of those ZS10? They've been in my shopping cart a few times but never went ahead thinking "they're relatively cheap, they can't be all that good" but they seem to be getting great reviews. Getting the right tip for you is key, 'though. 

 

Oh, you're really at the very centre of the city! It can get a bit busy with tourists, but it's a great area. When I arrived in Edinburgh I used to go for walks around there in the evening, when the streets are a lot quieter. Very fairytale-esque, in some ways. It's easy to get used to it. When I have family/friends visiting from Spain they all go "wow" and it takes me a minute to recognise that, yes, actually, this is pretty cool, it's just normal to me now

I remember the very first time I set foot in this city. I came by train, for a job interview, from Oxford. I had already lived a few years in the South: London, Norwich, Cambridge, Reading and Oxford... and as the taxi drove me to my destination I was looking around thinking "I must come here some day and explore, it seems like an interesting city". I didn't think I was going to get the job... but I did, back in November 1999. Now I don't want to leave. 

 

Hey, being a Leither is slowly becoming a badge of honour!