How does intonation work on basses with fixed bridges?

[Oomo]

I've seen a few basses which look like they've got fixed bridges (like acoustic guitars), e.g. Kristall bass: (https://www.facebook.com/kristallbass/posts/4498173800305313), acoustic basses, etc.

 

I'm wondering how intonation is set/tweaked on those? Is it adjusted elsewhere somehow? Or you just have to live with it being a bit out without replacing the bridge?

[warwickhunt]

You are stuck with whatever method/setting is done at the point of design/production.  Often as per acoustic guitars there is a fixed bias set across the strings which helps you out but can get messy with certain string gauges.  You just learn to not hold notes or play pairs of strings/chords higher up.    

 

Some basses do offer the opportunity to offset each string with adjustable slots etc but it is again, approximation.  

[PaulWarning]

most acoustic guitars manage without intonation adjustment, IMO it's overrated as a problem on basses, generally we don't play chords with loads of overdrive, unlike guitar players, so unless you've got perfect pitch (disclosure time, I've got the opposite, whatever that is) you or anybody else aren't going to notice, who does on fretless basses for instance? I once asked a double bass player about how accurate his playing was, intonation wise, his reply was "As long as you're somewhere near nobody is going to notice"

[MOSCOWBASS]

Ask Carol Kaye...LOL!

[Stub Mandrel]

I had the simple straight line but height adjustable bridge on my acoustic guitar replaced. The luthier fitted a bone bridge filed for intonation.  To my surprise the intonation is spot on at the 12th fret.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

The intonation on my fretless is fully adjustable, but for some reason it always sounds out of tune unless I’m playing an open string.

[shoulderpet]

On 13/05/2022 at 09:01, PaulWarning said:

most acoustic guitars manage without intonation adjustment, IMO it's overrated as a problem on basses, generally we don't play chords with loads of overdrive, unlike guitar players, so unless you've got perfect pitch (disclosure time, I've got the opposite, whatever that is) you or anybody else aren't going to notice, who does on fretless basses for instance? I once asked a double bass player about how accurate his playing was, intonation wise, his reply was "As long as you're somewhere near nobody is going to notice"

I totally agree, in fact most times when I get a new bass I don't even touch the intonation unless it is obviously off, no audience members or band members have ever said that my bass playing sounds out of tune.

 

The other thing is I learnt quickly that if you are too obsessive about intonation you will never be happy with any bass you play and the audience are unlikely to notice anyway

 

 

[PaulThePlug]

Stay down the shallow end, splash about and have fun...

My Harley B MBO850 Acoustic, was a little sharp and highish action, after removing the shim under the saddle blade both action and intonation are fairly bang on at the 12th, 

[Downunderwonder]

Every bass I ever bought had bad intonation. Some completely up the wazoo. By up the wazoo I mean noticeably off at 7th fret. I guess more bassists are badly tone deficient than you would think.

[zbd1960]

I suspect some of this (i.e. awareness of tuning) is down to musical background and context. If you're playing in a band with wailing guitars with a lot of overdrive etc. then tuning is not going to be that obvious. If you're playing in a set-up where the sounds are much cleaner and purer, then tuning/intonation are going to be more obvious. The other factor is the harmony and the function the note you are playing in that harmony. If you are just playing roots and fifths, tuning issues will be less apparent than if you're playing the major third. 

[chris_b]

Western standard tuning was designed as a compromise. There is a lot about this on the net.

 

Better accuracy of multi-scale tuning is one of the Dingwall selling points.

[warwickhunt]

13 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Western standard tuning was designed as a compromise. There is a lot about this on the net.

 

Better accuracy of multi-scale tuning is one of the Dingwall selling points.

 

I find this genuinely interesting because I've owned fan fret basses and basses with Buzz Feiten altered nuts etc which would mean I 'theoretically' was in better tuning than the guitar player... so did that mean we were now MORE out of tune with each other?  

 

If all musicians playing tuned instruments are using standard tuning and intonation than stringed instruments would be in tune with keyboards and each other but if one person starts using tempered tuning (Frank Gambale / true temperament any one?), you'd be out with the others. 

 

  

[Woodinblack]

On 13/05/2022 at 09:01, PaulWarning said:

IMO it's overrated as a problem on basses,

 

It really isn't. I was gigging my EHB at the weekend and for some reason my G string intonation was quite a bit out and it was terrible. If I had brought another bass I would have switched to that, but it was really cringy (ok, if I had been the guitarist I wouldn't notice). Frankly it is rare I play anything on that string at less than 7th fret, doing alright now, on the 17th is was very clearly out

Intonation is definately important.

[Stub Mandrel]

It's a problem when the listener's ear is better than the intonation on your bass.

 

They are unlikely to diagnose the issue, they just won't think you sound as good as they would if you were playing in tune.

 

 

 

 

[dclaassen]

I fret my basses out at the 12th fret and try to get the intonation spot on. The MPV does it easily, but the fretless is not quite in the same league. I want to be confident that a double-stop or a riff up on the dusty end sounds nice (so long as I play it nicely). 

[LeftyJ]

3 hours ago, chris_b said:

Better accuracy of multi-scale tuning is one of the Dingwall selling points.

 

It is not. The interval between the frets is exactly the same as on an instrument with parallel frets. The sole benefit of multiscale basses is the evenness of tone and string tension across the neck. 

 

The Buzz Feiten system addresses intonation by placing the nut closer to the 1st fret, and putting the open strings slightly out of tune so that intonation is more accurate higher up the fingerboard. Some electronic tuners have a special setting for "Buzz Feiten tuning" for this. On a Dingwall, all the intervals and the tuning are exactly the same as on any parallel fret bass with regular tuning. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by LeftyJ

[zbd1960]

There's not a lot that can be done with fixed frets. Older fretted instruments like the viol (viola da gamba) have moveable frets. They are just loops of fret gut tied onto the neck and you move them to tune them. Players who are better than I am will will adjust the tuning of the frets to some sort of temperament (e.g. sixth coma mean tone etc.) that will produce better tuning in specific keys. Some will even 'split' the frets (they are double loops) so that for example the diatonic semi-tone of C# in the key of say D maj is distinct from the chromatic Db... Complications like that are why keyboards and fixed fret instruments settled on equal temperament.  

[bass_dinger]

On 17/05/2022 at 11:29, LeftyJ said:

 

It is not. The interval between the frets is exactly the same as on an instrument with parallel frets. The 

 

The Buzz Feiten system addresses intonation by placing the nut closer to the 1st fret, and putting the open strings slightly out of tune so that intonation is more accurate higher up the fingerboard. 

 

 

My own bass has the Buzz Feiten system.  For the past 6 months I have been seeing that a tuned open string gives me a sharp fretted string. 

 

I have started tuning to the fretted notes.

 

@LeftyJ's post explains why. Cheers!

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, bass_dinger said:

 

My own bass has the Buzz Feiten system.  For the past 6 months I have been seeing that a tuned open string gives me a sharp fretted string. 

 

I have started tuning to the fretted notes.

 

@LeftyJ's post explains why. Cheers!

 

May I ask what's the point of a system that makes theopen string flat? 🤔

[Guest]

Intonation is a compromise. It is virtually impossible to get a fretted guitar or bass in tune all over the neck because of that compromise (equal temperament). It’s more noticeable on a guitar because of the higher pitch and when playing chords. However, even on a bass it can be a bit of an issue. Try playing C on A string 15th fret then G on D string, 17th fret, followed by the same C, then G on G string, 12th fret. More often than not the 2 G notes won’t sound the same, because the same fretted note across 2 adjacent strings is quite hard to get perfect without messing up the pitch of other notes on the string.

Therefore a ‘there or thereabouts” setting is plenty good enough for most basses. If you really want a headache and your bass has 24 frets, try getting the intonation spot on at 5th 12th, 17th and 24th frets… talk about a moving target  

[Stub Mandrel]

A zero fret helps, but isn't fashionable.

[shoulderpet]

24 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

A zero fret helps, but isn't fashionable.

Doesn't seem to help Hofner 😂  (Thats not a dig I actually quite like Hofner's but they were never known for there intonation

 

[Stub Mandrel]

49 minutes ago, shoulderpet said:

Doesn't seem to help Hofner 😂  (Thats not a dig I actually quite like Hofner's but they were never known for there intonation

 

 

I suspect the problem lies at the far end of the strings to the zero fret...

[yorks5stringer]

I had a 5 string Acoustic Crafter which I bought at the Birmingham Guitar Show many moons ago. The low B was fine when new but I stupidy changed strings and despite me subsequently trying thinner and thicker, gold, bronze and stainless strings  even at the 3rd and 5th frets it sounded out with the other 4 strings. In the end I got rid of it( to a shop, not here!).

[bass_dinger]

On 26/05/2022 at 08:01, Stub Mandrel said:

 

May I ask what's the point of a system that makes theopen string flat? 🤔

Or, indeed, what confidence does the fretting system give the player, when its name includes the word Buzz - and the second word sounds like Fighting. 

 

I am yet to find out how to tune the thing properly.  I have heard "fret the note E on each string, and tune to that. Also "some tuners have a Buzz Feiten setting ".

 

However, I am yet to find a definitive answer. 

 

Perhaps it is like adjusting the bias on your tape deck.  It can be done, it will sound better, but good luck finding someone who can do it.