Guest MoJo Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I have been playing bass in bedrooms and in bands for nigh on 30 years yet still struggle to recreate the bass sound I hear in my head in a live situation. I recently swapped from using a Laney B1 head and 4x10 cabinet to a Trace Elliot 122H (2x10 + HF, GP12 pre) after hearing a local band in which the bass player (using the new 500w Trace 2x10 combo) had [u]that[/u] sound. My live sound seemed to improve thanks mainly to judicious use of the on-board dual band compressor but was still far from perfect. Last Saturday's gig was the clincher for me. In our set we include a cover of Jet's 'Are You Gonna Be My Girl' starting with the bass and tambourine. The sound of my BB414 (both pick-ups on full and tone control wide open) through the Trace was awful. No warmth, no punch. Then today, to add insult to injury I went to see a local band play. The bass player was playing a Mexican Jazz though a Peavey Nitrobass head into a Marshall 4x12 cabinet and it sounded great. Exactly the sound I was after. Not too bright and not too woolly either, really punchy and cut through the mix superbly. When the guy added a little distortion while playing The Automatic's hit 'Monster' it was blissful. I wanted all his gear and in the break I told him so. Why do I find it so difficult to find that sound. I've tried boosting the mids/low-mids and cutting the top-end a bit but I cannot get a sound that I'm happy with. Can anyone help me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) I'd suggest a few things. Firstly you were not hearing the other people's sound from the player's perspective. 2 feet in front of your cab it will sound totally different to down there in the mosh pit... I asked a knowledgable bassplaying mate to come for a rehearsal session and to widdle with my knobs with a free hand, matron. Made a big difference. Apart from that, of course, it's in the fingers and they would probably sound jus as good through your gear with your bass Edited April 13, 2009 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassBod Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I don't think there's a player alive who's ever totally happy with their sound - and it really is a complicated issue. First thing - stage sound is never as good as out front...and is often shockingly bad, even with great gear. Sometimes (well, more often than not?) you just have to have faith that the audience is hearing a better tone than you are. Second - do you like the sound of your bass? What does it sound like both direct (no eq) or through an amp? Years ago I thought you could change a bass sound to "fit" different circumstances. Now I "cast" a bass for a gig - and honestly the only basses I've found that always work are Precisions or Alembics...but the Alembics often look wrong. Maybe try a fender style passive bass? Third - a good sound at home/rehearsal often doesn't work at gig level and acoustics. Be flexible, don't put too much low end out on the stage and let the PA carry the house sound. With a trace, don't let your graphic settings stay the same from gig to gig - go back to flat and start again for each room. Its easy to get used to a fairly overblown sound if you don't check back regularly. Hope some of the above helps? BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 I would almost never buy someone's gear to get their sound - so rarely works. My gut feeling is that your speakers simply can't move enough air for your needs - most 2x10" cabs have so little volume displacement (surface area x excursion) and I'm sure the TE combo is no different. Even a cheap 4x12" will be able to move way more air than your 2x10" and Peavey have a history of producing cabs which may lack in the midrange but can certainly do big bottom. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 (edited) Oh and there's quite a few of us on here that just can't get the sound they want out of TE gear. The best value "sound investment" I've made in the last few years is the Gramma pad sonic isolator. Really makes the sound more controllable. Edited April 13, 2009 by OldGit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niceguyhomer Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 The sound is - as always, in your fingers. That is the pure and simple truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Some sound (no pun intended) advice there. I always start with the graphic a) flat and turned off as is the Pre-shape, the added harmonic control, the valve pre and the compressor. I then start to introduce different things to tailor the sound to something aurally pleasing while standing about 6 to 8 feet away from the amp but usually at a lower level. All my basses are passive and I love that classic precision sound. I had considered that maybe I wasn't moving enough air but I couldn't get [i]that[/i] sound with my Japanese made Precision through the two 4 x 10's I previously owned. Maybe it's the 12's, I don't know. I know that I cannot turn off the HF driver in the Trace which is a nuisance as reducing the top end on the EQ just makes the bass sound dull. With the tone control on the bass up full and the EQ on the amp flat, it's too bright, with too much fret noise for me. Our guitarist has offered to let me take the amp to his industrial unit where I can utilise my radio pack to get further away from my amp and get used to tweaking the controls to get more of an idea. I'm going to take my P-bass with it's flatwound Chrome XL's and my Elite-strung BB414 for a comparison. It maybe that the trace just doesn't cut it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote name='niceguyhomer' post='461643' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:16 PM']The sound is - as always, in your fingers. That is the pure and simple truth.[/quote] It'd be interesting to hear another player through my rig to see if it was me. I have experimented with different techniques over the years and tried playing in different positions. I think that the clinical cleanliness of the Trace may just be too clean for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
escholl Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='461658' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:27 PM']With the tone control on the bass up full and the EQ on the amp flat, it's too bright, with too much fret noise for me.[/quote] what if you just roll off the tone control a bit? that will def help with the fret noise and high end nastiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerdragon Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Iv'e just come my local where a mate was playing a Thin Lizzie tribute band, they were brilliant apart from the singer, anyway, my mate has an Ibanez active whatever it is going through an Hartke amp and a Trace 18inch. the sound was, well i was crying in the bogs. just what i wanted. thing is i'm not into Ibanez basses. and never in a million years am i going to play one, there are many reasons. so I am just going to solder on with my Fender MIA and Trace rig at the moment. not that there's anything wrong with it but i cant get that sound. sell it and get the sound i want at a cheaper price or sell it and spend even more money on a Ric or an active Fender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 how about using a set of in ear monitors? might save on the back ache too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 Could you describe the sound you're after? I'm very happy with my sound but it took a long time to get here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 The problem here is knowing what you need to change to get the sound you can hear in your head. I've been plagued by this for all my playing life. I've told this tale before but at one of the jams I go to there's a POS TE bass combo and a POS bass. 4 or 5 of us experienced bass players go an do "house bass" duties for several numbers each week. It sounds OK but then Burke Shelly (famous for being the voice and bass in Budgie - ask your dad) comes down and he makes it sound fabulous. Loads of it is in the fingers, his attack, his positioning on the strings, but also the settings he chooses on the amp and bass. He tends to play softer with it turned up louder where as I attack the thing with the amp master turned down lower. A lesson there I think.. By far the best sound I ever get is through my aincient 15 watt WEM Clubman practice amp. It's not even a valve amp. The trouble is I need that sound but from a 500 watt rig capable of throwing clean sound the length of a hall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='461686' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:54 PM']It sounds OK but then Burke Shelly (famous for being the voice and bass in Budgie - ask your dad)[/quote] Ask me Dad....I'm 47....I know who Burke Shelly is.... We're actually playing at a charity fundraiser in May to raise money for research into Parkinsons disease. The event is spear-headed by Pete Boot, one time drummer with Budgie. We had though about covering Breadfan as a tribute. I wonder if Mr. Shelly would like to come and have a blast through my gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote name='OldGit' post='461686' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:54 PM']He tends to play softer with it turned up louder where as I attack the thing with the amp master turned down lower. A lesson there I think..[/quote] Certainly worth trying. This guy I saw playing today didn't seem to be attacking the strings with the same vigour as I do and yet he got a good amount of volume......hmmmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted April 13, 2009 Share Posted April 13, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='461708' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:23 PM']Ask me Dad....I'm 47....I know who Burke Shelly is.... We're actually playing at a charity fundraiser in May to raise money for research into Parkinsons disease. The event is spear-headed by Pete Boot, one time drummer with Budgie. We had though about covering Breadfan as a tribute. I wonder if Mr. Shelly would like to come and have a blast through my gear. [/quote] I have his number if you'd like to ask him yourself ... : Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='OldGit' post='461717' date='Apr 13 2009, 11:27 PM']I have his number if you'd like to ask him yourself ... :[/quote] OG...you've topped me in 'Name-Dropping' Top Trumps That'd be something though. Even if you never rang him, just to have his number in your phone like Batman, to call upon in times of trouble I very much doubt that he'd drive all the way to the midlands to help a poor wretch like me and it might not be the best idea. If he sounded good with my gear when I can't get a decent sound out of it, the demoralisation could cause me to give up playing altogether. Edited April 14, 2009 by bassman2790 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) [quote name='The Funk' post='461683' date='Apr 13 2009, 10:50 PM']Could you describe the sound you're after? I'm very happy with my sound but it took a long time to get here.[/quote] It's less of a 'sound' I suppose because I'd like to be able to tailor it to suit different songs, brighten it up for a Duff McKagan-like tone or round it off for a Bob Daisley Bark-At-The-Moon tone. It's more of a 'presence' that sits with the drums, driving the band, creating the tonal palette for vocals and guitar to embellish on. One earlier post said that the two 10" drivers don't move enough air, but we're only talking pub gigs here, playing to 60 - 100 people and as I said earlier the bassist with Angel House fills the pub with his bass through his 2x10 trace Combo. Have a listen to World On Fire or Superstitious Woman on their website [url="http://www.myspace.com/angelhouserock"]here[/url] and you'll get an idea of what I'm after. Phil uses the Lo-Fat setting as below [attachment=23753:Lo_Fat.jpg] He plays a four string active Yamaha BB with the EQ on the bass flat and plays with a pick. Edited April 14, 2009 by bassman2790 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='461763' date='Apr 14 2009, 07:17 AM']One earlier post said that the two 10" drivers don't move enough air, but we're only talking pub gigs here, playing to 60 - 100 people and as I said earlier the bassist with Angel House fills the pub with his bass through his 2x10 trace Combo.[/quote] With that EQ he's getting a nice bump in the lows where the combo can handle it. He's using a pick which always helps cut through better. And if his picking less hard then his tone will be less demanding on the amp with less extreme transients on the leading edge of the note (which are what tend to push amps to clipping without producing useful output). I still think a 2x10" is very borderline when it comes to producing fat bottom at gigging SPL - it's possible but it requires the right kind of technique on the bass, a drummer who can control his dynamics and a guitarist that leaves a sonic space in the mix for the bass. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 I wouldn't beat yourself up about your sound too much. As long as you've got a powerful enough set-up, it's usually the room that makes the difference. If it's brickwalls and empty, it'll never sound as good as a full pub. Played a wedding in a wine cellar recently and it was so "live" it sounded like I was playing underwater! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MoJo Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote name='alexclaber' post='461772' date='Apr 14 2009, 08:16 AM']I still think a 2x10" is very borderline when it comes to producing fat bottom at gigging SPL Alex[/quote] Do you think I'd benefit from adding another 2103 cabinet (2x10, the 8 ohm cab in parallel with the 8 ohm impedance of the built in drivers will still keep the overall impedance within the 4 ohm limit) or would I be better with the 1153 ( 1 x 15 ) ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 It's worth noting that "bedroom tone" and "onstage tone" are often completely different. I have my backline with a much brighter 'clanky' sound than I prefer on it's own, but it can be heard onstage without being too loud, and the sound gets thickened up a bit by the PA so sounds ace out front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote name='Adrenochrome' post='461786' date='Apr 14 2009, 09:05 AM']it can be heard onstage without being too loud, and the sound gets thickened up a bit by the PA so sounds ace out front.[/quote] To add to that point, I've found myself actually competing with the FOH PA at times. Our sound engineer tended to cane the low frequencies quite a bit, at least until the subs overheated and failed a few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutToPlayJazz Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 (edited) As others have said, it's not usually down to gear. I run MarkBass gear usually & totally hifi sounding basses, but the room can make a massive difference. In some places I play, my rig sounds awesome! In others it sounds like a crock of s**t. You can never tell. Big hollow stages don't help, either - Too much boom. Wherever possible, make sure your cab/combo is making good contact with the floor, ie. not on an amp stand or on wheels. Like many of you, I love my small rig sound - Playing at low volumes is usually a great deal more satisfying. I love the sound of my Warwick Triumph upright through my little Roland bass cube when doing jazz trio/quartet jobs or with a big band. Edited April 14, 2009 by OutToPlayJazz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted April 14, 2009 Share Posted April 14, 2009 [quote name='bassman2790' post='461782' date='Apr 14 2009, 08:52 AM']Do you think I'd benefit from adding another 2103 cabinet (2x10, the 8 ohm cab in parallel with the 8 ohm impedance of the built in drivers will still keep the overall impedance within the 4 ohm limit) or would I be better with the 1153 ( 1 x 15 ) ?[/quote] I think adding either cab will make a big difference but can't say which will work better. Also you do need to bear in mind that room acoustics have a horrible degree of effect upon your tone. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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