Twiggy - An EBB5 bass prototype

[SamIAm]

 

 

Introduction

I've been playing at playing bass for a few years, but recently kicked it up a notch and moved from UBASS to my current MCR-1 Short Scale.

I really like it ... but ... there are some things I would like to be different ... none of them can be achieved by modding Ponty so I started looking for a bass that ticked my boxes; which are:

 

• Short overall length (33 inches or less). I play in a ukulele band and I do not want my bass to appear out of place (Does my bass look big in this band?)  Plus a smaller bass is lighter (I've a bad back), easier to handle/transport and probably less dangerous to my band mates ...
• 
• 5 Strings - Specifically a BEADG tuning.  Hmmm ... to avoid the low B feeling/sounding like a piece of wet spaghetti it seems that a scale scale length of 31 inches or more is needed (Looking at various high quality short scale bass makers e.g. Birdsong) ... but how to fit that in a 33 inch bass?
• Headless
• 0 fret

 

Having searched a lot I could not find anyone brilliant (insane!?) enough to be making this kind of thing and so the EBB5

 

Eclectic - design draws on ideas from all over

Bespoke - custom build

B - bass guitar

5 - 5 strings

 

She shall be called Flo (It's a tide thing).

 

And this will be her story ...

 

S'manth

 

edit:  Building Flo turned into a building protoype build of Twiggy (5 string, fretless made from a 2x4 I happened to have lying around).

After a delightful outcome I'm about to embark on Flo, learning from my mistakes and some successes with Twiggy ... new build diary here Flo - A second generation EBB5 bass

Edited August 8, 2022 by Smanth
Updated details

[Andyjr1515]

Excellent.  Watching with interest 

 

Also,  @Jabba_the_gut has some great experience at getting crazy short bass strings not feeling or sounding like a piece of wet spaghetti.  Hopefully he'll drop by from time to time 

 

[Merton]

Also very interested to see how this develops

 

@eude and I (and many others to be fair) own ACGs with 32" or shorter scale lengths with excellent bottom B strings :0 For me Newtone and LaBella seem to have the medium and short scale string science sorted; that along with the construction of the neck and neck/body join are the key things I think.

[SamIAm]

7 hours ago, Merton said:

Also very interested to see how this develops

 

@eude and I (and many others to be fair) own ACGs with 32" or shorter scale lengths with excellent bottom B strings 

The ACGs are gorgeous ... as are those that @Andyjr1515 creates ... and the ones I've seen that @Jabba_the_gut made are fab!

I like to think Flo will have some ... interesting features ... I'm trying to put together a visual design and for insights from those who done it before! 

 

S'manth x

 

[Jabba_the_gut]

Watching with interest! I’ve been accumulating parts for a similar build - I got some Delano Xtender pickups a while ago that I plan on building around.

 

Agree with the others regarding Newtone strings. Really looking forward to seeing your design evolve. Cheers

Edited May 31, 2022 by Jabba_the_gut

[SamIAm]

I have never considered designing a stringed instrument before.  The most advanced thing I've attempted to date was 3D printing ... a kazoo! 🤣

 

In my mind's eye I can almost picture how Flo will look; I can imagine how she will feel to hold.

My mind's ear is not so clear, simply want Flo to sound lovely and thuddy, no nasty buzzing or other artefacts; It is her basic sound that I'm thinking about as I imagine I can affect this quite a bit by my technique and a good signal chain.

 

I'm going to be documenting my musings, things I've found, ideas etc here; partly 'for the record', partly so that others may find something of interest ... but a large part of it is to expose the design to the BC gang who have "been there & done that" and will hopefully point out any gaffs ... before I make them.

 

So ... if you spot something that is not quite right, please pitch in!

 

S'manth x

 

[SamIAm]

 I'm attempting to 'scale the heights' of the early design of Flo. (Sorry 😜).

It appears that the scale & fretboard will be a major (perhaps the major?) driver of the design.  It will determine neck length, bridge positioning, etc.

 

Fundamental to the EBB5 is the use of 5 strings; I wish to give myself the extra low range provided by a B0 string so for open tuning I'm aiming for B0 E1 A1 D2 G2.

 

From what I have read on the internet, it seems that longer B strings play/sound better ... some claim that the speaking length on a B0 string needs to be 31/32 inches or more (I've been heavily influenced by the lovely basses that birdsong produce).

 

This site was my favourite describing how 'not to fret' about fret spacing ... (Sorry again).  I'm reading it through and am likely to do so again (and again).

 

I started to poke around at the various fret spacing tools on the internet and then came across this great video on creating a parametric fretboard model in Fusion 360 (I use Fusion a lot for 3D printing)

 

 

OK, so this will let me model things ... but during this research more questions came up than were being answered, for example:

 

If I am aiming for a 32 inch B0 scale length, what should my G2 be?  So I started scouring specs for various other guitars (Very much a work in progress)

 

But it seems that the B0/G2 ratio tends to lie in the 1.06-1.09 range.

But why any particular scale length for a B0?  I mean, why pick 812.8 (32 inch) and not 815 or 830?

Given that I just want it to sound good and not be too floppy, what is "best"?

I gather that the construction of the string (diameter/core/winding/taper) will affect stiffness and mass per unit length, which will in turn affect resonance of the open string (Does this even matter!?).  Several folks have mentioned Newtone custom strings and looking at the permutations gave me a headache! 🤣

 

And then ... I stumbled across this

 

Mind blown!

 

So the stiffness of a string can affect how floppy it will be, but can also affect how well intoned it will play ... but also impact on the scale length and the tension being playable and ...

 

I feel like I cannot see the woods for the trees! 😱

 

I am finding it all very interesting, but ...

Is there some "scientific" way I can land on an "optimum" scale length per string (or at least for B0 & G2 which would then drive the other string's scale lengths ... did I say I'm going for a multiscale) or do I just stick my finger in the air and decide "How long is a piece of guitar string" ... or is there another way?

 

Guidance/help/experience all very (very) welcome!

 

S'manth x

 

[Richard R]

2 hours ago, Smanth said:

But why any particular scale length for a B0?  I mean, why pick 812.8 (32 inch) and not 815 or 830?

I think the answer is pretty obvious in this case - the US uses feet and inches, so 32" is just a round number.

 

My 5 string has 35" scale, because the designer thought it was better than 34", for the low B. There are 5 strings with 34", 32" and so on, and they all work. I wouldn't get hung up on the perfect design, there isn't one. And from everything I have read on this forum, the first bass you make won't be the last, it's the one you learn on.

So if 32" feels about right to you, and everyone with experience says Newtone will make strings to sound good, then go with that length, and move on to the next decision.

 

(Disclaimer: my first bass build is postponed until retirement, and also when I feel I can play the damn' thing well enough!)

 

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, Richard R said:

... And from everything I have read on this forum, the first bass you make won't be the last, it's the one you learn on.

This is one of the scariest things I've read of late! 🤣

[Jabba_the_gut]

44 minutes ago, Smanth said:

This is one of the scariest things I've read of late! 🤣

It’s so true - you have been warned!!

[Geek99]

You might want to get dimensions from @petecarlton he has a tiny bass that works really well. I’ve played it 

[Andyjr1515]

4 hours ago, Smanth said:

Is there some "scientific" way I can land on an "optimum" scale length per string (or at least for B0 & G2 which would then drive the other string's scale lengths ... did I say I'm going for a multiscale) or do I just stick my finger in the air and decide "How long is a piece of guitar string" ... or is there another way?

I've said it before, but guitars and basses are basically a series of compromises held together by hope  

 

Yes - there are certain geometrical truths

 

Yes - there are laws of physics

 

But that is maybe only 10% of the design decisions that are fixed or constrained for you.  That means that 90% of the decisions aren't constrained and are more about choices and compromises.   But most things do affect other things to a larger or smaller degree.

 

So I find that the best way is to pin down something that is important to me in this design and then consider:

- what is affected by that decision?

and

- do I need to mitigate that effect?

and, if so

- how can I, or can I, mitigate it? 

 

And while it is always worth thinking, 'why are most xxx's you see on basses done like that?', never assume that it has to be done like that.  Sometimes that is as simple as some guy 70 years ago picking up a bunch of ex-army surplus switches that were 2 1/2" deep and so that's how thick the body will have to be.  And because the basses worked quite well, everyone else started using the same switches and built bodies the same thickness.  So tell me again...why are 'traditional' electric basses and guitars SO heavy?? 

 

So yes - the lower B is the one that is going to flop around the most.  The shorter it is, the worse that gets at a given string thickness and tension...but you can change those.  And yes, changing those will indeed affect the intonation...but as long that has been considered, that it quite easily fixable by either fixing the bridge in the right place or having enough adjustment range in the saddles.  Sounds like an achievable objective to me

 

 

 

[3below]

Be warned, it is highly addictive, worse than GAS.  From my experience, unless something miraculous happens you will not build the perfect bass (or whatever) in the first attempt.  There will be blunders in your construction / design, even when you measure carefully (and then add 5mm on rather than subtract as was needed), miscount (13th fret octave inlay!), or run a template round-over router bit into the body edge jack socket hole (should have been drilled after rounding body edges).  The fun (for me) is using the tools effectively, making jigs and fixtures to solve build problems and in working my way out of blunders.  I then resolve not to make those on the next build but strangely new incidents emerge.  As you build more you get better at it

 

In view of the above, I would suggest not using premium materials in a first build, the costs add up rather quickly.

 

Shameless self plug, a different bass, an experiment because I could.  Enjoy the mistakes   If you want quality @Andyjr1515 and @Jabba_the_gut spring to mind amongst many others.

Edited June 2, 2022 by 3below
spelling!

[Richard R]

12 hours ago, Geek99 said:

You might want to get dimensions from @petecarlton he has a tiny bass that works really well. I’ve played it 

Is that the one that was at the Midlands Bass Bash in October? That was ridiculously small, I couldn't play it, but did sound good in other people's hands. 

Who brought along the teno uke strung with bass strings? That was lovely to play, much nicer than the titchy U-basses.

[SamIAm]

So basically, what I'm hearing...

 

S'manth, less

 

and more

 

 

 

And so ...

 

B0 - 800mm scale length (31.49 in)

G2 - 730mm scale length (28.74 in)

 

And now to model it

 

S'manth x

[Andyjr1515]

Yup - pretty much, on all counts  

 

[Geek99]

Yep @Richard R that one indeed, looked like a jig saw 

[Richard R]

2 hours ago, Geek99 said:

Yep @Richard R that one indeed, looked like a jig saw 

This one.

[SamIAm]

14 minutes ago, Richard R said:

This one.

They sound really quite good!

 

They do a multiscale, but it's too wee for me

[zbd1960]

You can read some serious physics on this... just vaguely digging A level physics form the 1970s out.... the wavelength that you want to produce (B) is affected by amongst other things the mass of the string and its length are the key ones with roles for stiffness, gauge, and tension... Whatever combination you settle on will be a compromise in some way or another. Unless assaulted by an attack of insanity, don't even think about gut strings... when it comes to tuning stability they belong in their own circle of hell    

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, zbd1960 said:

You can read some serious physics on this... just vaguely digging A level physics form the 1970s out.... 

Similar, I did my Physics A level in the early 80s ... it was always my favorite subject.  The reading I've been doing is fascinating and I do grok the underlying factors better than I did a few days ago ... now I think I'm just going to go to NewTone, tell them what I'm looking for and let them do their magic! 

S'manth x

[3below]

tl;dr  NewTone strings will be most helpful in just doing it   I use a .140 B string on my 34" 5 string, I have a heavy right hand technique.

 

Key (simplified) maths is here https://www.hago.org.uk/faqs/formulae/index.php (or read Resnick & Halliday, Nelkon, Muncaster etc., I will confess to being a Physicist, now retired). Combining the equations gives :

 

t = 16df^2Lu

 

t = deflection force (how floppy or tight they feel)

d = deflection (how far you pluck them)

f = frequency

(f^2 frequency squared)

L = string length

u = mass / unit length  (roughly guided by string gauge, not simple since there is complexity within due to string construction, core etc.  In Physics world we do not have roundwound, flatwound etc. we just have solid flexible rods) 

 

Bigger, thicker (hence greater u ) and/or longer length will increase string tension, they are of equal importance. There is much said about how 35" scale length improves the B string compared to 34", the physics suggests this is only a 3% increase. It may be that 3% is significant in this situation.  However, other factors are in play here, e.g. string length between the nut and machine head, between the saddle and bridge anchor point.  They will inherently be involved in the deflection length (unless the bass concerned has clamped strings at the bridge and nut).  As @Andyjr1515 states, it is "basically a series of compromises held together by hope".

 

The time honoured Physics approach is needed, do it, try it, and then, because we are Physicists, make it bigger (or smaller) and see what happens .  Edward Teller had some concerns that the A bomb would ignite the atmosphere and oceans, other Physicists thought this was improbable (hence still probable), so we just cracked on......

 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by 3below

[eude]

As a player of 5 and 6 string basses with 31.5" scale, I can wholeheartedly say that scale length is only part of the puzzle, doing the other bits well can make the effect of scale length fade away.

I play ACG basses almost exclusively, but @Andyjr1515 took a huge 6 string bass I built myself and brought it back to life with a 31.5" scale neck to replace the 36" one I'd foolishly gone for. The low B on that is lovely too.

 

In isolation, the low B on a 35" or 36" is always going to be better, assuming the bass has been built properly with considered material choice and decent construction, but in almost every other context, you'll be glad you went for a shorter scale 😎

 

[SamIAm]

53 minutes ago, eude said:

you'll be glad you went for a shorter scale

I totally buy that!  Having only played UBASSes, I did go shopping for a bass guitar.  With a 34inch I felt like I was having to reach into the building next door to reach the low frets and my previously effortless stretching over 5 frets could barely manage 3!  I did have an Ibanez Mikro 4 string for a short time (I really liked it) but I play in a ukulele band and it stood out like a sore thumb!  Ponty (my bass) has a scale length of 24.5 and I really like it, but in going for a 5'er I don't think I could get away that short

 

AGCs appear lovely! And the work that Andy turns out is amazing! 

[Jabba_the_gut]

Out of interest, what hardware are you looking to use? There doesn’t seem to be too much headless hardware out there.
A lot of four string builds use the ‘Overlord of music’ units. These can be a bit hit or miss quality wise but that is why they are cheap!! But they don’t do a five string.
Nova headless units are really nicely made - I was going to use one on a build but each tuner slides on the baseplate to set intonation and things not lining up messes with my OCD!!! They are mid price units and are available in five string.

Then it starts to get a bit pricey as you look at Hipshot units or ABM single tuners. All very nice quality but that is reflected in the price. The headpiece for these alone was about £70 last time I looked!!

 

Just curious really to what you were thinking.

 

Cheers