Richard R Posted June 4, 2022 Share Posted June 4, 2022 3 hours ago, Jabba_the_gut said: things not lining up messes with my OCD!!! This is going to be a short scale, mulit-scale headless bass. If you're worried about things not lining up, you may want to stop following this thread 😁 Though mitigating against that, if it's anything like @Smanth's midi pedalboard controller build, it will be fab. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 22 hours ago, Richard R said: This is going to be a short scale, mulit-scale headless bass. If you're worried about things not lining up, you may want to stop following this thread 😁 Much to my horror I'm finding this already! 😱 @Jabba_the_gut, headless hardware is proving to be a challenge. Some of the features I'm looking for are common/rare/expensive. Captive ball-end head mount: Let's start with the easy bit lol! There seem to be a number of approaches. I prefer to not use a grub screw approach (I find it too easy to lose Allen keys!) So the options seem to be these two approaches. I need to ensure that the distance between the ball-end and the string winding is short enough so that the strings are at their full diameter when they get to my 0 fret. Individual bridge units. The approach I'm taking to reduce the LOA of Flo is to use a string through body design with the bridge front mounted and the tuners on the rear. ⁉️ Given she's multi-scale the bridges are quite spread out and so the units need to be individual. And look at that ... LOA of 846mm (33.3 in) and B0 scale length of 780mm (30.7 in) ... just what I was aiming for (I wonder if it will sound good ... or even play at all!) They also need to be thru body compatible. There seem to be a few about, the Babizc FCH are my favourites (But about $80 each!) Others range in price (From ... "I'd need to sell body parts" to "At that price it must be made of cardboard") I might look at getting a set of these and mounting them in individual strips of angle metal Google turns up a number of DIY bridges, so this approach seems viable. Tuning machines The tuning machines (I think) can be in a single block or separate units. ALP do something that 'might' do the trick, but whilst the reviews I've read praise it's design ... it seems to be built from low quality materials which means it slips/slides/detunes too easily The more I research the more I come to believe that Steinberger is the god of tuning machine designs. Two of these stand out to me as being suitable for Flo. Steinberger Locking Gearless Tuners They need no tools, have a ration of 40:1 and are not insanely expensive (< £100 for a set of six) but ... they state a maximum string gauge of 0.060! I believe that I am going to need thick strings for my B0 (perhaps 0.130) I wonder for a 0.130 outer wrap diameter what the core diameter would be; I know it will differ from one mfr to another but ... ? I wonder if it is "safe" to only have the inner core go through the tuning machine or if would cause the outer wrap to unravel? The other tuners I love are those on NS Design Radius. But I am not even sure they are sold separately and would likely cost way too much! Buy or Build The ball-end head thingies seem easy enough to make, the saddle/bridge a little more complex. NS Design Details can be found in the patent. 🤔I wonder if I should aim for a hat-trick build. How cool would it be that if someone asks me "Which elements of Flo I custom designed" I could answer "All of them". Tho, just for clarity, at present I am most certainly not thinking about winding my own pups! S'manth x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba_the_gut Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Something like this came up in the past and I wondered if you could do a multi scale headless with double ball end strings and a one piece bridge. Essentially the strings are all the same length but the nut would be angled and individual saddles used to give the required string lengths (if this makes sense). I did a simple drawing on here for this a while back but can’t remember where!! No idea how this would be for string tension- I really should mock it up sometime to try. I’ve had a few ideas in the past that I think would look neat but no-one makes the hardware that I would need and I’m not going down that custom route!! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 5 minutes ago, Jabba_the_gut said: Something like this came up in the past and I wondered if you could do a multi scale headless with double ball end strings and a one piece bridge. Essentially the strings are all the same length but the nut would be angled and individual saddles used to give the required string lengths (if this makes sense). I did a simple drawing on here for this a while back but can’t remember where!! No idea how this would be for string tension- I really should mock it up sometime to try. How would you do this? Apart from getting Nelson to do it ... S'manth x (And please dig, dig, dig some more ... I'd love to see your drawing) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard R Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) I hate the term "Tuning machines". I always read it as "Turing machines", which are theoretical machines comprising infinite tape and a read/write head, and capable of solving any computationally solvable problem. Edited June 5, 2022 by Richard R Typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 59 minutes ago, Richard R said: I had the term "Tuning machines". I always read it as "Turing machines", which are theoretical machines comprising infinite tape and a read/write head, and capable of solving any computationally solvable problem. In this case it may well be tuning machines from Turing machines. 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Surely some one somewhere already solved these problems … 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) Party dampener here, apologies. The Steinberger machines appear to be guitar only, there is some internet debate if they can withstand the tension of bass strings (assuming you can get the core into them). The NS design detail in the patent leaves me wondering how they got a patent (the US patent office is notorious for missing prior art or the 'obvious invention to a practitioner in the field'). It reminds me of a violin fine tuner combined with half of cam lock Patent was filed in 2001 so has expired. If we are lucky lower cost clones or improved versions might appear. The challenge to find a good solution continues Edited June 5, 2022 by 3below Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Here's some previous thoughts by the collective hive https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/320848-headless-designing/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, 3below said: Party dampener here, apologies. The Steinberger machines appear to be guitar only, there is some internet debate if they can withstand the tension of bass strings (assuming you can get the core into them). Not at all ... thanks for taking the time to read and contribute. I agree the points you raise may be challenging. I've emailed Newtone to ask what sort of string will I need on my B0 to get a reasonable tension (and what will that tension be); the whole tension thing has me scratching my head a lot! But if I get away with a tension that is within the range found on a guitar then I should be OK? The 0.060 size limit is a bummer, I imagine I'll need a larger gauge; so assuming B was too big but C would fit the tuner I've asked Newtone if I can use just the core (C) through a tuner or if it would lead to wrap delamination. And if it is a problem, could they do another thinner wrap that would cover the B-C section in my diagram and run some way along the B towards A ... if this thinner wrap plus the core was 0.060 or less then we're cooking (subject to the tension question). I also asked them whether sending the string around the pulley was likely to cause any problems for the string. I saw the patent expiry but I don't understand enough about patent law, can they not just tweak it a bit to be more in line with what they actually do (as you say the original is very vague) and then renew it or get a new patent? Having said that a slew of 3rd party makers may be good, tho the reviews I've seen of other Steinberger copy tuners (you know who you are) do not make me think they are worth investigating. If only my 3D printer could print metal parts! S'manth x Edited June 5, 2022 by Smanth fix typo 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 I'll put some more meat on the bones in the morning, but I think that the double-ball approach is an unnecessary complication for the short-scale multi-scale you have in mind. Cheaper to buy 4 allen keys and keep one in every place you can think of than being stuck with always having to buy some very custom strings (and getting their spec right) or compromising the functionality. And on a bass, how often do you need to change strings? Look up Nova Guitar Systems (there's a similar topic somewhere else on the site) on Facebook and pm @Andre_Passini (the owner) on this forum. They are great quality and will be a lot cheaper than some of the above you mention. More about my view of the double-ball issue tomorrow And yes - as @3below says, the Steinberger tuners you show are great, but designed for guitars, not basses 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: I'll put some more meat on the bones in the morning, but I think that the double-ball approach is an unnecessary complication for the short-scale multi-scale you have in mind. Cheaper to buy 4 allen keys and keep one in every place you can think of than being stuck with always having to buy some very custom strings (and getting their spec right) or compromising the functionality. And on a bass, how often do you need to change strings? ^This, very sound advice imo. Double-ball strings will totally limit what you can do. You could even build an allen key holder/compartment into the bass for the very purpose I will now confess to having kept a set of strings on a bass (that has been gigged extensively in my younger years) for about 40 years. If you are wondering, Rotosound TruBass on an EKO acoustic bass, and yes they were fine. I have TI flats running at 11 years on a regularly used bass. Edited June 5, 2022 by 3below 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezbass Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) A clip on the rear of the instrument to house said Allen key is also an option. I’m pretty sure some company did this for their Floyd Rose equipped guitars on the rear of their headstocks (obviously not an option here). Edited June 5, 2022 by ezbass 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Smanth said: . I saw the patent expiry but I don't understand enough about patent law, can they not just tweak it a bit to be more in line with what they actually do (as you say the original is very vague) and then renew it or get a new patent? Having said that a slew of 3rd party makers may be good, tho the reviews I've seen of other Steinberger copy tuners (you know who you are) do not make me think they are worth investigating. I do understand patent law as it was the subject of my Law degree dissertation. I got extra credit for taking on a subject I hadn’t studied formally you can’t just tweak it a bit and get a new patent. You have to demonstrate a new and inventive step that makes your design unique and non obvious. It not worth a company’s time and money if it cannot be patented (slightly over-simplified) though the US case of Diamond suggests things can be a bit more lax there alternatively a second and unrelated use for something already invented … such as viagra as a sexual stimulant when it was originally a heart drug Edited June 5, 2022 by Geek99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, ezbass said: A clip on the rear of the instrument to house said Allen key is also an option. I’m pretty sure some company did this for their Floyd Rose equipped guitars on the rear of their headstocks (obviously not an option here). Yes you can buy such clips quite cheaply with a thumb screw to hold them in place https://www.northwestguitars.co.uk/amp/headstock-mounted-allen-key-wrench-holder-for-floyd-rose-tremolo-guitar/ Edited June 5, 2022 by Geek99 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 48 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: I'll put some more meat on the bones in the morning, but I think that the double-ball approach is an unnecessary complication for the short-scale multi-scale you have in mind. Indeed, my intention at present is single ball with the ball at the head. 48 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said: Cheaper to buy 4 allen keys and keep one in every place you can think of than being stuck with always having to buy some very custom strings (and getting their spec right) or compromising the functionality. And on a bass, how often do you need to change strings? Look up Nova Guitar Systems (there's a similar topic somewhere else on the site) on Facebook and pm @Andre_Passini (the owner) on this forum. They are great quality and will be a lot cheaper than some of the above you mention. A very informed point of view! My current direction (whilst not double ball) would require custom strings to fit the Steinberger Gearless (Assuming they could even cope with the tension); A wee hole at the top of the neck, parallel to the trussrod would accommodate an Allen key, a spare in my gig bag would likely obviate the risk of not having one to hand on the odd occasion that I needed it. Being able to utilise ball end in the tuners would open up more options like technology for music or nova. Thank you @Andyjr1515 🥰 S'manth x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andre_Passini Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said: I'll put some more meat on the bones in the morning, but I think that the double-ball approach is an unnecessary complication for the short-scale multi-scale you have in mind. Cheaper to buy 4 allen keys and keep one in every place you can think of than being stuck with always having to buy some very custom strings (and getting their spec right) or compromising the functionality. And on a bass, how often do you need to change strings? Look up Nova Guitar Systems (there's a similar topic somewhere else on the site) on Facebook and pm @Andre_Passini (the owner) on this forum. They are great quality and will be a lot cheaper than some of the above you mention. More about my view of the double-ball issue tomorrow And yes - as @3below says, the Steinberger tuners you show are great, but designed for guitars, not basses Thank you again @Andyjr1515! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 5, 2022 Author Share Posted June 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, Geek99 said: Yes you can buy such clips quite cheaply with a thumb screw to hold them in place https://www.northwestguitars.co.uk/amp/headstock-mounted-allen-key-wrench-holder-for-floyd-rose-tremolo-guitar/ Awesome! S'manth x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 20 minutes ago, Smanth said: Awesome! S'manth x You’re welcome - one problem solved at least 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Andyjr1515 said: I'll put some more meat on the bones in the morning, but I think that the double-ball approach is an unnecessary complication for the short-scale multi-scale you have in mind. Cheaper to buy 4 allen keys and keep one in every place you can think of than being stuck with always having to buy some very custom strings (and getting their spec right) or compromising the functionality. And on a bass, how often do you need to change strings? Look up Nova Guitar Systems (there's a similar topic somewhere else on the site) on Facebook and pm @Andre_Passini (the owner) Yes @Smanthyou should read his thread, he might be able to assist you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabba_the_gut Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 Personally, I like double ball end strings. I’ve always found the tuning to be very stable and not requiring any tools to change strings (including snips to cut the excess off normal string) is great. Speed to change strings is also really good especially on the Steinberger type bridges though this isn’t something done that often. The downside to me is choice. That is limited in terms of the different types, makes but also scale length. There’s also lots of pros and cons regarding the bridges based on price, adjustment, how the strings are threaded through, if tools are needed, if they work for multi scale, ease of installation, ease of adjustment etc. I like the ABM style single tuners but they are expensive - pros and cons again!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geek99 Posted June 5, 2022 Share Posted June 5, 2022 I would like to say that the fact that we have ladies on here discussing technical stuff is a good thing (tm). No intention to be patronising @Smanth, I’m the father of two girls and I’ve never shied from showing them how to do stuff so they can do it for themselves there’s more to bass than just groove and how to play “rhythm stick”; though it’s a fine starting point. Here endeth the lesson 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 OK - I have a bit more time to explain where I'm coming from in terms of the double ball ends. Leastways, that's what I was going to do. Until I thought about it I'm sure most folks are ahead of me on this, but have a rest while the old fella catches up If you really want to use double ball ends** : - It's only the saddles that need to be multi-scale. - You could use standard headless tuners in or on a standard block - Fix that at the very back and square to the string runs - Take the saddles out - Set up individual floating saddles or a custom saddle block (3D printed with fret inserts...think Hofner Violin Bass "Extreme") incorporating the multi-scale Then the string runs are equal length and double ball ends can be used with same length strings (bear in mind, they will still probably be customs because of their length). **When I did @Jus Lukin's headless wonder, I timed how long it took me to fully string, including cutting to length, a new set of strings on the Nova system and bring them all up to pitch... ...2 minutes. Just sayin' 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Elegant solution 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted June 6, 2022 Share Posted June 6, 2022 Allen-key-less string retainers on my bass, not headless but kinda … anyway - I’m not sure how useful that is to the thread but it will suscribe me to updates so that’s good! 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.