3below Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) Looks promising, my only concern would be the brass inserts. Warwick corvettes (German at least) use similar to hold the j bass pickups in. I have had them pull out/work loose. My 2p worth, I would use some rod e.g. 8mm, 10 mm that has a suitable size hole and thread. Make them the full thickness of the headstock and ca or epoxy them in. They will withstand the turning forces that the string will create. Edited June 7, 2022 by 3below 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 7 hours ago, 3below said: Looks promising, my only concern would be the brass inserts. Warwick corvettes (German at least) use similar to hold the j bass pickups in. I have had them pull out/work loose. My 2p worth, I would use some rod e.g. 8mm, 10 mm that has a suitable size hole and thread. Make them the full thickness of the headstock and ca or epoxy them in. They will withstand the turning forces that the string will create. Good to know. At present I'm mucking with stuff I have to hand already, can get cheaply/quickly of Amazon or can 3D print to see if the concepts work. S'manth x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) The angle brackets (and other bits) arrived and so an initial assembly. Key takeaways at this point ... It's as ugly as sin! but it's cheap as chips. The tuning heads rotate easily, but the head of the bolt they pull on does as well. In the interim a spot of superglue would sort it. The string pull brackets turn and twist along the string axis. The string pull brackets are not square along an axis that a fret would take, due to the ball-end being fixed off-axis to the tuning thread. I'm pretty certain 3D printing a supportive enclosure or total replacement for the string holder would address these. I might try printing a unit to replace the ball-end mounting bracket, I'm just not sure that 3D printed parts will be strong or stable enough to hold tuning under load ... I've read Nylon is one of the stronger materials nd I have some so may give it a go. Not sure what will happen under load (The strings are just being held by hand in the photo). I need to figure out how to cobble something together at the head end. But ... I've got a pickup I can use, I bought some fret wire so can print up a saddle along the lines that @Andyjr1515 suggested and create a zero fret as well ... just need to figure out how to "shape" the wood (Literally a PAR 2x4) in the region of the end of the "fret board"/pup/saddle (suggestions/advice very welcome) and I think (if the system can cope with the tensions) I could get something that will make some noise. Fortuitously, with the mounts spread across the whole board, the string spacing is about 18mm. I bought a really cheap (£5) set of strings (5 bass) so am not really expecting much, but I'm learning loads! What fun it would be to play a 2x4 5 string fretless bass! S'manth x Edited June 7, 2022 by Smanth 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 7, 2022 Author Share Posted June 7, 2022 Almost forgot, I got a set of pulleys, but they are way to small (about the same diameter as a post on a set of tuning heads). The G2 string might just bend enough but the diameter of a loop I could put in the B0 before feeling it might start to distort was more like 60mm ... more thought required. S'manth x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 Careful with the 2x4 ideas, that will lead you down the rabbit hole of cigar box guitars, diddley bows, 2 string basses, or one of my favourites Longbow bass etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Guitarist Posted June 7, 2022 Share Posted June 7, 2022 (edited) This is a really interesting thread and I have been following as I have been wondering about a build with some similar aspects. I really like the idea of a smaller bass, shortening it by removing much of the headstock, putting a roller wheel at the bottom of the bass and taking the string around the back. But I've been struggling to think how the tuner might work. The thought that has just occurred to me is that I don't need to make the end of the string move. I just need to fix it and then somehow apply tension. Which leads me to this bad diagram This intuitively feels like it would be quite simple to make and not have too many moving parts. By slackening the tuning knob the string would be released from tension and the end slide off the pin or other fixing, allowing strings to be changed without tools. I think the biggest question in my mind is how much movement in the tensioner would be needed to bring the string to pitch so long as there is enough adjustment for that it could perhaps work. Another possibility might be to make the pulley move in and out, but that makes the instrument longer and would need a more robust pulley frame to keep things rigid under tension. Edited June 7, 2022 by Random Guitarist typo correction 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) 6 hours ago, Random Guitarist said: This is a really interesting thread and I have been following as I have been wondering about a build with some similar aspects. I really like the idea of a smaller bass, shortening it by removing much of the headstock, putting a roller wheel at the bottom of the bass and taking the string around the back. But I've been struggling to think how the tuner might work. The thought that has just occurred to me is that I don't need to make the end of the string move. I just need to fix it and then somehow apply tension. Which leads me to this bad diagram This intuitively feels like it would be quite simple to make and not have too many moving parts. By slackening the tuning knob the string would be released from tension and the end slide off the pin or other fixing, allowing strings to be changed without tools. I think the biggest question in my mind is how much movement in the tensioner would be needed to bring the string to pitch so long as there is enough adjustment for that it could perhaps work. Another possibility might be to make the pulley move in and out, but that makes the instrument longer and would need a more robust pulley frame to keep things rigid under tension. Very interesting! I'm not sure how one would approach the second idea, but the first one looks deeply cool! With a double ball end string one could use simple off the shelf end mounts. I'm not totally sure on the maths front but intuitively (based on the principles we apply when setting up double anchor systems for rock climbing) it looks like a pulley leverage mechanical advantage would apply. I'd guess that the movement made by the tuning screw would be halved as would the load it experiences. Brilliant! S' manth x Edited June 8, 2022 by Smanth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 An electric bass ... apropos that a potentially useful component comes from the world of electrics ... S'manth x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Guitarist Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 I'd be pretty concerned that the plastic bit around the blocks might separate under tension. Also, that plastic is quite pliable you might get an interesting/unwanted pitch change as you pluck. Sorry that sounds really negative, it might work! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimothey Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 (edited) I suppose you could go down the metal terminal block route Edited June 8, 2022 by Jimothey 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 12 minutes ago, Jimothey said: I suppose you could go down the metal terminal block route by the time you're getting that and a screwdriver... just get something like this for £16 https://www.andertons.co.uk/steinberger-xt-2-bass-4-string-headpiece-adaptor-black-stadb04?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=surfaces&gclid=CjwKCAjwkYGVBhArEiwA4sZLuOG2VXZczWyo9QTbNlkmFsNmGYWLCbH4FqrA7Xm--ybpakDoMQCOvhoCCbIQAvD_BwE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 ^ available in 5 string version as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycloud Posted June 8, 2022 Share Posted June 8, 2022 21 hours ago, Random Guitarist said: But I've been struggling to think how the tuner might work. Look at how the Kubicki bridge works. Best explanation is on a how to string a Kubicki instructional off YT. On my phone ATM so can't link it but it should be easy enough to find. I think there's a maintenance manual online too. I'll look later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 5 hours ago, Random Guitarist said: I'd be pretty concerned that the plastic bit around the blocks might separate under tension. Also, that plastic is quite pliable you might get an interesting/unwanted pitch change as you pluck. Sorry that sounds really negative, it might work! Not negative at all ... valuable observations. Nice table, I've been working one up myself based on the strings I got ... but the empirical measurements I'm getting are probably quite inaccurate. Anyway ... The "head" bracket does distort under load (and I don't think I was anywhere near tunings). Unloaded Loaded I meticulously disassembled one(OK ... hacked it apart) and was delighted to discover that the grub screws are M4. A quick dive into my box of maker parts later and ... I need to tweak my tuning knobs to capture the nut but let the bolt head be free. I feel this will produce a better solution. Remains to be seen if the hex grub screw can retain the string (with the bolt I can easily drill a small countersink in the side so that it is not reliant simply on friction) I'm picturing a jury rigged setup with a known mass (bunch of tinned goods) being used to stress test the coupling. The brass fittings have a non uniform cross section, so I can print an enclosure to prevent them turning when the tuning knob is rotated. And I expect I can figure out a comparable mounting system for the head end mount; possibly even drilling all the way through one of the two grub holes to allow a through screw into the neck. I do have a handheld Dremel whcih is very handy, but drilling nicely aligned holes (And making nice cuts out of perspex which I tried in project Trampa) is a stretch target. I've had an 'additive' maker machine (3D printer) for some time and it is brilliant for this and that. I was giving some thought to printing a small drill press for the Dremel, but GAS hit me and so please welcome a wee 'subtractive' maker machine. Xena (She screams and cuts) I'm interested to see what I can achieve with her. S'manth x 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 8, 2022 Author Share Posted June 8, 2022 29 minutes ago, crazycloud said: Look at how the Kubicki bridge works. Best explanation is on a how to string a Kubicki instructional off YT. On my phone ATM so can't link it but it should be easy enough to find. I think there's a maintenance manual online too. I'll look later. Good shout. I had a look at them not long ago (Even found the patent) , they look really good, but it appears they do not sell the tuner/bridge assemblies. S'manth x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazycloud Posted June 9, 2022 Share Posted June 9, 2022 5 hours ago, Smanth said: but it appears they do not sell the tuner/bridge assemblies. No, they don't. I was suggested as an instructional if you wanted to make your own. They didn't do a 5 anyway. For a headless bass bridge try Nova in Brazil. Andre is on TB @Passini. Several people there have used them and the quality is VG. I'll be using them for my upcoming headless 6s. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 On 09/06/2022 at 04:40, crazycloud said: No, they don't. I was suggested as an instructional if you wanted to make your own. They didn't do a 5 anyway. For a headless bass bridge try Nova in Brazil. Andre is on TB @Passini. Several people there have used them and the quality is VG. I'll be using them for my upcoming headless 6s. Thanks ... a few folks have suggested the tuners by @Andre_Passini, they sound really well made and look totally gorgeous! S'manth x 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 OMG I stumbled across a makerspace not 15 minutes drive from where I live. Various shop woodwork machines (saws/planers/sanders), lathe, laser cutter and a kick donkey 3D printer and a couple of industrial size CNC machines being nursed into life. Seem a really nice bunch of folks and and their monthly fee is within my budget .... hmmmm S'manth 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
songofthewind Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 That sounds so fab! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Random Guitarist Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 3 hours ago, Smanth said: OMG I stumbled across a makerspace not 15 minutes drive from where I live. Various shop woodwork machines (saws/planers/sanders), lathe, laser cutter and a kick donkey 3D printer and a couple of industrial size CNC machines being nursed into life. Seem a really nice bunch of folks and and their monthly fee is within my budget .... hmmmm S'manth Sounds really useful, can you share any details on name/location? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 2 hours ago, Random Guitarist said: Sounds really useful, can you share any details on name/location? https://buildbrighton.com/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 10, 2022 Author Share Posted June 10, 2022 EBB5 Head String Anchor Rev 2 lol The brass connector thing is held in place partly by the face being too small for it to pass through and also by the protrusion of the string holding grub screws into their channels. We shall see if this bears up any better under the load. S'manth x 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3below Posted June 10, 2022 Share Posted June 10, 2022 7 hours ago, Smanth said: EBB5 Head String Anchor Rev 2 lol The brass connector thing is held in place partly by the face being too small for it to pass through and also by the protrusion of the string holding grub screws into their channels. We shall see if this bears up any better under the load. S'manth x You have been very busy looks very good. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 I've even incorporated an Allen key holder as suggested by a couple of folks 😃 And now to marking up some stuff ... with a high detail reference on the right for guidance. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamIAm Posted June 11, 2022 Author Share Posted June 11, 2022 Oh dear, ever had that D'oh feeling!? I was doing a final scale length measurement and realised I've reversed the strings! I'm going to struggle to play a fretless, let alone if it was a leftie! S'manth 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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