zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) Winding the string onto the peg is a real pain. Some strings you need to trim the length, others don't need it, and you can't always tell which do or don't until you've tried it sometimes. The bend you put in the end comes in handy as it helps with getting the string through the hole in the peg. It is easier to work from the nut end up, i.e. go string 6, 5, 4 then 1, 2, 3. I got 6,5,4 right, but forgot for the top 3, which made life unnecessarily difficult... Good practice is to put the first wind of the string 'past' the hole in the peg, then wind it so it comes back over the hole. If you're lucky (fat chance) it will trap the short tail of the string and bed it nicely under the turns... if only... Strings 5 and 6 are hard going due to being metal wound. The other string have a different issue: they do not come supplied with a loop. You have to create one. This is done by bending the end of the string then twisting the tail around the string. You don't need to put a knot in it. In theory... when you tighten the string it will all snug up tightly. At this point I need to make a confession - mea culpa... String #4 is the F string. It's not heavy enough to warrant being metal wound, but plain just isn't really up to it. You can get high twist gut strings made by twisting several thinner strands together. Another option, used here, is to have a single wire 'thread' which winds around the string in a spiral. I wanted the silver wire one, but they were out of stock, so this is copper. There's only £3 difference in cost. The 'mea culpa' is my pile of string envelopes was mis-sorted and I initially put string #3 in as #4... I realised when I got the wire wound out of the packet to start on #3... You can see in the photo that #4 has the wrong string on it... It all got sorted a few minutes later, just annoying. Edited July 22, 2022 by zbd1960 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 Eventually, I got all 6 strings changed. It's always useful to keep old strings if they're not broken as you never know when you may need one - gut strings are fickle. I label the envelopes with the string name and the date I changed them. Here you can see the tailpiece with all 6 strings - in the correct order - snugged up. The peg box could be better, but it's OK. And added to my collection of 'may be useful...' 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 Annoying - lost a post... I've tuned the viol to A415, which is 'baroque' pitch. Being gut, it will be several days before they've stretched and settled. Changes in humidity affect tuning as well. Some jobs left to do. The fingerboard needs a clean. And I need to tune the frets. The frets are double loops of fret gut which are tied on to the neck. Anyway, that completes the re-stringing of the tenor viol. Next job is to order some replacement strings for the bass viol and the small matter of getting one of the bows re-haired.... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 To whet your appetite for the bass viol... two strings have snapped and something has got at the bow - possibly some form of mite... tbh I suspect a full re-string needed... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dad3353 Posted July 22, 2022 Share Posted July 22, 2022 Viola da Gamba Vst ... Just sayin'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 (edited) I took the bow into the luthier I use for re-hairing my bows in Shrewsbury this afternoon. He confirmed it's carpet dust mites eating the bow hair. So, need to vacuum the case out and get some varmint repelling papers... Bow will be ready to pick up on Wednesday. EDIT. Just to add - it only seems to be an issue with the bass viol case - don't get it with tenor viol or cello. Very odd. Luthier said it's a common problem. Edited July 22, 2022 by zbd1960 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 22, 2022 Author Share Posted July 22, 2022 btw... it cost £120 to re-string the tenor viol. The bass will cost over £200... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_dinger Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 What a palaver! It seems to me that you are very much having to make things happen yourself, with those instruments - your own loops, your own frets, your own string care regime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassTractor Posted July 27, 2022 Share Posted July 27, 2022 On 22/07/2022 at 18:46, Dad3353 said: Viola da Gamba Vst ... Just sayin'. But how are you gonna vacuum clean a VST for mite, eh? Eh? BTW, I "played" the viola da gamba for two or three years during my youth, and lurved the instrument. Great thread, zbd! 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 27, 2022 Author Share Posted July 27, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, bass_dinger said: What a palaver! It seems to me that you are very much having to make things happen yourself, with those instruments - your own loops, your own frets, your own string care regime. I suppose ultimately they're fairly 'niche' so numbers are not high, so that mitigates against manufacturers automating stuff etc. as there isn't the volumes to make it viable. The strings are common to various instruments, such as lute (a six course Renaissance lute in G has the same tuning as the tenor viol). Compared with say my cello, they are high maintenance. The top string will only last a 2 or 3 months at most as the gut starts to fray after a while and then snaps. Frets either stretch and won't hold their place, or they wear, in either case they need replacing. Viols, unlike the members of the violin family, sound much more consistent across the sizes (e.g. treble, tenor, bass vs violin, viola, cello). Part of it is probably that the tenor is the correct size for its pitch - the viola should be the size of the tenor viol, but because it's played 'da braccio' it can't be, so it's really too small for its pitch. This piece is for treble, tenor, and 2 bass viols. It's a choral piece, which I've sung a few times. https://youtu.be/-_E877TUqfU Edited July 27, 2022 by zbd1960 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 29, 2022 Author Share Posted July 29, 2022 (edited) Okay, different topic today. I've been reading about the various issues people have playing in bands - much entertainment and drama it seems! By and large the choirs and orchestras I've played in are an entirely different beast to the bands discussed here. You pay a subscription to be a member (around £140 pa these days). They have a music director to lead/conduct. The nearest equivalent at the moment is probably the saxophone ensemble I play in. We're a disparate group that came together via an online community. We're currently an octet if everyone turns up playing SSAATTBB. We're widely scattered and meet near Manchester as it's equally inconvenient for most of us! That leads to the first 'problem'. Given the distances involved for all but one person, we meet monthly for a 3 hour rehearsal. Sax, for everyone except me, is their first instrument and they've started as 'late adult learners'. Being an ensemble playing orchestrated arrangements means you have to read staff notation and for most this was new as well as playing. It was me that started the group, originally as a trio meeting at my house. The loss of high street music shops makes it very difficult to find suitable music to play especially as I ideally need to have a look through to see if it can be managed by the group. Some of the players are very competent. The issue with most is like many they they play with backing tracks at home and have little or no experience of playing with others in a group. As the person with the most experience of playing/performing in large ensembles, some experience/training in conducting, and also with the most music 'knowledge', I've ended up being the conductor of the group and I run the rehearsals and sort out the music. People do sometimes buy/obtain music for the group. We've been meeting for several years now. Compared to when we started, the group has made a lot of progress. Things like sight-reading and timing have improved a lot. The biggest issue is timing/rhythm and that's where playing in a group is a big difference - you need to be listening to the other parts as well. The thing that prevents more progress is the irregular nature of the monthly meetings - it's not a fixed date as we try to pick dates when the most people can attend. We have discussed meeting more regularly, but logistics are against us. The distance between me and the most northerly member of the group is nearly 100 miles, and east-west we're scattered over about 80 miles. The issue I have is that I started playing trios as I wanted to play in a sax trio/quartet. For reference I'm grade 6 on sax. One player is grade 8, the rest are 3 - 5. I've ended up being the leader, conductor, music arranger (I've edited various pieces of music for us to play) for the group. Large parts of most meetings I'm standing there with a score and a baton conducting and working to help people sort out issues. I usually bring both a Bb and Eb sax so that I can help out people with their parts. I actually don't get to do much playing most times. Sometimes, if I am playing, I'm playing my part from the score so I can watch what else is going on. I kind of feel stuck between a rock and a hard place. I really want to play. I accept that I'm the one with the experience to help rehearse the group. But it places all the onus on me. It was interesting a few meetings ago when one of the soprano players needed a break and said they'd conduct whilst I played their part on tenor. At the end of that they said they hadn't realised how difficult it was to try to beat time, read the score, and listen to what everyone is doing... Sometimes the G8 player will conduct, although he's stopped doing it except when I'm away. He freely admits he lacks the experience of working and rehearsing groups and he's told me he finds it very difficult. If I opt to just play, the group will struggle and it's not a realistic option really. I am likely to be moving later this year, that may adjust things dramatically. The move will put me much nearer other players and I may just have to move on and accept that I've helped develop the group and that it's tie to move on. Edited July 29, 2022 by zbd1960 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted July 31, 2022 Author Share Posted July 31, 2022 The bass viol bow came back from the luthier - £40 for a re-hair. I've put some anti-moth papers in the case - apparently these deal with the mites as well. So hopefully that doesn't recur. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 Last week was a busy week at music summer school. I mostly played cello and bari sax, but the Krell had an outing. I've been to many music summer schools of different types over the last 25 years or so. This year's one is one where you sign-up for an assortment of activities rather than say just orchestra or wind band. There are multiple options you can choose for each of the six sessions each day, although some like chamber orchestra are double sessions which means you do 5 options. There are quite a few options to choose from ranging from solo and sight singing, to folk music, trad and modern jazz, chamber music etc. My options were: chamber music, string orchestra, wind ensemble, chamber orchestra, and big band. I did an optional early morning session playing bass rehearsing the ceilidh band (which played for one of the evenings later in the week). You get challenged by a week like that, partly because it's immersive and partly the tutors are pushing you and you're doing things you might not otherwise consider (e.g. on cello I played movements from the Mendelssohn octet and Haydn's Lark quartet). They are quite sociable as well as there's usually a bar for the evening. Unfortunately for me this year, I was not resident on site so a pinto or two was not an option. There are lots of these kinds of things covering every genre and type of music. If like me you live on your own, they are a good option. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EJWW Posted August 22, 2022 Share Posted August 22, 2022 Thanks for posting this, I've enjoyed reading about your musical journey. I would love to be able to immerse myself in deepening my musical knowledge and experience the way you have but personal commitments prevent me from doing so at the moment. Dare I ask... what basses you own? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted August 22, 2022 Author Share Posted August 22, 2022 (edited) 20 hours ago, EJWW said: Thanks for posting this, I've enjoyed reading about your musical journey. I would love to be able to immerse myself in deepening my musical knowledge and experience the way you have but personal commitments prevent me from doing so at the moment. Dare I ask... what basses you own? Somehow I've gone from zero to 5 quite quickly: Fender jazz; Sire Marcus Miller 5 string, Spector 6 string, ACG Krell 32/4, Manton Custom Titan 32/6... Edited August 23, 2022 by zbd1960 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted August 23, 2022 Author Share Posted August 23, 2022 (edited) A feature of most basses it seems when you buy them is that they come with a little packet of bits and pieces to help make adjustments, like the Allen keys necessary to adjust bridge saddles etc. Cellos and saxes do not have these luxuries... and last week at summer school that proved to be an issue. Saxophones are real Heath-Robinson beasts, although they have evolved and improved since their invention in the C19th by Adolphe Sax, they are still mechanically complex and have inherent tuning issues arising from the laws of physics. The woodwind instrument equivalent of 'action' is 'regulation'. Saxes have an assortment of mechanical contrivances to control the opening and closing of cup keys. Give a sax a stern look and it can go out of regulation. There are needle springs , levers, rods in the mix. Some of the springs hold things open, others hold things closed. There is an art to balancing the strength of the springs. If you get air leaks caused by pads on cup keys not seating properly, strange things can happen. To give you an idea of just ONE thing these have to do: to play in the second octave, you have to depress the octave key. This opens a valve on the body and it's engaged by rolling the tip of your left thumb when you reach D on the 4th line of the treble clef. However, when you get up to A, the body octave valve is closed and a second one on the neck is opened. If you come down from A, then the opposite happens... this happens automatically through a complex arrangement of levers. Anyway, I was in wind ensemble on Wednesday after lunch and suddenly there was either no sound coming out of the baritone or weird noises. I played down GFED in lower octave and sound generally went up, sometimes by a 12th or more. Going up, some notes went down... There was a great deal of whistling and parping... It was obviously leaking all over the shop. One obvious things was the little 'see-saw' that controls the octave mechanism wasn't working, but there were other issues as well. The needle springs all seemed to be hooked on and seated. The big band tutor was sitting in on clarinet and she came over and agreed something was loose... The conductor of the group is an oboist and she spotted it - one of the screws that goes into one of the control rods was proud by about 3mm, it had obviously been working its way out and the control rod was loose meaning various key cups were not seating properly... that rod had three major key cups attached to it. The solution was a jeweller's screwdriver, which I didn't have (I used to carry bits around but had got out of the habit). Fortunately, the oboist in the group had some stuff and we tightened it (oboists and bassonist always have a comprehensive kit of tools and assorted bit and pieces). Once tightened, all was fine. Just as well as the big band recital was later that evening... Lesson learnt. I am putting together the tools that need to be in music case. I get issues with the cello's end-pin getting stuck as well. So, a set of various types of small pliers, an assortment of small screwdrivers, some tweezers have been acquired. I just need to add a crochet hook (used to hook needle springs back on), some felt, and some blu-tac... Edited August 23, 2022 by zbd1960 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 (edited) I posted in the thread about the questionable singer... and said I'd post more about the gig I had a few years ago. I used to play in an amateur orchestra in the Midlands. A well-known nightclub brand wanted to do an orchestral concert version of 90s/00s dance music. Now this is well outside of the comfort zone of your typical amateur orchestra and it required a lot of preparation, with months of rehearsals. First, the conductor had to engage an orchestrator to arrange the music for our forces, which were going to be augmented to make us a 60 piece orchestra (we're about 40 usually), which meant paid deps. In addition we needed a 5 piece horn section, a band (synths, guitars, bass, drum kit), gospel choir... So that the orchestra could rehearse, the orchestrator created a playable file with click track for rehearsals. The music was arranged as two continuous 1 hour sets. We spent months rehearsing. The last three rehearsals were with the extra players and the gospel choir. The final rehearsal was with the 4 vocal soloists. These are I believe 'well-known' performers of this music. Two were decent, two seemed to be more ego than ability. The gig was a sell out in a major concert hall (2,200). In addition to the musicians, there was a whole light and effects show, aerialists, dancers... The conductor had issues with one of the singers in the rehearsal. The singer didn't seem to understand that when you have about 80 musicians playing from a score, there is no way of looping back because you missed your entry. Trouble is he got lost in the performance as well and the conductor ended up making huge extravagant gestures and singing his part to cue the twit. The other singers were at least in the right place, although tuning was definitely a novelty for some of them. I have sung in choirs and performed in hundreds of concerts over the years. If we sang that badly we'd be embarrassed and we'd never hear the end of it. Edited August 29, 2022 by zbd1960 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted September 1, 2022 Author Share Posted September 1, 2022 OK a bass playing post for a change! I've missed the last couple of jam session with the local rock school due to it conflicting with my holidays. The adult sessions are fortnightly, so it's been 6 weeks since I was there. One of the tutors there is my bass teacher. He's 25 and a music grad - he plays bass, guitar, keys, and drums. He also lives near the southern end of the county so he's nearly 50 miles away. The franchise is opening a new one somewhere much nearer to him so he's dropping my local one. It's understandable as a 50 miles rural drive is going to be around 90 minutes and not cheap with fuel costs. So last night was the last session there with him. It also means I've lost my bass teacher. For our 121 sessions, he see me either before or after the local sessions. Of the four bass teachers I've had, he's the only one I've made any progress with. The first one I never met as he kept cancelling. The second one I did meet a few times, but he quickly realised I was more qualified than he was..... The third one was strange - he'd run three students in separate rooms at the same time... Trouble was, I only found this local teacher as Covid hit, so we've had protracted periods of not being able to meet. Anyway, I'm now back to having no teacher. I can't imagine the local bass teacher scene has changed much since I last looked. All rather frustrating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted September 3, 2022 Author Share Posted September 3, 2022 Today was a camera day - I was covering a touch rugby competition end of season finals day in Chester. Now have a mountain of photos to process 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted September 10, 2022 Author Share Posted September 10, 2022 Orchestra rehearsals in Chester resumed last night. Looked at suite #1 fro Bizet's Carmen and Haydn Symphony #82. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted September 18, 2022 Author Share Posted September 18, 2022 Yesterday I went to an ad-hoc string orchestra day on the Wirral. Usually there are three of these days a year (roughly September, January, and May). This was the first since January 2020 due to the joys of Covid. About 60 of us (8 o cello) for the day which was mostly focused on the Vaughan Williams Fantasia on a theme by Thomas Tallis. It's written for double string orchestra plus a string quartet. In reality it splits into many lines - can be 27 or more independent lines. I was in 'orchestra 2' and at times it split into three separate staves with two parts per stave i.e. 6 parts and that's just cellos in second orchestra... There were only 2 celli assigned to the second orchestra. It's a work I like and I was pleased to have the chance to play it as I hadn't done so up until yesterday. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted October 12, 2022 Author Share Posted October 12, 2022 OK - it's been a weird week or two... I've lost two of my music teachers in the last few weeks. I'm rather disappointed to have lost my singing teacher. He moved a few months ago making it over 100 mile round trip. It's a particularly irritating rural A road journey, half of which you have zero chance of getting past anything slow. For various reasons, but travel logistics is a major one, I've had to call an end to them. It will not be easy to find a replacement. Given that, there's no point until I've moved house. I lost my bass tutor as he opted to teach at a Rock School set-up that was only a few miles form him, rather than the 50 to here. I entirely understand that. I persisted with the alternate week local 'jam' sessions. But, there's now no dedicated bass teacher, and a guitarist for a tutor that a) can't read notation, b) doesn't understand bass, is just a waste of my time and money. I haven't had a sax teacher (read carefully) since Covid, so I just have my cello lessons now. Started work on the Brahms E minor cello sonata this week. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_dinger Posted October 12, 2022 Share Posted October 12, 2022 2 hours ago, zbd1960 said: So... if I had the ability, and a cello (I have neither), I could follow the music, and play along with this track. In fact, if I have just the ability to read music properly, in the bass clef, I could play that music with a bass guitar. Is there anything simpler for beginners like me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted October 13, 2022 Author Share Posted October 13, 2022 7 hours ago, bass_dinger said: So... if I had the ability, and a cello (I have neither), I could follow the music, and play along with this track. In fact, if I have just the ability to read music properly, in the bass clef, I could play that music with a bass guitar. Is there anything simpler for beginners like me? Yes you could play it on a bass. It does spend some time in the tenor clef as well as bass clef. Tenor clef isn't that difficult to read - the fourth line up from the bottom is 'middle C' rather than the F you expect on a bass clef. You can buy books of music for cello with CDs for play along from absolute beginner level upwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zbd1960 Posted January 10, 2023 Author Share Posted January 10, 2023 I haven't posted for a while... being a full-time student I had major projects to get in for the end of the semester and that included my dissertation... Music has been low key as Monday orchestra finished for Christmas at the beginning of December and Chester was the same. It all kicked off last Saturday though as the Chester one hosted a 'play day'. This is where people sign-up for a day of playing something. In this case it was three of Haydn's early symphonies: 6, 7, and 8 known as Morning, Noon, and Night. Stylistically, these are more akin to concerti grossi but in the classical style. The concerto grosso was a late baroque form where you had a group of soloists (the 'concertante' group) and the accompanying orchestra (the 'ripieno'). Handel wrote two well-known sets, and those by Corelli are well-known as well. Haydn was writing these in 1761, so he's definitely writing in the style of the early classical era and not baroque, but the format of the symphonies is more like a concerto grosso as there are designated soloists in most movements. Some of the solos are highly virtuosic. I had one of the less virtuosic ones in #8 which was in the slow movement. I was solo together with a violin and a bassoon. There were two solos for double bass in there as well, which is extremely unusual for this time. Haydn is a lot of fun. He spent two extensive periods in London in the 1790s and he seems to have been very popular. He seems to have been one of history's "nice guys". Below is a recording of #8 - the last movement (about 18 minutes in) is a depiction of a storm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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