So what’s the perfect cab combination?

[Dan Dare]

19 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Truly flat response from a bass rig would be as appealing as truly flat beer. 

 

Exactly. Try running your bass through your hi-fi. It sounds clean, but characterless and sterile. It would also be enormously expensive to amplify a bass to realistic levels whilst achieving a truly flat response. 

[Dan Dare]

22 hours ago, BigRedX said:

However that means in order to get your proper sound you always need to use your complete rig, and if it's going through the PA then one of the speakers needs to be mic'd up otherwise you are loosing what is to you, an important part of the signal chain.

 

No. It's better to DI in that situation and let the engineer determine what works out front. What matters to us as players is the sound we hear onstage. That sound may not translate well for the hall in the mix.

[Musicman20]

Aguilar DB 4x12 (x2)

[BigRedX]

16 minutes ago, Dan Dare said:

 

No. It's better to DI in that situation and let the engineer determine what works out front. What matters to us as players is the sound we hear onstage. That sound may not translate well for the hall in the mix.

 

IME the EQ settings on the amp are both to get your "sound", but also to compensate for the short comings of a typical bass cab. If you use a different cab you need different EQ settings on your amp to get the same sound (if you even can). Therefore if "your sound" is what you hear from the cab, then your cab is an essential part of the signal chain. If the PA engineer is going to bypass the cab, then they might as well bypass your amp too (and many of them do either by putting the DI box before the amp input or by asking for a pre-EQ DI out of the amp).

 

Then your amp and cab(s) is simply a personal monitor and all that time you have spent choosing the perfect amp and cab(s) combination is potentially wasted on the people who are the most important - your audience; as your sound will be mostly at the mercy of what the PA engineer thinks is right. For bigger stages unless you are anchored in front of your rig, you'll probably be able to hear more bass guitar in the foldback, so the rig has now become for show only...

 

Of course it's nice to own good quality musical equipment, but if you get to the point that I did where my very expensive choice of amp and cabs made zero contribution to what the audience was hearing, and on many stages zero contribution to what I was hearing, then you start to question if that money spent was worthwhile. Especially if it is also large and fairly heavy, taking up valuable space on stage, in the band van and in the rehearsal room.

[thodrik]

After looking at the Trace Elliot historical catalogues thread, I really think that a 1x18 and 2x10 stack with an additional bright box is the way forward. The 18 for the lows, the 10s for the mids and the bright box for the highs. Use a mic on each cabinet, a pre-EQ DI and post EQ DI and send them all to the sound engineer who will obviously be delighted and entirely willing to cooperate with you for 45 minutes until the FoH sound in the small club is exactly to your liking. 

[JPJ]

9 minutes ago, thodrik said:

After looking at the Trace Elliot historical catalogues thread, I really think that a 1x18 and 2x10 stack with an additional bright box is the way forward. The 18 for the lows, the 10s for the mids and the bright box for the highs. Use a mic on each cabinet, a pre-EQ DI and post EQ DI and send them all to the sound engineer who will obviously be delighted and entirely willing to cooperate with you for 45 minutes until the FoH sound in the small club is exactly to your liking. 

I once saw a guy playing bass in a pub band in Hull and he used the full TE stack of 1x18, 4x10, + Brightbox. Fortunately he was a tasty player as he certainly cut through the mix 🤣

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

If the PA engineer is going to bypass the cab, then they might as well bypass your amp too (and many of them do either by putting the DI box before the amp input or by asking for a pre-EQ DI out of the amp).

 

Then your amp and cab(s) is simply a personal monitor and all that time you have spent choosing the perfect amp and cab(s) combination is potentially wasted on the people who are the most important - your audience; as your sound will be mostly at the mercy of what the PA engineer thinks is right

 

That's exactly my point. I like a certain sound from my gear because it gives me confidence and makes me happy, which hopefully means I play better. I spent the time and money choosing my rig because I like the result it gives me. However, I have to recognise that what I like won't necessarily be best in context - type of venue, room acoustics, numbers of people in the audience, how it interacts with other instruments, etc, etc.

 

I'm happy to give an engineer a feed from the DI out on my amp and to trust them to decide how to mix everything for the best overall result. Obviously, I will want him/her to have general regard for what I am trying to achieve (am I aiming for Jamerson, Chris Squire or Geddy, to name three pretty contrasting tonalities?), but how it sounds and works in the out front mix is his/her decision and I trust him/her to do his/her job. That, imho, is the best way to ensure an audience is happy.

 

It would be different were I a solo player, but I'm not.

Edited June 7, 2022 by Dan Dare

[BigRedX]

The things that make me play well are that I can hear enough of myself and the rest of the band to know that I am in time and in tune, and the fact that the songs I am playing are awesome. It would be nice to have my perfect sound(s) on stage, but for bands that are mostly playing supports rather than headlining this is rarely possible in the time available for sound checking, and also some of the sounds I use that are right in the overall band mix are not the best for being able to distinguish what notes I am playing on stage.

 

If I get to the stage where one of my bands is doing a headlining tour playing decent sized venues, then we'll spend a couple of days rehearsing with our sound engineer on a proper sound stage rehearsal space, and then I might start worrying about having a perfect sound on stage. Before that point, it's too much of a distraction.

 

 

[Dan Dare]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

also some of the sounds I use that are right in the overall band mix are not the best for being able to distinguish what notes I am playing on stage.

 

That's why you Di for out front and let the engineer decide what works in the room, which leaves you free to set an onstage sound that suits you.

[thodrik]

3 hours ago, JPJ said:

I once saw a guy playing bass in a pub band in Hull and he used the full TE stack of 1x18, 4x10, + Brightbox. Fortunately he was a tasty player as he certainly cut through the mix 🤣

I'm guessing that he was the entire mix!

[Chienmortbb]

5 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 

Exactly. Try running your bass through your hi-fi. It sounds clean, but characterless and sterile. It would also be enormously expensive to amplify a bass to realistic levels whilst achieving a truly flat response. 

Can you explain you reasoning? I agree that a bass through a HiFi is no good but HiFi speakers and MI speakers are  two different things. AS for the expense.in some ways you are correct. The drivers needed  are not cheap. A good compression driver/horn combination wills be over £100 on its own and most so called FRFR cabinets do not spend anywhere near that on the mids/top end. I have been using @steviedesigned BC112 MK3 for several years and it is ruler flat and loud. If I want colouration I can dial it in on a pedal or the amp's preamp.

[bassbiscuits]

I've been round the houses with various combinations of 10s, 12s and 15s over the years, but I'm really digging 10s at the moment. Good 10s have enough of everything I need - tight low end, punchy mids and enough highs.

 

If we imagine I have a crew to move it, then an Ampeg SVT and 8x10 would be glorious.

[BassmanPaul]

For me the perfect cabinet was the Acme B2 2x10 three way. I liked the first so much I bought a second. The pair stacked on their ends for a vertical 4x10 was the best I have ever used in my sixty odd years of playing. I was so impressed with them that I bought a second pair.

 

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Can you explain you reasoning? I agree that a bass through a HiFi is no good but HiFi speakers and MI speakers are  two different things. AS for the expense.in some ways you are correct. The drivers needed  are not cheap. A good compression driver/horn combination wills be over £100 on its own and most so called FRFR cabinets do not spend anywhere near that on the mids/top end. I have been using @steviedesigned BC112 MK3 for several years and it is ruler flat and loud. If I want colouration I can dial it in on a pedal or the amp's preamp.

 

You’ve pretty much answered your own question. If you want true full range, flat response (FRFR) amplification of bass at realistic performance volume/distance, you’re going to have to spend a LOT of money to achieve it.

 

Please note that I’m not saying the following to show off or drop the names of high end manufacturers.

 

£100 is not a lot to spend on a high quality compression driver. Have a look at products from companies that supply the pro audio market – ATC, Precision Devices, d&b audioteknik, Martin Audio and similar. Then take a look at the price of their mid and bass drivers. They’re what you’re going to need, in a properly designed cabinet, for true FRFR at volume. Then take a look at the cost of suitable amplification from the likes of Lab Gruppen, Powersoft, d&b, Martin, MC2, etc.

 

Pro audio companies don’t spend the money on such products because they like to splash the cash. They do so because that’s what they need to get a proper result.

 

The term FRFR has to be one of the most mis-used in audio. It makes me smile when I see a plastic box with a 10 or 12 and a horn that costs a few hundred quid described as FRFR. It might be that (just) at very low volume, measured a metre away, but crank it and expect it to give FRFR to people sitting 30 or 50 feet away? No chance.

 

Have you measured your “ruler flat” cab? I’m not disrespecting Stevie, who knows his stuff. I am grateful to him, Bill Fitzmaurice and others who share their hard-won knowledge with us and help us to achieve good sound on a budget. However, I doubt that your cab is “ruler flat” and would be surprised if Stevie designed it to be so, given that it’s a bass cab and not a PA speaker.

 

There are limits to what can be achieved with a couple of hundred quid’s worth of Eminence drivers in a DIY box, no matter how cleverly designed it is. That’s just a fact of life.

 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Coming up with a true FRFR cab isn't a problem for me, irrespective of budget. I don't use one because I don't want one.

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

Have you measured your “ruler flat” cab? I’m not disrespecting Stevie, who knows his stuff. I am grateful to him, Bill Fitzmaurice and others who share their hard-won knowledge with us and help us to achieve good sound on a budget. However, I doubt that your cab is “ruler flat” and would be surprised if Stevie designed it to be so, given that it’s a bass cab and not a PA speaker.

Many many years back I went to a practice in a church and plugged, via the PA into a HK D.A.R.T wedge - I started a thread about why a clean sterile PA sound sounded so much better to my ears than all the bass rigs I had had at that point. An interesting conversation followed. I became interested in a cleaner less coloured sound. ACME B2 was pretty good.

There were a few people on here building simple, and cheap-ish to make cabs using some newish driver... I think there were a few people asking the theoretical question - bolt a horn on that and a crossover and what does the high end, not going for the cheapest components, sound like. @stevie can correct me but I think that is the design aim of the cab. I'm fairly sure I could use it as a stand in of a PA speaker in an emergency. 

As @Bill Fitzmaurice points out, his cab (whichever one he's useing currently!) isn't FRFR because it's voiced to sound as he wants it to. I think that's great and in a lot of situations the best solution for a bass cab. However my cab is, or trying to be, FRFR  so what made me buy the kit off Stevie rather than building one of Bill's Jack Lites, or buying something nice? 
Well a lot of my playing currently is at church, straight into the PA with no backline... some "amp and cab tone" is added to my signal using a HX stomp (other pedals are available) and for me, the sound out of my cab sounding in the same ballpark of the sound I'll hear out of the FOH is quite useful. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I use a Jack Lite 12. I have a Jack Lite 15, it's only been used once at an outdoor gig. Indoors I don't need more than the 12. When I designed them I was after a similar tone to my favorite rig when I was touring in the '70s, the JBL 4560A, in a much smaller and lighter package. The 4560A was a monster, but in the days before PA support that's what you needed.

[BigRedX]

The problem for me was that if the amp and cabs are part of your sound you need to be using them for EVERY gig you do. About half the gigs I play involve some kind of equipment share with the back line which used to mean spending valuable sound check time trying to dial in the right sound from the cab(s) and/or amp I was having to use, and on several occasions having to admit defeat and go with what was the least horrible tone I could coax out of the rig in the time available. At the bigger gigs the bass amplification systems on stage make no contribution to sound I hear when I'm playing and the sound the audience hears FoH. 

 

I realise that perfectly flat amp and cab(s) are not really feasible, but the less the amp and cab(s) influence the sound the better IMO.

 

I also find it weird that the bassists who benefit the most from spending time and money agonising over esoteric amps and cabs are those playing in pub band with vocal-only PA systems, to punters who are mostly too drunk to notice.

[Dan Dare]

On 07/06/2022 at 23:02, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Coming up with a true FRFR cab isn't a problem for me, irrespective of budget. I don't use one because I don't want one.

 

Exactly and I feel the same way. But there are quite a few who do chase the spectre of FRFR. I tried running my bass, via a channel strip/preamp, through my PA, which is pretty clean and powerful (Fohhn). It sounded fat, smooth and rather characterless. I prefer the sound of it through my bass amp and cabs.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Dan Dare

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

The problem for me was that if the amp and cabs are part of your sound you need to be using them for EVERY gig you do. About half the gigs I play involve some kind of equipment share with the back line which used to mean spending valuable sound check time trying to dial in the right sound from the cab(s) and/or amp I was having to use, and on several occasions having to admit defeat and go with what was the least horrible tone I could coax out of the rig in the time available. At the bigger gigs the bass amplification systems on stage make no contribution to sound I hear when I'm playing and the sound the audience hears FoH. 

 

I realise that perfectly flat amp and cab(s) are not really feasible, but the less the amp and cab(s) influence the sound the better IMO.

 

I also find it weird that the bassists who benefit the most from spending time and money agonising over esoteric amps and cabs are those playing in pub band with vocal-only PA systems, to punters who are mostly too drunk to notice.

Yep, that’s why I went down the route of using a preamp/DI pedal. That way I know FOH get what I want them to, and I can then just either enjoy or endure the onstage rig. Fortunately my tone wasn’t bass heavy so not much tweaking for the room was ever required.

[BigRedX]

38 minutes ago, Lozz196 said:

Yep, that’s why I went down the route of using a preamp/DI pedal. That way I know FOH get what I want them to, and I can then just either enjoy or endure the onstage rig. Fortunately my tone wasn’t bass heavy so not much tweaking for the room was ever required.

 

Exactly, and that's why I ditched my rig in favour of a Helix and an occasional FRFR for monitoring at the smaller gigs (it's main use is for rehearsing). Because this has also replaced my guitar setup I actually made money out of the change.

[Chienmortbb]

12 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Coming up with a true FRFR cab isn't a problem for me, irrespective of budget. I don't use one because I don't want one.

That's democracy and why there are many cabs amps etc. I have used IEMs and to me it is a sterile, lifeless experience. I admit I could hear clearly but I felt I was not in the room.

 

but then that is my attitude to reading music (probably as I am too old and too lazy to learn). I think we have to accept that its different stokes for different folks.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Chienmortbb
Deleted stupid comment

[BigRedX]

To the OP, were you looking for advice or simply interested what other people were using (or would like use)?

[stevie]

There are two ways of designing a bass guitar cab. You either design them to be flat response or you design them to exaggerate particular frequencies. The second option is by far the easiest and cheapest, which is why almost everybody builds them that way.

 

If you don’t like a cab with a baked-in response, it’s not always possible to eq out what you dislike. That’s because the peaks in the response are often due to cone break-up, which means that, even if you do notch out the peaks, you’re still left with the distortion component. So you’re faced with the task of finding a speaker whose ‘tone’ appeals to you, or one that fits with your desired sound, or matches your other equipment.

 

Some players like cabs with pronounced mids while others prefer an exaggerated bass hump or mild upper midrange distortion – and choose their cabs accordingly. That’s fine. Given a decent eq, however, you can easily eq your tonal preferences into a flat response cab – and there’s always effects pedals and modellers. And – importantly IMO, you always know what your starting point is.

 

Amplifying bass guitar isn’t the same as amplifying a 6-string guitar, where the speaker is an important part of creating the overall sound of the guitar. It has more in common with amplifying a double bass. The main reason I prefer to use a flat response cab is not so much for the on-axis response, as that’s only part of the story, but more for the off-axis response, i.e. the power response. I also find that I don’t need a modeller. In fact, the only eq I use in the vast majority of venues is the 3-band eq on my bass.

[Stofferson]

ABM 600 - Barefaced four10 and two10, I can modulate cabs for size of the gig and the Bf 10's are ideal for me.

 

I like to feel the bass behind me, so I like a powerful rig, I take a DI out the head post EQ so the desk gets what the cabs get and the sound guy can fart about with it, on some larger gigs with a decent set up and soundcheck time, I've took a feed out the a parallel out on my pedalboard into a HX stomp running 2 cab sims also to desk, give the engineer a good mix of that and the DI from the ABM.

 

two10 for small gigs / rehearsal

four10 for everyday/most gigs

stack em up for the bigger gigs.

 

I don't tend to wander far, so I get my monitoring from the cabs and reserve the monitors in front for Guitar/Vocals/drum feeds etc.

Suits me and I don't think I'll ever veer to far away from that, aside from maybe a purchasing an IR loaded for ease instead of also taking a HX stomp in addition to usual stuff.