Is it me or is the current music scene CRAP!

[4000]

[quote name='OldGit' post='464333' date='Apr 16 2009, 07:51 PM']How far would you have to go to find a venue that regularly puts on originals gigs?

Can't you tap the market and put your own on regularly?[/quote]

These are things I'm trying to bottom out at the moment; there's one opportunity that may have opened up, but we'll see. Still only a gig every few months. As for putting on our own gigs, I may as well just burn the contents of my wallet and have done with it.

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

[quote name='steve-soar' post='463570' date='Apr 16 2009, 12:48 AM']Popular music, ie, Pop Music has been around for a 1,000 odd years.
In the early 60's, The right time, the right set of communication networks, the right economic situation was primed for the right pop group.
The Beatles were the first band that were able to communicate ideas of sex, anarchy, hedonism, murder, mental ilness, black magic, loneliness and all other human emotions and failings/celebrations, into 3 mins of perfect popular music.
The Beatles are without doubt, the most important pop band ever.[/quote]

My point wasn't disputing their influence, that is beyond argument, my point was more that for me personally Dillinger Escape Plan (for instance) is a much more important band because they were more important to the shaping of my taste in music and my understanding of music and have given me much more pleasure. I'd imagine this is the case for most people, and because of those personal attachments and being part of the developmental aspect of our listening habits, we attach more importance to those bands than stuff we may hear later down the line.

I find the artists that have struck me the most are ones that really blew my mind and opened something else that was new to me. The Beatles, as an example, are a band that I like but they don't fit that context for me.

Ultimately, as was pointed out earlier, the area that the OP is getting into is highly subjective and I suppose what I'm doing is trying to explain the personal context of that. The OP may not hear music that has the same qualities as Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin today, and if I were to suggest Pig Destroyer or Nevermore as modern bands that I believe are excellent in terms of songcraft there may be considerable disagreement (especially those decrying Metal as the province of fantasy nerds).

[Randy_Marsh]

[quote]Ultimately, as was pointed out earlier, the area that the OP is getting into is highly subjective and I suppose what I'm doing is trying to explain the personal context of that. The OP may not hear music that has the same qualities as Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin today, and if I were to suggest Pig Destroyer or Nevermore as modern bands that I believe are excellent in terms of songcraft there may be considerable disagreement (especially those decrying Metal as the province of fantasy nerds).[/quote]

Couldnt agree more! Thats just one vein of metal, that mainly being power metal. If you look at the other stuff coming around now such as metal-core bands like Parkway Drive and to an extent Architects there hugely skilled musicians who are excellent at what they do. The bands that are coming about now like this are brilliant, but thats just my opinion

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='463600' date='Apr 16 2009, 04:20 AM']Metal does itself no favours image-wise, with all the stupid songs about dragons and satan and pixies and hobbits or whatever. It's only ever going to appeal to people who read fantasy novels and attend sci-fi conventions.[/quote]

For valid reasons, a lot of metal fans value the escapism that such subject matter provides. I see no harm in that, personally.

That said I think this is a limited sample of the subject matter that metal covers and is generally restricted to two subgenres (Power Metal & Black Metal).

Edited April 16, 2009 by Lee Van Cleef

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Lee Van Cleef' post='464390' date='Apr 16 2009, 08:44 PM']For valid reasons, a lot of metal fans value the escapism that such subject matter provides.[/quote]


True.

After a tough day at work there's nothing I like more that slaying an imaginary dragon and taking a dump in a church yard.

[1sgs]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='464464' date='Apr 16 2009, 10:05 PM']True.

After a tough day at work there's nothing I like more that slaying an imaginary dragon and taking a dump in a church yard.[/quote]

In reverse order, of course........................

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='464464' date='Apr 16 2009, 10:05 PM']True.

After a tough day at work there's nothing I like more that slaying an imaginary dragon and taking a dump in a church yard.[/quote]

I suppose there's also nothing like doing the following after a tough day at work:

A. Viewing other people having a tough day.
B. Striking a material to produce vibrations.
C. Manipulating polygons on a screen with a controller.

Using reductionist statements it's possible to make anything sound foolish, like watching a Soap, playing an instrument or a computer game. Anyway, not much point in prolonging any "discussion."

Edited April 16, 2009 by Lee Van Cleef

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='Lee Van Cleef' post='464509' date='Apr 16 2009, 10:37 PM']I suppose there's also nothing like doing the following after a tough day at work:

A. Viewing other people having a tough day.
B. Striking a material to produce vibrations.
C. Manipulating polygons on a screen with a controller.[/quote]




You're right. Nothing weird with pretending your a wizard from the planet Zordov.

[OldGit]

[quote name='4000' post='464376' date='Apr 16 2009, 08:25 PM']As for putting on our own gigs, I may as well just burn the contents of my wallet and have done with it. [/quote]


Ha ha yeah, well at least you know that anyone putting on a gig needs to at least break even. That's why the venues have covers, tribs and party bands on as much as possible ...

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='464517' date='Apr 16 2009, 10:45 PM']You're right. Nothing weird with pretending your a wizard from the planet Zordov.[/quote]
I'm not sure quite why I'm bothering, but one last post before bedtime.

I see you've been reading this:

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman[/url]

Oh well, at least it's some form of education.

Edited April 16, 2009 by Lee Van Cleef

[Bass_In_Yer_Face]

[quote name='Golchen' post='463404' date='Apr 15 2009, 08:17 PM']well as far as I'm concerned the all time low was the one finger synth bands of the 80's. Boy did I hate that stuff.

At the moment I hear the odd record that I like, not that I ever listen to music on the radio - I prefer talk sport or 5 live.[/quote]

Sorry but I disagree...I grew up in the 80's and for me the synth bands are brilliant.

I posted a similar post some time ago as modern pop music is utter utter crap. Where is the new Led Zep/Clash/Smiths/Specials/New Order/Sto
ne Roses/Depeche Mode..etc.etc....

How anyone can come on here and tell me Franz Ferdinand/Killers/Artic Monkeys etc are fit to wipe the arse of the bands above is beyond me.

The only bands I here making halfway decent stuff is Kasabian & Keane. I did like 'A' & Mansun but nobody else did apparently!

Edited April 16, 2009 by Bass_In_Yer_Face

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Bass_In_Yer_Face' post='464572' date='Apr 16 2009, 11:50 PM']I posted a similar post some time ago as modern pop music is utter utter crap. Where is the new Led Zep/Clash/Smiths/Specials/New Order/Stone Roses/Depeche Mode..etc.etc....

How anyone can come on here and tell me Franz Ferdinand/Killers/Artic Monkeys etc are fit to wipe the arse of the bands above is beyond me.[/quote]

I was teenage from the late '80s to early '90s. And I had an older brother who was teenage during the late '70s early '80s, so really all the post-punk stuff and the "T-shirt band" stuff is the music I grew up with (and the big band stuff my mum listened to, which I still really like).

I first heard Arctic Monkeys when I changed a CD driving through Leeds and When The Sun Goes Down happened to be on the radio. First time in forever that I waited until the song ended before sticking another CD in. I hadn't heard any of the hype that had gone before, had no clue who they were, and went home and looked them up. Found more tunes, was equally impressed, amazed that they were kids. Disappointed that the album wasn't out yet. Bought it on the day of release.

IMO they deserved all the attention they got.

[4000]

[quote name='Bass_In_Yer_Face' post='464572' date='Apr 16 2009, 11:50 PM']Sorry but I disagree...I grew up in the 80's and for me the synth bands are brilliant.

I posted a similar post some time ago as modern pop music is utter utter crap. Where is the new Led Zep/Clash/Smiths/Specials/New Order/Sto
ne Roses/Depeche Mode..etc.etc....

How anyone can come on here and tell me Franz Ferdinand/Killers/Artic Monkeys etc are fit to wipe the arse of the bands above is beyond me.

The only bands I here making halfway decent stuff is Kasabian & Keane. I did like 'A' & Mansun but nobody else did apparently![/quote]

You see this is all just horses for courses, because although I'm not a big fan at all I much prefer any of the first 3 current bands you mention to Keane (who are possibly one of my least-favourite bands of all time). As for Kasabian, to me they just sound like they once heard 30 seconds of Space Ritual and have tried their best to replicate it without ever having heard it again.

Ultimately I think anyone who thinks their choice of "decent band" is the only option is somewhat missing the point. Good and bad bands are pointless divisions as everyone has a different opinion; there are only bands you like and bands you don't, and the reasons you like them will be many and varied and influenced by all sorts of nebulous factors.

[jmstone]

[quote name='4000' post='464640' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:18 AM']You see this is all just horses for courses, because although I'm not a big fan at all I much prefer any of the first 3 current bands you mention to Keane (who are possibly one of my least-favourite bands of all time). As for Kasabian, to me they just sound like they once heard 30 seconds of Space Ritual and have tried their best to replicate it without ever having heard it again.[/quote]

Hahaha! +1

[quote]Ultimately I think anyone who thinks their choice of "decent band" is the only option is somewhat missing the point. Good and bad bands are pointless divisions as everyone has a different opinion; there are only bands you like and bands you don't, and the reasons you like them will be many and varied and influenced by all sorts of nebulous factors.[/quote]

I agree.. In my opinion, if Kasabian is the best current band someone can find, I would think they are not looking hard enough (or they have very different tastes to me). Bands haven't got better or worse per say, just different.. but it's so personal. A band I like will probably be hated by the vast majority of the population.. and vice versa. I find it hard to believe there aren't bands out there that would satisfy any taste, but not having the same tastes, it makes it impossible to suggest any..

New bands clearly aren't still playing the same music of the 60s, 70s, 80s or 90s (unless they are generic crap) - if they did the scene wouldn't be progressing..

I think the following couple of places are great to hear what's happening out there (but won't appeal to all):

[url="http://www.dandelionradio.com/"]http://www.dandelionradio.com/[/url]
[url="http://www.digitalpodcast.com/browse-alternative_music-podcast-43-1.html"]http://www.digitalpodcast.com/browse-alter...dcast-43-1.html[/url]

For some retro sounds - not usually my cup of tea - this band is quite nice:

[url="http://www.myspace.com/tameimpala"]http://www.myspace.com/tameimpala[/url]

(particularly half full glass of wine)

James

[escholl]

[quote name='jmstone' post='464644' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:36 AM']Bands haven't got better or worse per say, just different.. but it's so personal.[/quote]

+1, what i've been trying to say the entire thread. one man's trash and all that...

[Skybone]

What's more worrying from my point of view, is the increasing number of people who get their music from free downloads off blogs/wherever. Not only is it killing off the record shops, but it's stopping the smaller, independant labels function, because they can't afford to sign up and release stuff from new bands. Anyone see the report on the BBC where they looked at independant record shops? There was something like 400 shops in the UK that went out of business in a year.

The t'interweb can be a great tool for promoting bands, but there's just too many people out there who want something for nothing, and who are helping to kill off the things that are helping to make the artist's lives that bit better.

As someone who's been in and out of bands for most of my life, the reality is that doing this costs money.

Money to feed your GAS, money to rehearse, money to get to gigs to play, money to record and release.

None of us would go through all that if it was something we weren't all very passionate about, and having people recognise that passion and helping to make our financial burden that little bit lighter, certainly helps towards making it worthwhile. Be it getting off their collective backsides and attending gigs, buying a CD or other merchandise or whatever, yet there's a lot of people out there who think that they can simply download thousands of albums for free, that they then download onto their MP3 players, and probably only ever listen to maybe 2 or 3 tracks. It's no longer about quality, searching out elusive albums from obscure bands, getting out to see bands at gigs, etc, it's about how many albums you can download for free...

If you are a musician, and you support free downloads, take a long, hard, objective look at what you're doing. Ask yourself if you want to sign that elusive record deal, or play as many gigs as you can, or just simply make a few quid so that you can carry on doing something that you love doing.

Home taping didn't kill the music industry, but free downloads of MP3's is certainly sounding the death knell.

[Geoff]

[quote name='Skybone' post='464807' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:03 AM']None of us would go through all that if it was something we weren't all very passionate about, and having people recognise that passion and helping to make our financial burden that little bit lighter, certainly helps towards making it worthwhile. Be it getting off their collective backsides and attending gigs, buying a CD or other merchandise or whatever, yet there's a lot of people out there who think that they can simply download thousands of albums for free, that they then download onto their MP3 players, and probably only ever listen to maybe 2 or 3 tracks. It's no longer about quality, searching out elusive albums from obscure bands, getting out to see bands at gigs, etc, it's about how many albums you can download for free...[/quote]

Agreed on that point. People seem to be missing out on everything else that goes along with the music as well, such as artwork and the whole package you'd get with a cd/vinyl/tape. I love hunting for cd's that are hard to find and I like having something tangible sat there at home. I was searching through my parents record collection recently and was blown away by some of the ways the album was presented in its sleeve. Just having some file on your mp3 player/computer just seems a bit rubbish really (imo of course) and I kinda feel like you're only getting half of what the artist has got to offer. Also having a full album sat there gets you listening to everything on it and there are many tracks I hated when I was younger that I know love as my understanding of music has grown. If i'd just bought the 1 or 2 tracks i'd liked at the time, i'd be missing out on it now. Dont get me wrong, I think digital media is extremely useful and a great step forward in terms of portability etc, but it also just turns bands/artists into nothing but a named line on your screen.

[jmstone]

[quote name='Skybone' post='464807' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:03 AM']What's more worrying from my point of view, is the increasing number of people who get their music from free downloads off blogs/wherever. Not only is it killing off the record shops, but it's stopping the smaller, independant labels function, because they can't afford to sign up and release stuff from new bands. Anyone see the report on the BBC where they looked at independant record shops? There was something like 400 shops in the UK that went out of business in a year.[/quote]

Don't know if you have any objective proof that this is the reason for this happening? I reckon the independent record shops were more likely put out of business by amazon (and online retailing) than by mp3s and filesharing..

Personally I am spending more on music now than ever before - mainly driven by hearing new stuff on podcasts, internet radio, recommendations on emusic etc.

To be bothered to rip a song out of a podcast is about as much of a threat to the music industry as taping top of the pops onto a cassette IMHO.

[quote]If you are a musician, and you support free downloads, take a long, hard, objective look at what you're doing. Ask yourself if you want to sign that elusive record deal, or play as many gigs as you can, or just simply make a few quid so that you can carry on doing something that you love doing.[/quote]

I think you also need to take a look at ways of making money out of the massive audience the internet affords.

James

[jmstone]

[quote name='Geoff' post='464813' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:13 AM']Agreed on that point. People seem to be missing out on everything else that goes along with the music as well, such as artwork and the whole package you'd get with a cd/vinyl/tape. I love hunting for cd's that are hard to find and I like having something tangible sat there at home. I was searching through my parents record collection recently and was blown away by some of the ways the album was presented in its sleeve.[/quote]

Also true.. Another reason why vinyl has still not died out - There is definitely a place for collectible 7 inches/eps/LPs for good bands! Not so sure that CDs are that great (particularly not when those little tabs in the middle of the CD box which are supposed to hold the CD in place fall off).

James

[escholl]

[quote name='Skybone' post='464807' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:03 AM']Home taping didn't kill the music industry, but free downloads of MP3's is certainly sounding the death knell.[/quote]

Sorry, but none of what you've just said is true. It's the same line the industry has been whining about for years -- the fact is they brought it on themselves by refusing to embrace the new technology, refusing to consider new licensing options, and charging 15.99 for a CD that has maybe a few good tracks on it?

Independent stores went out of business undoubtedly in part because of places like Play and Amazon -- it's a shame, yes. What artists and the industry have to realize, and many are, is that they have to completely bring the fans back into it -- which they seem to have lost sight of for a while. You want me to see you live? Then make it worth my while, and don't charge some absurd price. Want me to buy the CD? Give me a reason -- because the reason I and many others buy CD's is not for the music, it's the whole package -- music, album art, any extras, etc. Not like most artists make a whole lot from every CD sold anyways, if you really want to support a band, see them live and buy a shirt -- they'll make much more that way.

Personally, I would rather spread my music around for free digitally, get a fan base out there by using the internet, and rely on them and their appreciation of me to support me by buying CD's and seeing me live. That is pretty much the way of the future, and the sooner the industry recognizes that, the better off they'll be.

[Skybone]

[quote]I think you also need to take a look at ways of making money out of the massive audience the internet affords.[/quote]

Believe me, I've tried all that, and even then, I kept getting asked for free downloads. You try to explain that you're doing this off your own back, at no profit, but the question keeps coming back "why can't I download this for free?".

[quote]Don't know if you have any objective proof that this is the reason for this happening? I reckon the independent record shops were more likely put out of business by amazon (and online retailing) than by mp3s and filesharing.[/quote]
[quote]Sorry, but none of what you've just said is true. It's the same line the industry has been whining about for years -- the fact is they brought it on themselves by refusing to embrace the new technology, refusing to consider new licensing options, and charging 15.99 for a CD that has maybe a few good tracks on it?[/quote]

A good point, online traders and supermarkets are having their hand in helping to kill smaller record shops off too, but the downloaders & file sharer's are effectively helping to bump up the over the counter prices by making the record companies produce stuff in smaller batches, and charging the distributor's more for their product. Those increased margins are helping to push up the costs for the shops, and they're charging us more. Can't find the link to the BBC article, but it was pretty objective.

[quote]You want me to see you live? Then make it worth my while, and don't charge some absurd price. Want me to buy the CD? Give me a reason -- because the reason I and many others buy CD's is not for the music, it's the whole package -- music, album art, any extras, etc. Not like most artists make a whole lot from every CD sold anyways, if you really want to support a band, see them live and buy a shirt -- they'll make much more that way.[/quote]

Very true, but this is also effecting the underground music scene too, where you can get into a gig for £5.00 and see 3, 4 or more bands. Last show I played, there were 10 bands playing an all dayer, it cost £6.00 on the door. Do the maths, £6.00 to see 10 bands? Sounds like a bargain to me. There were also about 10 or 15 people there who'd travelled over from mainland Europe to see some of the bands, there were at least 20 people who'd travelled up from the south of England to Yorkshire for the show, excluding the bands who'd done the same journey.

My point exactly is that you buy an album for the whole package, and most bands will go the extra mile to make that package worthwhile for the people who put their (male chicken) on the block, and get their hands in their pockets to support a band.

There's using the internet to establish your band, but at the end of the day, if you can afford to spend time, money and effort to write and record the best songs you can, then great. Unfortunately, most of us out there have to get jobs, so that we can not only support our families, but also to simply carry on doing something that we all love doing, making music.

[jmstone]

[quote name='Skybone' post='464899' date='Apr 17 2009, 12:27 PM']Believe me, I've tried all that, and even then, I kept getting asked for free downloads. You try to explain that you're doing this off your own back, at no profit, but the question keeps coming back "why can't I download this for free?".[/quote]

Well, maybe this is a difficult transition period, but I think people will get more used to paying for downloads as time goes on.

One interesting model I heard of, which apparently worked for one band, was making all their tracks free downloads at low bitrate mp3 quality, but to get the "proper" versions (either high bitrate mp3, maybe flac or even CD), people had to pay... It is easy to justify - bandwidth isn't free, the band needs to make money somehow..

IIRC I think bands used to get paid 50p per CD sale.. You can get close to that now per single mp3 download.. so with the right sound, and the right advertising, it should be easier for smallish bands to make money than it used to be.

[quote]Very true, but this is also effecting the underground music scene too, where you can get into a gig for £5.00 and see 3, 4 or more bands. Last show I played, there were 10 bands playing an all dayer, it cost £6.00 on the door. Do the maths, £6.00 to see 10 bands? Sounds like a bargain to me. There were also about 10 or 15 people there who'd travelled over from mainland Europe to see some of the bands, there were at least 20 people who'd travelled up from the south of England to Yorkshire for the show, excluding the bands who'd done the same journey.[/quote]

I'm sorry to hear that internationally famous bands are only getting to play for low door takings, in multi-band shows.. I thought that was only the "toilet circuit".. Still, it is up to the individual band to decide if they want to play those kinds of gigs. There is always the possibility of putting on your own shows/tour, and if the fans want to see you enough, they will pay whatever you decide to charge.

James

[escholl]

[quote name='Skybone' post='464899' date='Apr 17 2009, 12:27 PM']Unfortunately, most of us out there have to get jobs, so that we can not only support our families, but also to simply carry on doing something that we all love doing, making music.[/quote]

anyone who's in the originals scene just to make money is doing it for all the wrong reasons anyways. but if you're not in it to make money but just to do something you love, why are you so concerned about making money anyways? surely it's more important to you that your music should bring happiness into other peoples lives? it is to me, at least.

this is a decade old argument now but it's my firm belief that free downloads have not hurt the industry -- it's just given them an excuse to whine about it because they're too stubborn to change their ways. they had it so good for so long, and now the power has been put back in the hands of the audience they don't like it.

as far as the prices paid for an all day festival, well, that's nothing to do with the internet, is it? the fact is, if your music is freely available, more people will listen to it. and the more people that listen to it, the more people who will see you live. and want to buy your cd. and your stuff.

[escholl]

[quote name='jmstone' post='464940' date='Apr 17 2009, 01:01 PM']One interesting model I heard of, which apparently worked for one band, was making all their tracks free downloads at low bitrate mp3 quality, but to get the "proper" versions (either high bitrate mp3, maybe flac or even CD), people had to pay...[/quote]

that is exactly the kind of attitude i support, and one that the industry needs to recognize. artists need to be put back in touch with how important their fans really are!

[Twigman]

[quote name='escholl' post='465156' date='Apr 17 2009, 03:48 PM']anyone who's in the originals scene just to make money is doing it for all the wrong reasons anyways. but if you're not in it to make money but just to do something you love, why are you so concerned about making money anyways? surely it's more important to you that your music should bring happiness into other peoples lives? it is to me, at least.[/quote]
I find we are making more money now than we were in the late 80s when we were regularly putting out albums and touring.
[quote name='escholl' post='465156' date='Apr 17 2009, 03:48 PM']this is a decade old argument now but it's my firm belief that free downloads have not hurt the industry -- it's just given them an excuse to whine about it because they're too stubborn to change their ways. they had it so good for so long, and now the power has been put back in the hands of the audience they don't like it.[/quote]
It has definitely [i]helped[/i] us by allowing our music to reach a far wider audience. Our label in the 80s - Midnight Music had a very poor marketing strategy which severely limited our exposure..now we are on Cherry Red who are a little more clued up but we, ourselves, are embracing the interweb and getting more work directly as a result.
[quote name='escholl' post='465156' date='Apr 17 2009, 03:48 PM']as far as the prices paid for an all day festival, well, that's nothing to do with the internet, is it? the fact is, if your music is freely available, more people will listen to it. and the more people that listen to it, the more people who will see you live. and want to buy your cd. and your stuff.[/quote]Potentially the fees for playing at the more high profile festivals are sky high. The pyramid stage at Glastonbury pays up to £250k for a set..........and that's only the 2nd stage, not the main stage. Not that we'd ever get to headline the pyramid @ Glastonbury - in fact getting a slot at all is proving very difficult if not impossible.

That said we've never had it so good.