Is it me or is the current music scene CRAP!

[Guest Lee Van Cleef]

I view obtaining free MP3s the way I viewed tape trading when I was younger. I used to make tapes of albums for my friends and they'd do the same for me in exhange. I got to hear new music and as a result it helped me to decide whether I was going to buy an album or not. If I didn't like it I'd reuse the tape, if I did I bought the album.

Regardless of the format, however, there are always going to be people that are not really bothered about owning the actual product. Be it downloading MP3s or recording stuff off the radio in place of purchasing the CD. It's always gone on, I just wonder if the prices of CDs aren't driving more people in the direction... or the sheer quantity of stuff isn't making it seem like a fair compromise for stuff one can't afford.

I personally hope thinks don't go entirely electronic, I won't pay for an MP3 as to me its an inferior product, I'll happily shell out a tenner though to buy an album. If I can't afford the album, then I'm content to do without.

[dj150888]

Real music has gone back to where it belongs, the underground. I very rarely go to a gig with more than 1000 people at it, in fact, an average crowd for a gig I attend is probably around 400 people.

The current music scene is stronger than ever, you just need to work a little harder to find the real gems among the infinite amount of absolute sh*te out there

[ARGH]

[quote name='dj150888' post='465379' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:04 PM']Real music has gone back to where it belongs, the underground. I very rarely go to a gig with more than 1000 people at it, in fact, an average crowd for a gig I attend is probably around 400 people.

The current music scene is stronger than ever, you just need to work a little harder to find the real gems among the infinite amount of absolute sh*te out there[/quote]
400...

You sell out....

[dj150888]

.....do I detect a little sarcasm? I'm not trying to be "more underground than thou"



.....but I bet I have a better vinyl collection than you

[ARGH]

[quote name='dj150888' post='465399' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:18 PM'].....do I detect a little sarcasm? I'm not trying to be "more underground than thou"



.....but I bet I have a better vinyl collection than you [/quote]
Yeah..well I have everything ever made on an acitate......Gatefold-Digi-ultra limited,diehard,never to be repressed Ever (unless finances flow through) ...


...WITH a free Tee-shirt (also limited edition...but can be bootlegged from the label in dire financial emergency,when the band dont know)...and a badge.

[Tee]

[quote name='escholl' post='464850' date='Apr 17 2009, 11:44 AM']Want me to buy the CD? Give me a reason -- because the reason I and many others buy CD's is not for the music, it's the whole package -- music, album art, any extras, etc.[/quote]

The Raveonettes album 'Lust Lust Lust' came with 3-D specs tucked inside, to look at the cover/back. A fun little gimmick. Like the original 'Sgt Pepper's' cut-outs.

[escholl]

just had something in channel 4 news about this internet piracy thing....guy from the record company made the industry look [i]real[/i] good...

when will they learn?

[ARGH]

I sometimes feel happy that labels are dying.......

[escholl]

[quote name='ARGH' post='465416' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:30 PM']I sometimes feel happy that labels are dying.......[/quote]

me too, if they were. they're not though, and the people that complain the loudest are the ones who are losing the least (usually nothing at all)!


is it [i]really[/i] any wonder why so many artists start the own label and/or find another way to do it on their own?

[ARGH]

[quote name='escholl' post='465421' date='Apr 17 2009, 07:33 PM']me too, if they were. they're not though, and the people that complain the loudest are the ones who are losing the least (usually nothing at all)!


is it [i]really[/i] any wonder why so many artists start the own label and/or find another way to do it on their own?[/quote]
You make anything,and sell it with your heart...theres ALWAYS some slime making a buck off your back.

[Skybone]

[quote name='"escholl"']anyone who's in the originals scene just to make money is doing it for all the wrong reasons anyways.[/quote]

That is not what I was saying.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need money, music would be free and we'd all get along, no wars, no famine, no poverty. Unfortunately, in this society that we live in, money is king. Look at what's happened in the last 6 to 9 months. I along with many others lost my job, though I'm fortunate enough to have found another one, but my family and I've had to relocate, and I've had to leave my band when we were starting to make a name for ourselves.

Who paid for your last bout of GAS? Who put petrol/diesel in the vehicle that you travelled to your last rehearsal/gig? Who paid for your last recording session? Who paid for those CD's you give away? Who did the artwork for those CD's? Who's internet account are you using?

Being in a band costs. It costs time and effort, as well as money. Unfortunately, the time and effort that you put into a band cannot be quantified, the only measure you can put on it is what you personally get out of it. I put heart and soul into my last band, and I also funded it. I paid for the recording sessions, I travelled 140 miles round trip to rehearse, I bought a lot of gear, as did the other guys, and I got a lot of satisfaction out of it. We got a lot of positive feedback from gigs and from reviews of the CD's we released. I sold more CD's and t-shirts to mainland Europe and America than to the UK, as well as giving a shed load away for promotion to zines/sites/promoters/etc and didn't make a penny on any of it, everything was ploughed back into the band, but still people expect us to give our music away.

It won't stop me from making music in the future, it won't stop me from trying to get my music heard by anyone who wants to listen, it'll make me think twice about trying to make a serious go of things again though.

[escholl]

[quote name='Skybone' post='465549' date='Apr 17 2009, 09:30 PM']That is not what I was saying.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't need money, music would be free and we'd all get along, no wars, no famine, no poverty. Unfortunately, in this society that we live in, money is king. Look at what's happened in the last 6 to 9 months. I along with many others lost my job, though I'm fortunate enough to have found another one, but my family and I've had to relocate, and I've had to leave my band when we were starting to make a name for ourselves.

Who paid for your last bout of GAS? Who put petrol/diesel in the vehicle that you travelled to your last rehearsal/gig? Who paid for your last recording session? Who paid for those CD's you give away? Who did the artwork for those CD's? Who's internet account are you using?

Being in a band costs. It costs time and effort, as well as money. Unfortunately, the time and effort that you put into a band cannot be quantified, the only measure you can put on it is what you personally get out of it. I put heart and soul into my last band, and I also funded it. I paid for the recording sessions, I travelled 140 miles round trip to rehearse, I bought a lot of gear, as did the other guys, and I got a lot of satisfaction out of it. We got a lot of positive feedback from gigs and from reviews of the CD's we released. I sold more CD's and t-shirts to mainland Europe and America than to the UK, as well as giving a shed load away for promotion to zines/sites/promoters/etc and didn't make a penny on any of it, everything was ploughed back into the band, but still people expect us to give our music away.

It won't stop me from making music in the future, it won't stop me from trying to get my music heard by anyone who wants to listen, it'll make me think twice about trying to make a serious go of things again though.[/quote]

hi, in a band myself thanks, fully support all my own expenses, been laid off twice in the last year -- and still think free internet music distribution is the way forward. i'm not saying artists should never make any money, what i'm saying is that spreading your music around for free is an excellent way to build a fanbase. people who like you WILL buy your cd, they WILL come see you live, they WILL buy your stuff -- have faith in the consumer! when i give music away, it's not costing me anything (in the sense that, i would be doing all this stuff with the band anyways -- rehearsing, recording, playing live), and it's making me a lot more in the long run than to just expect people who've never heard of us to buy our album -- because when they don't, and then they don't come to our shows, they don't buy our stuff -- that [i]is[/i] costing me money. see?

sadly most of the industry is still set in their old ways -- luckily however a select few artists and labels are embracing the next generation, whether it's by providing free downloads or simply by just remembering that it's the fans that make your art worth anything at all!

[TimR]

Originals bands have been cutting off their noses to spite their faces for as long as I can remember. The originals band that I was in during the 80s refused to play covers. Its difficult to get your music out to large numbers of people doing your own material.

The Beatles (and many other 60s bands) started as a covers band, they had to play 3-4 hours a night in the German clubs, they sneaked in their own material bit by bit, the tunes that went down well they kept and those that bombed were dropped. To go to a venue and play 30-40 mins of YOUR songs AT the audience and expect them to fall at your feet is naive at best.

The band I'm in at the moment want to play "classic" 80's pop tunes. I remember the 80s and the lack of good music at the time, but there were 520 top 40s in 10 years so even with a conservative estimate of only ten singles a week released that would be 5200 singles.

There's plenty of artists around, just don't expect to hear a great record every day. History has shown you only get 1 or 2 every few weeks.

[4000]

[quote name='TimR' post='465770' date='Apr 18 2009, 12:54 AM']Originals bands have been cutting off their noses to spite their faces for as long as I can remember. The originals band that I was in during the 80s refused to play covers. Its difficult to get your music out to large numbers of people doing your own material.

The Beatles (and many other 60s bands) started as a covers band, they had to play 3-4 hours a night in the German clubs, they sneaked in their own material bit by bit, the tunes that went down well they kept and those that bombed were dropped. To go to a venue and play 30-40 mins of YOUR songs AT the audience and expect them to fall at your feet is naive at best.

The band I'm in at the moment want to play "classic" 80's pop tunes. I remember the 80s and the lack of good music at the time, but there were 520 top 40s in 10 years so even with a conservative estimate of only ten singles a week released that would be 5200 singles.

There's plenty of artists around, just don't expect to hear a great record every day. History has shown you only get 1 or 2 every few weeks.[/quote]

I don't expect people to fall at our feet, I just want to play a gig. Why should I have to play covers? It's like a painter having to make a living copying other people's paintings. Bollocks, basically. I used to be in a different originals band and we played a couple of covers, but no-one knew they were covers. We went down a storm 99% of the time, and the most popular tracks? Our own. It all depends where you play and who you're playing to. I'd sooner give up playing live altogether than have to play covers for a living. Unless of course I was playing Space Ritual in its entirety.

Edited April 18, 2009 by 4000

[TimR]

[quote name='4000' post='465811' date='Apr 18 2009, 01:22 AM']I don't expect people to fall at our feet, I just want to play a gig. Why should I have to play covers? It's like a painter having to make a living copying other people's paintings.[/quote]

No its not. A painting is a permanent thing. Once its made, its made. Like a recording. I would agree what's the point of recording covers. But Duffy, Winehouse, Sugar Babes etc seem to be making a mint out of it.

Playing live is completely different. Its more like an actor. How many actors turn down Shakespeare because every other actor has performed it and its just doing covers and they'd rather be playing in an original play.

There are audiences for both. Why just limit yourself to one audience when you know there is a bigger audience for the other. Play pubs, do two 45 minute sets, 70 mins of covers, music you like played in your style with 20 mins of your best material thrown in.

[OldGit]

[quote name='4000' post='465811' date='Apr 18 2009, 01:22 AM']I don't expect people to fall at our feet, I just want to play a gig. Why should I have to play covers? It's like a painter having to make a living copying other people's paintings. Bollocks, basically. [size=3][b]I used to be in a different originals band and we played a couple of covers, but no-one knew they were covers. We went down a storm 99% of the time, [/b][/size]and the most popular tracks? Our own. It all depends where you play and who you're playing to. I'd sooner give up playing live altogether than have to play covers for a living. Unless of course I was playing Space Ritual in its entirety. [/quote]

So what did your successful covers band do that made them successful? And why can't you do that in your local venues now?
Get a Monday gig and build. It still sounds like you expect the venue to lay on an appreciative audience for you rather than generate one yourselves.

Oh and the Beatles method is ancient history. I was there in the 60's and they paved the way for the guitar band but don't think for one moment that things are like that now.

[Prosebass]

[quote name='4000' post='465811' date='Apr 18 2009, 01:22 AM']I don't expect people to fall at our feet, I just want to play a gig. Why should I have to play covers? It's like a painter having to make a living copying other people's paintings. Bollocks, basically. I used to be in a different originals band and we played a couple of covers, but no-one knew they were covers. We went down a storm 99% of the time, and the most popular tracks? Our own. It all depends where you play and who you're playing to. I'd sooner give up playing live altogether than have to play covers for a living. Unless of course I was playing Space Ritual in its entirety. [/quote]

+1 on this , exactly my attitude when I was playing gigs.

With arguments like this I like to quote Billy Cobham

[quote]When I put something together I think of the people involved, the musicians and whether we can enjoy an involvement, a relationship and help each other evolve a bit more. If people enjoy it, which we hope they will, and the musical respect and admiration we share is there, then I think those are the factors which lead to the best kind of music. That is really all I am interested in , to play the best possible music.[/quote]

amen.....

[4000]

[quote name='OldGit' post='466035' date='Apr 18 2009, 12:19 PM']So what did your successful covers band do that made them successful? And why can't you do that in your local venues now?
Get a Monday gig and build. It still sounds like you expect the venue to lay on an appreciative audience for you rather than generate one yourselves.

Oh and the Beatles method is ancient history. I was there in the 60's and they paved the way for the guitar band but don't think for one moment that things are like that now.[/quote]

I think everyone is missing the point really. The audience isn't really the issue, I just want the opportunity to actually play TO an audience. The main difference between now and then (previous band) is that the venues aren't there any more; 90% of the venues we used to play at don't have bands anymore at all, and 5 of the remaining 10 percent don't have originals bands. Even if the old band was still going we'd still have nowhere to play.

[4000]

[quote name='TimR' post='466034' date='Apr 18 2009, 12:15 PM']No its not. A painting is a permanent thing. Once its made, its made. Like a recording. I would agree what's the point of recording covers. But Duffy, Winehouse, Sugar Babes etc seem to be making a mint out of it.

Playing live is completely different. Its more like an actor. How many actors turn down Shakespeare because every other actor has performed it and its just doing covers and they'd rather be playing in an original play.[/quote]

Thing is, I'm a painter too (or have been) and feel the same about that, to the point where I gave it up for a long period for similar reasons. It's obviously something in my makeup. FWIW if I was trying to make a living by playing live you'd have a fair point, but I'm not. I don't object to doing a couple of covers in a set (we actually do) but I have no interest in performing a set which consists mainly of covers; there is no artistic interest for me at all in doing that. I've always said I'd much sooner see a bunch of kids who can barely play trying to do something original than the most accomplished cover band in the world; apparently the vast majority of people don't feel the same.

I'm still up for Space Ritual live though!

Edited April 18, 2009 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='Prosebass' post='466048' date='Apr 18 2009, 12:33 PM']+1 on this , exactly my attitude when I was playing gigs.

With arguments like this I like to quote Billy Cobham



amen.....[/quote]

Amen +1!

[OldGit]

[quote name='4000' post='466116' date='Apr 18 2009, 01:33 PM']I think everyone is missing the point really. The audience isn't really the issue, I just want the opportunity to actually play TO an audience. The main difference between now and then (previous band) is that the venues aren't there any more; 90% of the venues we used to play at don't have bands anymore at all, and 5 of the remaining 10 percent don't have originals bands. Even if the old band was still going we'd still have nowhere to play.[/quote]

No, The audience [b][size=3]is[/size][/b] the issue.

If you are not entertaining enough to attract a decent audience no one will give you a gig at present as there is not the spare cash to risk it.
Why should they when the next band asking is playing easy to market cover/trib/party stuff that does fill the venue?

You said earlier that you don't want to risk your own money to put on your own gigs and you don't want to play covers but you still want a gig.

Your only option is to bullsh1t a gig in a covers venue then sell 300 tickets and prove you can beat the covers bands at their own game or wait for teh recession to blow over .......

[skankdelvar]

You have my fullest sympathy - but Old Git's right. The starving artist just starves. Then he or she is a dead artist.

If you've got an alternative source of income, then fine - be as original as you like - the audience is almost irrelevant. But if you want to build an audience and make a living off them, you have to give them what they want - it's a transaction which any professional artist accepts.

So you need to find an audience that will like your stuff. Which means finding a promoter or a venue that does that stuff. And if there isn't one locally, you either have to travel or start your own event - which isn't that difficult.

Edited April 18, 2009 by skankdelvar

[4000]

[quote name='skankdelvar' post='466208' date='Apr 18 2009, 04:03 PM']You have my fullest sympathy - but Old Git's right. The starving artist just starves. Then he or she is a dead artist.

If you've got an alternative source of income, then fine - be as original as you like - the audience is almost irrelevant. But if you want to build an audience and make a living off them, you have to give them what they want - it's a transaction which any professional artist accepts.

So you need to find an audience that will like your stuff. Which means finding a promoter or a venue that does that stuff. And if there isn't one locally, you either have to travel or start your own event - which isn't that difficult.[/quote]

As I said, I don't have to make a living out of playing music, I have a full time job (as crap as that is). My point, again, is that there are hardly any venues round here who will put originals bands on to start with. Yes, we could start our own events, but whilst I do have a job my pockets are shallow; I've recently sold 4 instruments to get myself out of the red (although admittedly I did soften the blow by taking one on board ). I have never made any money gigging in 29 years but that doesn't bother me at all; the only thing that bothers me is not even getting the [i]opportunity[/i] to play to people. I cannot believe I'm the only person on here who has experienced this; if I am, then I really am living in the wrong area.

Travelling; it would be nice but unfortunately when many of the band have other commitments or families to bring up (as I've said before, we're all in our 40s now) it's not as easy as it used to be. We're not kids anymore (as much as I wish I was) so it's not a case of just jumping in a Transit as the mood takes us. My point, ultimately, is that it would be nice if (as appears to be the case in other areas) somewhere local would have the odd originals night, as several did a couple of years ago. Now there is one venue that is now taking a chance with that so we'll see where that leads, but as I've said before, the bulk of the places that did have are now only taking covers bands. Having said that, one of the main gigging pubs in the area recently shut down altogether so maybe things are starting to get worse all round. I will admit to feeling rather apathetic about this these days, but that's mainly a result of being faced with so much apathy.

Edited April 18, 2009 by 4000

[4000]

[quote name='OldGit' post='466178' date='Apr 18 2009, 03:07 PM']No, The audience [b][size=3]is[/size][/b] the issue.

If you are not entertaining enough to attract a decent audience no one will give you a gig at present as there is not the spare cash to risk it.
Why should they when the next band asking is playing easy to market cover/trib/party stuff that does fill the venue?[/quote]

Point is we'll play for free, and usually do, nearly always have. Doesn't cost anyone anything. How can we prove whether we're entertaining enough if we can't get on in the first place? We'd happily play for nothing [i]before[/i] a cover band, but no, that's usually not acceptable either. Unknown quantity. All I can say is that many of you are obviously lucky enough not to be subjected to the type of artistic backwater that is Blackpool.

[OldGit]

[quote name='4000' post='466256' date='Apr 18 2009, 05:21 PM']Point is we'll play for free, and usually do, nearly always have. [color="#FF0000"][size=3]Doesn't cost anyone anything[/size].[/color] How can we prove whether we're entertaining enough if we can't get on in the first place? We'd happily play for nothing [i]before[/i] a cover band, but no, that's usually not acceptable either. Unknown quantity. All I can say is that many of you are obviously lucky enough not to be subjected to the type of artistic backwater that is Blackpool.[/quote]

I don't think Blackpool is unusual or you are alone here.
Everyone is having a financially hard time..

You playing for nothing does not mean it costs the venue nothing to put you on.
They still have to pay the rent etc, and the staff.

The thing that many bands don't understand is the opportunity costs.
That's the difference between you playing and attracting no one and costing them a night's costs with no profit, and them having a covers band ram the place and them making a shedload of profit and thus staying in business another day.

Good luck getting one of the originals gigs.
Let us know how it goes..