Accidentals Key of C

[stewblack]

Reading a transcription in key of C. It employs both flat and sharp symbols. I was under the impression one ought not to mix these and I can make sense of the why and how in all other keys but not C. Is there a rule?

 

[TKenrick]

Can you post a picture of the offending transcription? Whilst C major won't have accidentals in the key signature that doesn't preclude sharps or flats from appearing within particular bars to accommodate notes that are outside of the C major scale.

 

Sharps and flats don't get mixed in key signatures, but non-diatonic notes might need to be labelled with either according to their context (which direction the line moves in and/or what the chord being played at the time is).

[Bilbo]

In my experience, the 'rules' have been created within the context of Classical music forms and don't always travel that well into 'secular' music. I always try to keep all flats or all sharps in the same bar but, even then, there are passages where this is compromised. Chromatic lines are one area where the ideals are often difficult to maintain. I have to admit that, as someone whose is essentially self taught as a reader, I may be getting things wrong sometimes.

[zbd1960]

As you say, the key signature for Cmaj has no sharps or flats. However, that does not preclude them appearing as accidentals, especially if modulating between keys.  For example, it would be fairly common for a piece in C to modulate for a while to the dominant, which is Gmaj which would require F#s. Or to the sub-dominant, Fmaj, in which case Bbs will appear. Often a modulation is temporary and does not justify changing the key signature. Also, the harmonic language of the chords being used might require the accidentals, especially in jazz where things like a #4/b5 or #11 are fairly common. As a general rule, you tend to sharpen if the melodic line is ascending and flatten for descending. The other aspect is how the chord being used is 'spelt'     

[stewblack]

19 hours ago, TKenrick said:

Can you post a picture of the offending transcription? Whilst C major won't have accidentals in the key signature that doesn't preclude sharps or flats from appearing within particular bars to accommodate notes that are outside of the C major scale.

 

Sharps and flats don't get mixed in key signatures, but non-diatonic notes might need to be labelled with either according to their context (which direction the line moves in and/or what the chord being played at the time is).

I could but I'm in bed now! There is the occasional F# and the occasional Bb and mixing them seemed odd to me.

Edited July 2, 2022 by stewblack

[velvetkevorkian]

B♭ and F# are more commonly used than A# and G♭, despite being enharmonic equivalents, so they're less likely to trip up the reader in most cases. As ever though it depends on context.

[stewblack]

1 hour ago, velvetkevorkian said:

B♭ and F# are more commonly used than A# and G♭, despite being enharmonic equivalents, so they're less likely to trip up the reader in most cases. As ever though it depends on context.

This makes sense to me. But I have a very strict bass tutor who seldom allows me to take the easy path

[Guest]

It’s common practice in jazz lead sheets where a song has lots of key changes and no very strong pull to one key, to write it in C with lots of sharps and flats. It just makes it easier to read as otherwise the piece is full of natural signs as well as flats and sharps as inevitably there will be chromatic elements. Even in a tune that has a key signature (E.g. Autumn Leaves), there are usually key changes that take both melody and harmony outside the home key, so inevitably there will be either/or sharps and flats present.

 

One piece of advice I would give is to write the note based on the harmony. On too many charts I’ve seen the transcriber put the line down without the chord against which it is played, and it tends to make the chart much harder to read and to understand.

 

For example, if in the key of G, and the chord is D7, and the bar consists of 4 quarter notes D, E and then a chromatic to walk up from F to the next bar (G), then write the notes D, E, F, F# and not D, E, F, Gb. Conversely, in the same key, if the bar was two beats of D7 and two beats of Ab7, then a possible bass line could be D, F#, Ab, Gb - seems very odd to write the same pitch (F#/Gb) two different ways, but it’s serving the underlying harmony and makes a lot more sense than an F# note over an Ab7 chord! Written correctly, the first two beats are root and major 3rd of D7, the second two beats are root and minor 7th of Ab7. If you learn scales and arpeggios, then this will make more sense as well as it will fit like a glove with your knowledge. Written this way, it’ll also help educate learning players (or at the very least raise questions whose answers will provoke new knowledge).
 

This is the main reason why learning the harmony of a tune and not just the notes gives you a wider and more complete view - and it makes for better transcriptions that also serve as deeper study pieces. It also makes it very straightforward when deciding to write a note as a sharp or its enharmonic equivalent as a flat (or even whether Fb or E, or B# or C, is the better choice). The trade off is time - learning and transcribing the chords as well as notes for a reasonably complex piece can take weeks if you’re not a natural keyboard player (which I am very much not and don’t even own a keyboard so have to do it all by ear) 

 

[stewblack]

Great advice everyone thank you

[Newfoundfreedom]

Wow! I knew there was a lot I didn't know. But I didn't know how much I didn't know until I read all this stuff I didn't know about. If you know what I mean. I don't.

[zbd1960]

23 hours ago, stewblack said:

I could but I'm in bed now! There is the occasional F# and the occasional Bb and mixing them seemed odd to me.

Sounds very much like temporary modulations to Gmaj and Fmaj then 

[stewblack]

17 minutes ago, zbd1960 said:

Sounds very much like temporary modulations to Gmaj and Fmaj then 

Correct. 

[stewblack]

8 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

Wow! I knew there was a lot I didn't know. But I didn't know how much I didn't know until I read all this stuff I didn't know about. If you know what I mean. I don't.

It's definitely a box I'm happy to have recently opened but I can't see any way out of it

[tinyd]

On 01/07/2022 at 18:57, zbd1960 said:

...As a general rule, you tend to sharpen if the melodic line is ascending and flatten for descending...

As someone whose dot-reading is mainly walking bass lines this "rule" makes most sense to me as it makes the direction a bit more explicit.