I ❤️ Public Liability Insurance

[scalpy]

This topic often comes up on here so I thought I’d share an anecdote from one of this weekends gigs. Marquee gig, black tie event-so everyone thought they were better than everyone else, but the lining for the floor was not very level. Consequently the dance floor wasn’t either, which got wet with lots of spilt drinks and our PA columns, a HK elements in line set up, are a bit wobbly. We’ve had people swing from them like a strip club before so we looked at how to minimise the risk. Putting boards underneath them made them more wobbly if you stepped on them, and right out at the edges of the tent the ground was even more uneven. In a lose lose situation we decided to make them as obvious as possible by putting our lighting stands by them (on tripods), the same set up either side and hope for the best. 
 

We were on late and doing three sets, so by the time we got to our third set the crowd were plastered, trying to get onstage with us, drink was all over the dance floor and they were requesting any song they could think of, to be played at maximum volume whilst we grabbed a drink. My wife and I were just minding the stage when one gentlemen managed to lose his balance. The sequence of events was roughly- he falls into the edge of the stage of his own volition, keyboard with laptop goes over plus microphone, he puts his arm out and rolls off the stage into the PA column, toppling it and the lighting stand. 

Five minutes before the lighting stand would’ve sliced somebodies head open- it’s on of those bars with 4 LED digital par cans on. Somehow no one was hurt and nothing was broken but we would’ve had a very challenging situation on our hands if an accident had have happened. 
 

We will be be upping our cover, fastidiously updating our player list and checking renewal dates in the future- that was a seriously close call. 

 

[zbd1960]

Yes, PLI is a nuisance, but the situation you've outlined is why these days it's essential. Sounds like the marquee set-up was a bit amateurish.

[Nicko]

I'm not sure any amount of PLI would cover you having knowingly set up your kit in a situation that wasn't safe.

[Happy Jack]

My preferred solution would be to avoid gigs like that! 😂

[fretmeister]

24 minutes ago, Nicko said:

I'm not sure any amount of PLI would cover you having knowingly set up your kit in a situation that wasn't safe.

 

 

It's often not a 100% or 0% issue.

 

Split liability or contributory negligence is all part of the process.

[Nicko]

20 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

 

It's often not a 100% or 0% issue.

 

Split liability or contributory negligence is all part of the process.

True, but many policies will exclude gross negligence.  It's difficult to define the difference but committing an act with an appreciation of the risk and disregard for the consequence might be a starting point.

[fretmeister]

2 hours ago, Nicko said:

True, but many policies will exclude gross negligence.  It's difficult to define the difference but committing an act with an appreciation of the risk and disregard for the consequence might be a starting point.

 

From the OP's description the gear was in place and fine until the punter got involved. A bit wobbly doesn't mean negligence let alone gross negligence. If it satisfies the But For test for the involvement of the punter then the policy would be fine.

Edited July 11, 2022 by fretmeister

[Nicko]

35 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

 

From the OP's description the gear was in place and fine until the punter got involved. A bit wobbly doesn't mean negligence let alone negligence. If it satisfies the But For test for the involvement of the punter then the policy would be fine.

You may very well be right, but it's open to interpretation.  The OP states that they had identified a risk and were concerned enough about it to take some actions knowing that the actions were insufficient to mitigate the risk.  They had also foreseen potential actions of the punters as part of risk so I'm not sure the "but for" is applicable. Stating it as a "lose lose" situation and "hoping for the best" is pretty damning.

 

It's a minefield.  The only course of action that would have guaranteed safety would have been to refuse to set up until the organiser made the floor stable, but that would have risked the whole event, putting weights on the tripod bases, or to somehow tether the unstable kit to something.

[la bam]

I'm a big advocate of PLI.- always had it, always will, but you also have to fight your corner when people of their own choice get plastered out of control and injure themselves by their own stupid actions. In most cases it's nothing to do with the band/act, and how they have set up, but complete idiocy from members of the public. In which case it's fair enough to argue that point and only use PLI where argued against or necessary.

[Happy Jack]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

A bit wobbly doesn't mean negligence let alone negligence.

 

This is indubitably the case.

 

😉

[scalpy]

23 minutes ago, Nicko said:

You may very well be right, but it's open to interpretation.  The OP states that they had identified a risk and were concerned enough about it to take some actions knowing that the actions were insufficient to mitigate the risk.  They had also foreseen potential actions of the punters as part of risk so I'm not sure the "but for" is applicable. Stating it as a "lose lose" situation and "hoping for the best" is pretty damning.

 

It's a minefield.  The only course of action that would have guaranteed safety would have been to refuse to set up until the organiser made the floor stable, but that would have risked the whole event, putting weights on the tripod bases, or to somehow tether the unstable kit to something.

 

You're absolutely right and we're going to have to discuss how to tackle this in the future. We already ask for adequate power supply for example. The underlying issue if you pardon the pun was the ground the marquee was put up on- a farm in rural Herefordshire is never going to be billiard table smooth. The tent itself and the flooring was from a decent company. I don't know where the culpability would lie, so maybe another excuse to purchase the big FBT rig with giant subs I'm after- you'd have to be The Rock to tip those over. 

[Happy Jack]

8 minutes ago, scalpy said:

The underlying issue if you pardon the pun was the ground the marquee was put up on- a farm in rural Herefordshire is never going to be billiard table smooth. 

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I have just been talking about this ... were you using speakers on tripods or speakers on sub-woofers (i.e. boxes)? Even in a newly-ploughed field a decent tripod is a very stable thing.

 

[mybass]

If not already stated…….PLi is a good cover but the person(s) contracting you/us should also have it in place methinks. A bit like a recent gig when our band was asked to have Pat test certificates on our gear, my response was ‘as long as the client has everything Pat tested too’.

[scalpy]

Just now, Happy Jack said:

 

@Silvia Bluejay and I have just been talking about this ... were you using speakers on tripods or speakers on sub-woofers (i.e. boxes)? Even in a newly-ploughed field a decent tripod is a very stable thing.

 

The lights were on a tripod. Initially I thought it was the legs of those that tripped the guy up but several people who saw it more directly said he was just blind drunk and managed it all by himself. The PA arrangement is a one by ten sub that has two 8 by 3 columns plugged into it- an in-line array. They are light and compact so have a small footprint- hence a degree of instability. 

[Dad3353]

In circumstances where the Public could come a cropper, I would suggest having a barrier around the stage area would be advisable. These should be provided/set up by the organisers...

 

[Nicko]

7 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

In circumstances where the Public could come a cropper, I would suggest having a barrier around the stage area would be advisable. These should be provided/set up by the organisers...

 

I honesty thought the hoarding behind that stage said "dadband" 😀

[uk_lefty]

There's no way you can protect yourselves against the drunken stupidity of others. Even lashing black and yellow warning tape around every possible thing you don't want people to go near, let alone touch, won't stop a p!ssed up idiot. How far should a band go at these things? Have a burly mate in hi-viz acting as security? Dad's metal gates around the stage area (my guitarist would LOVE that!), or something else? I really don't know the answer but having seen so many drunks tumble over and cause near misses at gigs, and I don't gig anywhere near as regularly as a lot on here, there are serious accidents waiting to be caused with a band potentially in the cross hairs for a claim. Worrying stuff.

[Dad3353]

When I was doing concert work, either at the console or doing the lights, it was de rigueur to have the desk area bounded off by barriers of the sort above, to keep the area clear of unwanted interference. It worked very well, especially when the bands provoked  much animation from their public, and/or the drinks flowed freely. Similar protection for the stage area, if there was any chance of the Public getting out of hand. It's been a very long time since I've seen a lighting rig or PA tower come down. Just sayin'. 

[chris_b]

I'd insist on a barrier of some description separating the audience from the band. If anyone was "drunkenly trying to get on stage" I'd be stopping the show, telling them all to stay back and not restarting until they complied.  

[scalpy]

To be honest I've not thought of a function/party band like ours using a barrier. Another thing to negotiate!

[TimR]

I'd be looking at how easily it is to topple stuff over and have a real think about that. 

 

You now know that it can be toppled easily you need to prevent that happening in future. Even if it means buying different gear. A tripod only works if its legs are wide apart and the centre of gravity can't easily be moved outside the base of the legs. 

 

Having a sub that's only 12" Square then having tops on top doesn't sound stable at all in the first place. Maybe get the tops on tripods. 

 

Also sounds like the stage wasn't fit for purpose if it can be knocked enough to be moved.

 

Even more concerning is the lights are in a position that the punters can swing off them! Redesign your stage layout and put them somewhere else.

 

If someone legal asks you if you've had near misses in the past, you're in trouble.

[TimR]

Ultimately if the floor is awash with drinks, stop the show and get the organiser to clear the floor, stop people bringing their drinks on the dance area, let people cool it, and then restart. 

 

Drinks on dance floor should be a basic no no right from the off. Write that into your contract. 

 

We all get a bit carried away, but at some point someone has to take responsibility. Next thing will be someone pours their drink into the monitors. 

Edited July 11, 2022 by TimR

[NikNik]

I found, as a tech, corporate events are the worst for these kind of scenarios. Drunk suits getting onstage and falling off injuring themselves always brings out the H&S guys. I've seen sets collapsing, drink spilled over equipment, and rude, drunk people shouting at you that their white wine is warm, mistaking you for waiting staff. As a freelancer, I had PLI in place and the risk assessments I've seen for working in some venues look like Tolstoy's War and Peace.

 

I don't do corp gigs any more, TF!

Edited July 11, 2022 by NikNik

[petebassist]

You can pick up these cage things pretty cheaply, amazing...

 

 

Seriously though, glad to hear that your insurance company was able to help out.

[Rich]

3 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

In circumstances where the Public could come a cropper, I would suggest having a barrier around the stage area would be advisable. These should be provided/set up by the organisers...

 

 

Indeed. We've played a few Young Farmers' parties (always a scream) and college balls and so on in the past, and everything trip-overable and knock-downable has always been very securely fenced off or nailed down or both. Where there's a likelihood of high alcohol consumption by exuberant punters, I think it's the only way.