Can we please talk about Compressor attack times

[hamfist]

OK, I do appreciate this is a pretty nich topic, and I am a bit of a compression nerd, but in all my experience with compressors I have discovered that what I am personally looking for ultimately in a bass comp is one that lets my natural attack come through pretty much unaltered and then balances and adds some extra sustain to the decay of the sound. I find in the context of a band mix it makes me sound the same but just "better" and better integrated with the rest of the instruments.  For the purposes of completeness I will add that 98% of my playing is fingerstyle and the other 2% is with a pick. I never slap.

 

So ..... the essence of this thread is that I have found that I want an attack time of at least 70ms minimum (and for me, I am looking for this on lower frequencies, leaving the top end mostly untouched). I find anything less than 70ms just artificially affects my note attack. However, when I look at the attack times of some very successful and well-loved pedals such as the Empress (up to 50ms), Seymour Duncan (up to 27ms), MXR M87 (only 0.8ms !!!!)  etc. they simply don't offer those attack times.

 

A lot of comps seem to have fixed attack times or have adjustable attack times but do not quote the actual times (very frustrating).

 

I can't find definitive info on the Darkglass SS, Boss BC-1X, OE Cali 76, Markbass Compressore, Keeley Bassist etc.

 

Am I just weird or are there others like me ?    I think possibly a lot of bassists are just looking for limiting and not really "musical compression" as such, hence their appreciation of such quick attack times, which is what one is looking for in a limiter.

 

Really, the longer I play around with this stuff, the more I realise how different the effects we are looking for from our compression.

Edited July 21, 2022 by hamfist

[spyder]

I'm very much with you on this.

I also like a slow attack time and find most compressors don't offer enough or simply don't quote any figures so I can buy with confidence.

I also like a quick release.

That's why I've owned nearly every compressor pedal going and quickly sold them on. 

[Downunderwonder]

Trace Elliot maintained their hi low compressors had differing attack times solving the problem that no single compressor could do full range without making a mess of one end or the other.

[Osiris]

3 hours ago, hamfist said:

OK, I do appreciate this is a pretty nich topic, and I am a bit of a compression nerd, but in all my experience with compressors I have discovered that what I am personally looking for ultimately in a bass comp is one that lets my natural attack come through pretty much unaltered and then balances and adds some extra sustain to the decay of the sound. I find in the context of a band mix it makes me sound the same but just "better" and better integrated with the rest of the instruments.  For the purposes of completeness I will add that 98% of my playing is fingerstyle and the other 2% is with a pick. I never slap.

 

So ..... the essence of this thread is that I have found that I want an attack time of at least 70ms minimum (and for me, I am looking for this on lower frequencies, leaving the top end mostly untouched). I find anything less than 70ms just artificially affects my note attack. However, when I look at the attack times of some very successful and well-loved pedals such as the Empress (up to 50ms), Seymour Duncan (up to 27ms), MXR M87 (only 0.8ms !!!!)  etc. they simply don't offer those attack times.

 

A lot of comps seem to have fixed attack times or have adjustable attack times but do not quote the actual times (very frustrating).

 

I can't find definitive info on the Darkglass SS, Boss BC-1X, OE Cali 76, Markbass Compressore, Keeley Bassist etc.

 

Am I just weird or are there others like me ?    I think possibly a lot of bassists are just looking for limiting and not really "musical compression" as such, hence their appreciation of such quick attack times, which is what one is looking for in a limiter.

 

Really, the longer I play around with this stuff, the more I realise how different the effects we are looking for from our compression.

 

Have you tried either the TC Electronic Hyper Gravity or Spectracomp pedals? The free editing software for each pedal (as far as I'm aware, they're pretty much identical in terms of the firmware they use) has something like 48 individually editable parameters so there's a huge amount of customisation available, but whether you can configure the slow attack times you want...

 

But I'd suggest taking a look if only to rule them out. 

[hamfist]

2 hours ago, spyder said:

I'm very much with you on this.

I also like a slow attack time and find most compressors don't offer enough or simply don't quote any figures so I can buy with confidence.

I also like a quick release.

That's why I've owned nearly every compressor pedal going and quickly sold them on. 

 

Quick release - absolutely.  I'm with you there too.  So there are at least 2 of us loonies !

2 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Trace Elliot maintained their hi low compressors had differing attack times solving the problem that no single compressor could do full range without making a mess of one end or the other.

 

Interesting. I have used and liked the dual band comp on my old SMX trace. I do use multiband compression, so I shall have some experimentation with different attack times for different bands.

 

33 minutes ago, Osiris said:

 

Have you tried either the TC Electronic Hyper Gravity or Spectracomp pedals? The free editing software for each pedal (as far as I'm aware, they're pretty much identical in terms of the firmware they use) has something like 48 individually editable parameters so there's a huge amount of customisation available, but whether you can configure the slow attack times you want...

 

But I'd suggest taking a look if only to rule them out. 

 

Already there. I use a Hypergravity. Mujltiband and uber-configurable. Completely designed for a compression fusspot like myself. Attack times up to 100ms are available.

[jimfist]

2 hours ago, hamfist said:

Quick release - absolutely.  I'm with you there too.  So there are at least 2 of us loonies !

 

Make that 3 of us! From one "fist" to another (Jim-to-Ham), what you've described is exactly what I go for in compression.

I agree that far too many pedals just don't accommodate slower attack times.

I went through the Spectracomp, and the Hypergravity is definitely more hands-on friendly.

Recently I got the Source Audio Atlas and am really liking the results.

Since the Atlas has 3 onboard preset switches, I was able to dial in presets for each of my gigging basses (the Atlas also has EQ).

I did need to fuss with the settings in the Atlas software editor to get what I like, naturally.

I play equally with pick and fingers (slapping a rarity these days), and the slow attack is really key for pick playing IMO.

[hamfist]

2 hours ago, jimfist said:

 

Make that 3 of us! From one "fist" to another (Jim-to-Ham), what you've described is exactly what I go for in compression.

I agree that far too many pedals just don't accommodate slower attack times.

I went through the Spectracomp, and the Hypergravity is definitely more hands-on friendly.

Recently I got the Source Audio Atlas and am really liking the results.

Since the Atlas has 3 onboard preset switches, I was able to dial in presets for each of my gigging basses (the Atlas also has EQ).

I did need to fuss with the settings in the Atlas software editor to get what I like, naturally.

I play equally with pick and fingers (slapping a rarity these days), and the slow attack is really key for pick playing IMO.

 

Have you experimented with different attack times for different frequency ranges ?

[WinterMute]

I won't use a compressor with a fixed attack or release time, or any form of auto functionality on the units I do use. 

 

Every time I employ compression or limiting, it will need to be tailored to the specific dynamics of the instrument involved, the playing style and the requirement of the instrument in the production, it's a variable control for a reason.

 

Also see different types of compression/limiting circuit for different approaches, optical vs solid state vs valve for instance...

 

Plug-ins that pretend to model optical envelopes are a particular bugbear, as many don't.

[Daz39]

Becos comp do 3 (4?) compressors: at least 2 of them have attack knobs (they are very knobby)

[jimfist]

4 hours ago, hamfist said:

 

Have you experimented with different attack times for different frequency ranges ?

 

Yes, at different times for different things. I don't do much recording these days, and that's when I'd be focusing on such things.

For my gigging rig, I prefer not to go too far down the rabbit hole of adjusting parameters.

If I can't get where I need to be by simple adjustment to threshold, ratio, attack, release, and blend/mix, then I'm likely to move on.

When I do find a compressor that scratches that itch, I usually leave well enough alone. 

[51m0n]

If you sidechain filter you might find you can get a sound that works for you with somewhat faster attack times. 

 

For an always on compressor I like anything from 30 to 70ms attack time and a short release too.

[Boodang]

Definitely a slow attack time! There's an interesting comparison between the Diamond and Doc Lloyd (photon death ray) compressors where the slower attack time on the latter is more suited bass. Unless your limiting I think the slower times give space for the loss notes to bloom.

...loss notes should read low notes!...

Edited July 24, 2022 by Boodang

[jimfist]

11 hours ago, Boodang said:

Unless your limiting I think the slower times give space for the loss notes to bloom.

Exactly this 

[Bolo]

I think you're too hung up on the numbers. Only 70ms or longer works? That's just really odd, more so because you apparently are not confident in your ability to hear the difference. Horses for courses I guess.

 

For me compression is about catching the peaks and bringing them in line for fuller, steadier notes. The bass has plenty of sustain so there's no need to lift the noise floor there. Because I'm not limiting, the leading edge of the tone is not squashed at all just reined in.

Fast attack and reasonably fast release for me.

[Baloney Balderdash]

TC Electronic SpectraComp ! (if you want more physical controls available you can just get the regular big version of the Hypergravity pedal instead, which utilizes the exact same compression engine/algorithms, and their respective Toneprint editors are completely identical too, just for some totally lame reason TC Electronic chose to not make it possible to use the premade artist and template Toneprints for the SpectraComp on the Hypergravity or the other way around for that matter, though as, as I'll explain later, you would want to dial in your own custom Toneprint anyway this doesn't really matter at all).

 

All you ask for and way more, as long as you are willing to do the work and take the time required to dial in your own custom Toneprint using the Toneprint editor.

 

This compressor really allows you to customize you compression exactly as you like it, to fit perfectly with your personal preferences for any thinkable application.

 

3 band's (that is dividing your signal into a bass/low frequency band, a mid frequency band, and a treble/high frequency band) with freely adjustable crossover for each of them, volume of each of these bands individually (technically this would be compression makeup gain for the 3 bands respectively, but it can be utilized as a way to shape/balance your tone as well), individual parallel clean blend for each of the 3 bands respectively as well, and each band with their own individual full set of freely adjustable compression parameters.

 

Note though that I personally didn't like any of the premade artist or template Toneprints, but taking the time to dial in the settings exactly to my liking in the Toneprint editor gave me exactly what I was looking for, which is why I pointed out that this would be a requirement for really making this pedal useful, but then it is not only just useful but absolute perfection.

 

As transparent or prominent as you like it, and if you wish, but only if you wish so, a very powerful Toneshaping tool too, and any and as many of the parameters available in the Toneprint editor can be assigned to be controlled in whichever way you like to whatever physical knob on the pedal you wish (that is if you get the Hupergravity pedal, the SpectraComp really only got one physical control knob, though that one knob of course can be assigned however you wish too).

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[bassmayhem]

I always use a compressor with parallel options, where I sum an uncompressed signal with a "heavily squished" to get airyness, dynamics and attack as well as a full bodied tone.

[jimfist]

The TC Spectracomp and Hypergravity are truly modern marvels of engineering, to be able to cram so much function into a pedal format, typically only found in modern plug-ins and old-school, expensive rack gear.

The ability to have a true, fully featured, 3-band multi-compressor with programmable knobs for control for relatively dirt cheap cost is just ridiculous.

I'm a huge, huge fan of what TC has done here, and have owned the Spectracomp.

[The Source Audio Atlas, which I'm currently enjoying, is in the same category as the TC multi-comps, being full-featured in slightly different ways (dual inputs/outputs, various internal routing configurations, etc.)]

 

But the strength of these pedals for power users (the vast tweak-ability & tons of parameters to mess with) is perhaps its biggest hurdle amongst those who are new to compression and/of somewhat vexed by it.

It takes a lot of time, trial-and-error, and real world, in-context experience to know how to adjust a 3-band multi-comp to yield desired results.

The vast majority of bassists, IMO, have their hands full with the endless adjustments available to them from a "simple" comp that has input, threshold, ratio, attack, release, and blend.

This is why I think the toneprints make a lot of sense. Even though I'm pretty comfortable with multi-band comps, I'd still prefer to not have to do too much of a deep dive just to get a comp setting that works for me.

I'd much prefer to have a comp/limiter that has what I want already "baked in". The problem there is that you can spend years and tons of money auditioning comp pedals until you find THE ONE that fits the bill.

...quite the dilemma...

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by jimfist

[Simon C]

The Hypergravity for me too.  I’m not quite sure where the attack is set on mine, but I was fairly confident that I’d find most compressors on the market somewhat limiting (1st gear pun of the day).  Anyway in case anyone is interested in the process I went through to set mine up:

 

 

Hopefully the link works.  It’s the 1st time I have tried to do it.