PA Recommendations

[StingRayBoy42]

I'd probably want a monitor if I was singing.

IEMs might be worth looking into - I got some KZ ZS10 pros and a Behringer Powerplay P2 for much cheapness and they do the job.

Also look at the Behringer Eurolive B205D (Mackie, Subzero, Thomann and a few other makes do a similar thing) - tiny speaker with lots of poke.

 

[BassBunny]

In answer to the question, " do you think one of the tower PA systems will be man enough for the job?"

The answer is yes. Before the band broke up we used a pair of LD Systems Maui11 for about 5 years. 6 piece band with keyboards and sequenced brass. They were awesome. We actually used just one of them on a gig in a large function room. Occasionally put kick/overhead drums through it but mainly 4 Vox and Keyboards all the time. Sax and Trumpet when we went up to an 8 piece.

Just sold them to a local 4 piece who are made up with them and sold their Mackie's on the strength of it.

Light, Loud and so easy to carry and set up.

Current 10 piece use a hired in PA company when needed but I would go back to a line array any day of the week if needed.

Singer uses an RCF Evox for his Solo work.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by BassBunny

[acidbass]

23 minutes ago, StingRayBoy42 said:

IEMs might be worth looking into - I got some KZ ZS10 pros and a Behringer Powerplay P2 for much cheapness and they do the job.

This is the setup I use in my pub band for monitoring and I recommend it highly.  I also use backline.

[Dan Dare]

As with most things, budget is the governing factor. The mini line array plus sub(s) type rigs are certainly up to the job, but the better ones - LD Systems, Fohhn (which I have), HK Elements and similar - are not cheap . If you are on a tight budget, I'd go for conventional PA cabs. I don't like to put large cabs (12s or 15s) up on stands. They block the view of the band and are usually heavy. In the average pub, a couple of 10+horn boxes on stands with sub(s) on the floor is much more effective.

 

If you are playing mainly in pubs, you're unlikely to need to run the bass and kit through the PA entirely. I usually put a small amount of bass, kick and perhaps a couple of overheads in the PA to augment the sound from the stage a little. It also means you can use compact backline and keep levels on stage sensible.

 

You can get by - sort of - without monitors, but they make life a lot easier. Those at the back of the stage, especially drummers, really need some form of monitoring as they are unlikely to be able to hear anything from the PA. IEMs are probably the most convenient option, but if you use wedges, you don't want large bass drivers. A lot of low end in monitors often causes issues. 10s are fine in my experience.

[Nicko]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

I saw a "Bowie tribute seeks a new Bowie", which I thought was amusing.

But the singer having their own PA, not so unusual. Dave Lee Roth got into Van Halen as he had a PA, and I believe Ozzie did too.

Frankly, without a singer, who needs a PA?

Ozzy was in Van Halen????????

 

I agree though.  The PA is the singers responsibility.  I've been stung getting involved in buying a PA as a band when it really wasn't anything I wanted to be responsible for.  When the band broke we had to sell it to the singer at a big loss.

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Ozzy was in Van Halen????????

 

Yeh, didnt' work out so well so everyone agreed to forget about it.

 

4 minutes ago, Nicko said:

I agree though.  The PA is the singers responsibility. 

 

It should be - in my group it is mine, and I am not sure why, but it is at the moment. However, I wouldn't be interested in a 'share' of a PA, that doesn't seem like it would work out well.

[Woodinblack]

57 minutes ago, StingRayBoy42 said:

IEMs might be worth looking into - I got some KZ ZS10 pros and a Behringer Powerplay P2 for much cheapness and they do the job.

 

the drummer uses my powerplay p2 (as he isn't moving) and I have an XVive iem - all works well for us.

[Dan Dare]

1 minute ago, Nicko said:

The PA is the singers responsibility.  I've been stung getting involved in buying a PA as a band when it really wasn't anything I wanted to be responsible for.  When the band broke we had to sell it to the singer at a big loss.

 

The best way to buy a PA is for individual band members to own parts of it - one person buys the mixer, another a cab, another a sub and so on. Then if you split or someone leaves, you don't have to sell the whole thing (usually at a big loss as you point out). Everyone (or the person leaving if the band isn't splitting entirely) just takes their bit with them.

 

I have to disagree that a PA is the singer's responsibility. No vocals/lousy vocal sound = no work, so the entire band benefits from the PA and should contribute. A decent PA usually costs a lot more than the average instrument plus backline. The degree to which each person contributes can be negotiated.

[Paul S]

Documented elsewhere, my blues/rock trio use a pair of RCF EVOX 8 units.  2 x vox, bass always go through, sometimes the kick drum, sometimes the whole kit.  Guitarist is convinced he loses tone when he puts it rhough (he doesn't) so just uses his combo  Maybe @Al Krowhas the link to hand as he expressed an interest at one point and came to see them in action.    For the small pubs we play the units are coasting.  We used them outside a couple of times and there was still plenty in the tank.  I can't imagine needing anything more - anywhere larger and we go through a house pa.  You can place them behind you and they don't feedback (they really don't - sometimes in some venues there is a little squeal from a certain frequency but this is tamed by adjusting the eq.  Just like it would anywhere with any set up) so we don't need to use monitors.  But, most importantly they sound frantastic - everything sparkling and crystal clear.  For our band getting these was a quantum jump in our sound quality, plus they represent the quickest set up/break down of any pa I've had experience of. 

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I saw a "Bowie tribute seeks a new Bowie", which I thought was amusing.

But the singer having their own PA, not so unusual. Dave Lee Roth got into Van Halen as he had a PA, and I believe Ozzie did too.

Frankly, without a singer, who needs a PA?

 

It's no longer the 60s, 70s or even the 80s, and these days the only bands who need their own PA are those playing covers in pubs.

 

On the originals circuit any venue putting on bands on a regular basis have their own in-house system. The only time in the last 30 years that I have played originals somewhere that didn't have an in-house PA system (and we needed to hire one in) was when the band in question deliberately chose to play a venue that didn't normally put on live music.

[Lozz196]

4 hours ago, Buddster said:

I once saw an advert for a band 

 

"singer wanted, must have own PA" 

 

4 hours ago, Happy Jack said:

That's right up there with "Queen Tribute seeks Freddie Mercury".

 

Yep, some things are very unlikely in this world, the above  def being two of them

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

It's no longer the 60s, 70s or even the 80s, and these days the only bands who need their own PA are those playing covers in pubs.

 

Round these parts, there is just pubs, village halls and community centres, so originals or covers, you have a PA or you are very quiet!

[Nail Soup]

In my experience monitoring is important.... helps the singer sing well and in tune if they can hear themselves. Even more so if there are backing vocals. 

[casapete]

6 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

It's no longer the 60s, 70s or even the 80s, and these days the only bands who need their own PA are those playing covers in pubs.

 

On the originals circuit any venue putting on bands on a regular basis have their own in-house system. The only time in the last 30 years that I have played originals somewhere that didn't have an in-house PA system (and we needed to hire one in) was when the band in question deliberately chose to play a venue that didn't normally put on live music.

I would add that most function bands use their own PA’s, unless they are only doing huge events

at large / unusual venues where there may be a hired rig available.

In my 15 years of playing the function circuit this only happened a handful of times.

[steantval]

12 hours ago, Buddster said:

I once saw an advert for a band 

 

"singer wanted, must have own PA" 

I don’t really see anything unusual about that.

I have invested serious money into my bass rig and bass guitar, the guitarist similar, one of his guitars was over 4k and the drummer has a top end kit.

Why should a vocalist just be expected to only invest a few hundred quid in a decent mike and a stand.

In our current band the vocalist owns his own P.A.

[Dan Dare]

7 hours ago, steantval said:

I don’t really see anything unusual about that.

I have invested serious money into my bass rig and bass guitar, the guitarist similar, one of his guitars was over 4k and the drummer has a top end kit.

Why should a vocalist just be expected to only invest a few hundred quid in a decent mike and a stand.

In our current band the vocalist owns his own P.A.

 

Depends on what the PA consists of. If it is only used by the singer, you may have a point, but what happens when you add things like monitoring that you use/benefit from? How about BVs?

 

Like it or not, the most important things in any band are the vocals and drums. If they are not on the money, it doesn't matter that the guitar player has £4k worth of instrument or how good the rest of the band is.

 

A quality PA is expensive. Mine cost three times what I spent on my instrument and backline.

[Dan Dare]

11 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

In my experience monitoring is important.... helps the singer sing well and in tune if they can hear themselves. Even more so if there are backing vocals. 

 

Absolutely. It also keeps the whole band tight if they can hear one another properly.

[police squad]

I've been using QSC K12 x 2 and when needed 2 x Ksub. Allen and heath zed fx desks. The desk makes a big difference to the sound too. I've used this gear for over 8 years now. It's awesome.

For a monitor, my duo uses the behringer b205. works a treat. I listen to the FOH mix through it. It helps us know that the FOH sound is balanced.

When we go out as a full band (with bass and drums) I use a wharfedale evp 12 inch powered monitor. Again with the FOH sound in it. On stage volumes are low, guitar is a vox tonelab pedal into the desk, bass is bergantino head, 2 x cabs but low volume on stage. It works very well like this, for us anyway.

Having a monitor has been the best thing to improve my singing, I can focus on pitch more than ever now.

[lemmywinks]

We had a band reshuffle and ended up with a serious downgrade in PA - from a pair of RCF 725 tops with two RCF subs to some cheap Alto powered cabs with a single Alto sub. We put everyone through the PA and all use IEMs so I was really worried about how capable it would be, however our first gig with it was a large function room and it sounded great. We had a chat afterwards and moved an expensive PA upgrade down the list of priorietes, it's still going to happen but the cheap Alto stuff is more than good enough and very compact. In short - modern lightweight, cheap kit is absolutely fine for a full band PA if you're limited on storage space and budget.

 

Although some people have said you don't need to put a kick through the PA in pubs/smaller venues we always do, not for volume but to give it some thump. Acoustically all kick drums sound like a damp trouser accident in comparison to when you give them a little bit of eq, half the battle is getting drummers to keep the acoustic volume down so you can make them sound better out front.

 

 

Obviously get monitors, relying on hearing vocals/whatever else over the PA is not going to work in every situation and if you gig a variety of venue sizes you'll get caught with your pants down sooner or later..

Edited July 30, 2022 by lemmywinks

[Steve Browning]

25 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

We had a band reshuffle and ended up with a serious downgrade in PA - from a pair of RCF 725 tops with two RCF subs to some cheap Alto powered cabs with a single Alto sub. We put everyone through the PA and all use IEMs so I was really worried about how capable it would be, however our first gig with it was a large function room and it sounded great. We had a chat afterwards and moved an expensive PA upgrade down the list of priorietes, it's still going to happen but the cheap Alto stuff is more than good enough and very compact. In short - modern lightweight, cheap kit is absolutely fine for a full band PA if you're limited on storage space and budget.

 

Although some people have said you don't need to put a kick through the PA in pubs/smaller venues we always do, not for volume but to give it some thump. Acoustically all kick drums sound like a damp trouser accident in comparison to when you give them a little bit of eq, half the battle is getting drummers to keep the acoustic volume down so you can make them sound better out front.

 

 

Obviously get monitors, relying on hearing vocals/whatever else over the PA is not going to work in every situation and if you gig a variety of venue sizes you'll get caught with your pants down sooner or later..

My band using Alto tops and a single sub and are also very happy. We have two 10" Alto cabs for monitors and quite often use them as side fills, rather than wedges. We put vocals, keys and backline through (foh) and keep the onstage volume down. The drummer says he can hear the monitoring in whichever configuration we have it. We have gone without monitoring if the space is small and can do that just as easily. We tend to do solos etc 'on the nod' and so the drummer can follow things. The basic arrangement stays the same.

Edited July 30, 2022 by Steve Browning

[Happy Jack]

34 minutes ago, lemmywinks said:

... half the battle is getting drummers to keep the acoustic volume down so you can make them sound better out front.

 

Troo dat, but with many drummers that's absolutely a losing battle.

 

I'M JUST TICKLING 'EM!!!

[Al Krow]

On 29/07/2022 at 06:47, Dan Dare said:

Like it or not, the most important things in any band are the vocals and drums. 

 

I mean, certainly they are important and can't deny that both my covers bands are built around the vocalists. 

 

But IMO for a full band the guitar (and / or keys) and bass are just as important for filling out and providing a great overall sound. 

 

How often do we ever see just drums and vocals (ie pretty much never in my experience) vs just a guitar plus vocals (very common)? 

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by Al Krow

[Dan Dare]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

I mean, certainly they are important and can't deny that both my covers bands are built around the vocalists. 

 

But IMO for a full band the guitar (and / or keys) and bass are just as important for filling out and providing a great overall sound. 

 

How often do we ever see just drums and vocals (ie pretty much never in my experience) vs just a guitar plus vocals (very common)? 

 

 

I didn't say the other instruments were completely unimportant. I said that if the vocals and drums aren't right, it doesn't matter how good the rest of the band is. Leaving aside instrumental jazz combos and similar. most bands play songs. Ergo, the vocals are of primary importance, followed by the drums. Provided the rest of the band is competent, all will be well (there's a lot of truth in the saying 'good drummer = good band, poor drummer = poor band').

 

If the vocals or timing is suspect, it's pretty much game over. Most audiences won't care that the guitar or keyboard players are wizards if the singer is inaudible or out of tune or if the drummer is destroying the groove (try dancing to that).

 

Your last question is a little silly. Neither is a band.

[Owen]

If I was going out to buy a PA system for a band, I would be going IEM for monitors. You can spend gazillions and it will sound lush, but you will also get properly workable solutions with a pair of hard wired multidriver non moulded jobs earphones with a Behringer headphone amp. This means that each member can carry their own foldback. Shifting wedges around just adds to the schlepp factor and is really not great. It also means that you can limit stage volume so that your FOH just has to fight Guitarmaggedon rather than overcoming the combined output of 2 or wedges as well as backline. It is a MUCH better outcome for the audience. 

 

 

[Owen]

On 27/07/2022 at 14:38, itu said:

Our set consists of a small wireless mixer U24i and big PRX735 speakers. There are mixers that have less and lower quality channels in the product family but you can never have too many channels. Wireless is the thing: anyone with the password and a phone or a tablet can mix.

You can never have too many channels, but you can NEVER have too many aux sends. There has not been too much talk of mixers on this thread, but FWIW I cannot think of a single reason to not buy a decent digital wireless desk. With the right system, everyone can be dealing with their own monitor feed which is a huge weight off whoever gets landed with running things. All the sends are saved, you get consistency from gig to gig. There are so many reasons to do it from the beginning of the buying process. People will whinge endlessly, saying "it's not the same". But if you can banish backline then what the audience hears is SOOOOOOO much better. Obv, this is several steps down the line, but getting a capable digital desk from the outset makes that an easy option. I believe RCF ones even have amp plugins on specific channels. I can get quite passionate about this stuff. 

 

And less chance of hearing damage.