I just discovered Joni Mitchell. With Jaco.

[Dad3353]

3 minutes ago, BassTractor said:

 

Hm. I thought he started a bit weakly, but got a lot better when he came to
"And achieve it all with music that came quickly from afar,
Then taste the fruit of man recorded losing all against the hour
And assessing points to nowhere, leading every single one".

 

That might have passed, but the badly-performed Pachelbel motifs really grated, I found.  I agree with the decision taken to end it, but found it a bit harsh, just the same. 

[BassTractor]

11 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

just the same 

Aw, you elegantly, beautifully brought it back to "Free Hand" by Gentle Giant  ("Just the Same" being its opening track). 😃
As to the talent show, I have no idea how scripted this was, but at any rate: you just don't kill a decent instrument (if that's what it was, and not a stage prop), and you don't treat people this way.

Edit:

Sorry! In my mind we were in the "Tried listening to Yes thread" - hence my last two posts.

Edited August 4, 2022 by BassTractor

[nekomatic]

22 hours ago, BassTractor said:

At the same time I'm saddened by Joni's apparent need to defend her chord progressions (supposedly after criticism by unknown sources) by means of arguments from authority (Yeah, but <name musician> says my chords are "interesting" so these people who are negative should ... ), as if <name musician> wasn't just being kind and polite after shaking his head in disbelief.
In this she also effectively tells her audience that if you can hear weaknesses she can't hear, then it's you who has the problem. Er ... no, Joni. We all do our best within the limitations of our resources, and so do you.

 

Wait, what? There are people who reckon they know better than Joni Mitchell about what chord progressions she should have used? Can someone give me an example? 

 

Quote

her sense of continuing musical lines so they never seem to stop

 

See, for me this is exactly what makes songs like Coyote brilliant, and it's exactly the chord progression she chooses that makes it possible. If someone's concept of music theory tells them that's wrong, it's not Coyote that needs changing to suit, it's their concept of music theory.

[TKenrick]

1 hour ago, nekomatic said:

 

Wait, what? There are people who reckon they know better than Joni Mitchell about what chord progressions she should have used? Can someone give me an example?

 

I remember watching an interview in which Joni said that Wayne Shorter had a problem with a chord progression that was almost entirely sus chords; she said that she wanted it to reflect the unresolved tension in her life, or something similar.

 

On a separate note, part of the reason for Joni hiring Jaco was that she wanted a bassist who would play something other than the root - he certainly fulfilled his job description 😂

[BassTractor]

37 minutes ago, nekomatic said:

 

Wait, what? There are people who reckon they know better than Joni Mitchell about what chord progressions she should have used? Can someone give me an example? 

 

In several documentaries and interviews, the criticism was referred to, but not quantified further. Sadly I have no idea who these people are, and can't give an example, but Joni has certainly felt the need to defend herself, and this has been a theme throughout her career. 

Of course there are people who not only reckon they know better than Joni, but also do in fact know better. It's just how the world is, unless of course Joni is the exact one person who knows best, and for example knows better than Herbie Hancock (whom I suspect is that name musician) or Krzysztof Penderecki to name but a few.
I'm not saying these two people are examples of people who are always right, but I can say Joni can't explain her chords to them whilst they can explain her chords to her, they can explain why the well-developed musical ear responds as it does, and how she could've reached her musical aims more efficiently with a changed chord here and there.
I think this should not surprise anyone at all, but your wording seems to indicate it does surprise. Maybe I misunderstand.

 

37 minutes ago, nekomatic said:

See, for me this is exactly what makes songs like Coyote brilliant, and it's exactly the chord progression she chooses that makes it possible. If someone's concept of music theory tells them that's wrong, it's not Coyote that needs changing to suit, it's their concept of music theory.

Yeah, but then again, I'm not aware of anyone having said Coyote is formally weak, or contains a chord that could've been exchanged with one that more firmly supported what she was aiming for. We don't wanna risk straw man argument territory, do we?

In what I've seen of this, Joni defended herself against unknown claims of unknown scope, and instead of either relaxing or using formal arguments she used a highly flawed argument from authority. I was saddened twice, so to speak: both long-time, by seeing this has gone on for five decades, and by seeing her seemingly being oblivious to the actual content in the reaction she got from this musician.
My point is that, while I basically agree with the formal side of it (not being that critical myself, that is), she'd probably be served by recognising she isn't perfect and does not need to be - especially since she's an artist with a large body of highly respected work. Of course it's her life experience and her choices, not mine.

We can still love her music, as do I and apparently as do you.

As a side note, if she were to decide to take teachings from say Herbie Hancock, this does not mean she will stop making Joni music or become one of the slick guys I dislike. Music theory doesn't work like that. Hancock would teach her to write Joni music even better, potentially giving even greater musical joy to the listener.

As to your last sentence, no: highly gifted, highly educated people like for example Herbie Hancock do not need to change their concept of music theory. There is no need this type of people be zealously subsurvient the moment Joni's name is mentioned. She is not above everyone.
 

[nekomatic]

I certainly don't place Mitchell beyond criticism, but I find it hard to comment further without knowing a bit more about the supposed problem. Mitchell and Hancock have a musical relationship going back decades that includes Hancock choosing to record an entire album of Mitchell's songs, so I find it hard to picture him 'being kind and polite after shaking his head in disbelief' - he doesn't need to have anything to do with her music if he doesn't want to, so I have to assume he likes and respects it (if anything, for me his reinterpretations on that album are a bit too respectful of the originals).

 

On the other hand, I don't find it hard to imagine some guitarist or rock critic trying to be controversial by claiming Mitchell's use of harmony is deficient in some way, and in that case, I completely agree that it's a shame if she was thin-skinned enough that felt she had to respond to it. But great artists don't always have perfect personalities.