Tinted finish chipped on bass body - repair options?

[Mottlefeeder]

I parked the car on a slope, opened the boot and failed to catch the bass as it slid out. It landed on the thinnest bit of padding in the gig bag.

 

The finish chipped down to bare wood, with one crater on the edge of the top/side, and the other on the edge of the top/side/base, The left hand crater is about 15mm long at the bottom. The craters have sloping edges, making the finish look deeper than it is (about 1mm).

I made some enquiries and one luthier declined the job, and one quoted £175. Going to Allparts for Gluboost would cost £50-£70 for a range of colour additives and some glue, so I thought I'd look for some alternatives locally. 

 

Hobbycraft have a transparent PVA glue and some water based transparent colours so I thought I'd have a go, mixing the colours on a transparent film so that I could see them against the wood.

 

I painted the damaged are with PVA to seal it, and left it to dry. Then I mixed some mid brown with some red and got a surprisingly good match. I mixed that with some glue and painted it on. This is how it looked when it dried.

 

This is the crater with about 6 coats of PVA over the tinted coat. I'm getting there, but it is a slow process, partly limited by the risk of the glue dripping if I put it on too thickly.

 

And finally, my question - If I changed horses in mid stream, would Gluboost complete the job faster, or would it also drip off the edge?

 

David

 

[Eric.C.Lapton]

I’d have left it, that’s the mojo breaking out 

[BlueMoon]

It's a bummer when things like this happen. I feel for you.

 

I salute you for having a go at a cost effective repair. A totally invisible repair will be tough to achieve, because you will know that it is always there! 

 

It looks like a repair to a Hohner "cricket bat" bass, which is in Walnut satin stain........correct?

 

If it's a solid colour, you can build up using a layering technique within the depression and then use a final matching coat to bring it up to the same fill level with a final sanding. I've not used PVA as a filler in such cases, so cannot comment specifically on its use. Feathered edges will be easier to mask than a precise repair line, but feathering normally requires blending with the undamaged surrounding surface. I'd understand that you want to  try to keep the repair area as small as possible. Switching to another filler is possible as long as there are no adverse interactions between the two systems. (Do a test on a spare piece of wood). Perhaps the most important advice is use many thin layers versus a few thick/fast layers.

 

Good luck.

 

 

[Maude]

My worry would be flatting and polishing the glue once dry. Most PVAs dry very rubbery. 

How does it feel at the moment, very hard or soft and rubbery? 

[Mottlefeeder]

@Eric.C.Lapton - I think we differ on 'Mojo'. To me it means natural wear and minor dents on a loved and cared-for instrument, not ugly scars like this. YMMV.

@BlueMoon - yes, it's a Hohner cricket bat in walnut satin stain. The colouring I used was transparent, so the grain still shows through, so the only outstanding issue is filling the hole, flatting and polishing. I accept that it will still be visible, but hopefully will look a lot better than it currently does.

@Maude- I've just put on the next coat, so I can't answer that question. I've also put some glue on a bit of plywood to check how hard it sets, and whether I can sand it. I'll report back tomorrow.

 

Thank you all for your input

 

David

 

[Maude]

The colour looks like a fairly decent match. As you say, it won't be invisible, but it'll go a long way to taking your eye off it. 

[Mottlefeeder]

Put some glue on a piece of plywood yesterday evening. It seemes hard this morning so I started sanding it. It didn't smear or crumb  so I thought I had a winner. Got as far as 1000 grade paper - still looking good. Then I wet the abrasive paper, and the dried glue became tacky.

I'll leave it for another 24 hrs to rule out 'glue still not set', and if it goes tacky again, then I need to be looking for a different top layer.

 

David

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

I've successfully used poundland superglue as an infill for finish chips like this. That was on a black instrument so I used black permanent marker to touch up the missing colour first.

[Baloney Balderdash]

3 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

Put some glue on a piece of plywood yesterday evening. It seemes hard this morning so I started sanding it. It didn't smear or crumb  so I thought I had a winner. Got as far as 1000 grade paper - still looking good. Then I wet the abrasive paper, and the dried glue became tacky.

I'll leave it for another 24 hrs to rule out 'glue still not set', and if it goes tacky again, then I need to be looking for a different top layer.

 

David

 

It might be due to the paint you used being water based, meaning that it will dissolve in water, and at least you ought to have checked up on the glue you used weren't before you went to great length applying several layers.

 

Not that I personally couldn't have done the exact same mistake, in fact chances are I would, as I constantly find myself doing haphazard hack handyman jobs, because I often start on stuff rather impulsively  wanting to have something fixed as quick as possible and therefor end up using less than ideal tools and materials, whatever is available at that point in time, and fail to check properly up on things first to make sure I do it properly, and have in fact ended up ruining a couple of instruments that way.

 

Just saying. 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Mottlefeeder]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

 

It might be due to the paint you used being water based, meaning that it will dissolve in water, and at least you ought to have checked up on the glue you used weren't before you went to great length applying several layers.

 

Not that I personally couldn't have done the exact same mistake, in fact chances are I would, as I constantly find myself doing haphazard hack handyman jobs, because I often start on stuff rather impulsively  wanting to have something fixed as quick as possible and therefor end up using less than ideal tools and materials, whatever is available at that point in time, and fail to check properly up on things first to make sure I do it properly, and have in fact ended up ruining a couple of instruments that way.

 

Just saying. 

 

 

PVA is water based, so a water soluble colour tint should be compatible with it.

Also, the glue is listed as being washable, which I assumed meant waterproof. That may have been my mistake.

David

[Baloney Balderdash]

On 09/08/2022 at 19:59, Mottlefeeder said:

PVA is water based, so a water soluble colour tint should be compatible with it.

Also, the glue is listed as being washable, which I assumed meant waterproof. That may have been my mistake.

David

 

I assume washable means you are able to wash it off, not that it is water proof/resistant, not many people actually wash glue, except for when trying to get it off somewhere where it is unwanted. 

 

If it is water based then there is a big chance it will also dissolve in water once it is dry, as that is how it works as a glue in the first place, being water based.

 

What that means is that the active ingredient, the actual active adhesive/gluing agent dissolves in water, which is what makes it fluent and useable/applicable, then once it is out of its air and water tight flask and has been applied to a surface the water will start to evaporates again which in turn will cause the adhesive/gluing agent to bond as it gradually dries and cures accordingly, which though also means that water is likely to be able to dissolve the gluing agent once again if applied after the curing/bonding process has taken place, unless some kind of more complex chemical process is going on in the bonding/curing process, which might be totally possible, and will be in some cases, though not most commonly, and obviously not the case here either from what you tell happened when applying water.

 

And the same applies to water based colors.

 

To sum up: It being able to dissolve in water is what makes it actually work as a glue or a color, and that is exactly what water based means.

 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[tauzero]

On 08/08/2022 at 22:16, Mottlefeeder said:

@Eric.C.Lapton - I think we differ on 'Mojo'. To me it means natural wear and minor dents on a loved and cared-for instrument, not ugly scars like this. YMMV.

@BlueMoon - yes, it's a Hohner cricket bat in walnut satin stain. The colouring I used was transparent, so the grain still shows through, so the only outstanding issue is filling the hole, flatting and polishing. I accept that it will still be visible, but hopefully will look a lot better than it currently does.

@Maude- I've just put on the next coat, so I can't answer that question. I've also put some glue on a bit of plywood to check how hard it sets, and whether I can sand it. I'll report back tomorrow.

 

Thank you all for your input

 

David

 

 

I'll be very interested to see how this turns out as I have a Hohner cricket bat with a bit of chipping around the bridge end corners. The fix that was mentioned to me (but I can't remember who by) was superglue and colouring, I think the PVA looks a good way to go.

[tauzero]

On 09/08/2022 at 14:01, Mottlefeeder said:

Put some glue on a piece of plywood yesterday evening. It seemes hard this morning so I started sanding it. It didn't smear or crumb  so I thought I had a winner. Got as far as 1000 grade paper - still looking good. Then I wet the abrasive paper, and the dried glue became tacky.

I'll leave it for another 24 hrs to rule out 'glue still not set', and if it goes tacky again, then I need to be looking for a different top layer.

 

David

 

I found this https://sawview.com/what-is-pva-glue/ which says it takes 24 hours to dry perfectly.

[Mottlefeeder]

7 minutes ago, tauzero said:

 

I found this https://sawview.com/what-is-pva-glue/ which says it takes 24 hours to dry perfectly.

Thanks for that, but as @Baloney Balderdash commented, it is water based, so it will never be totally water resistant. I'm now looking at options for crater filling with PVA, finishing with a waterproof layer on top.

David

[Maude]

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I'm not at all convinced PVA will be suitable for this use. I can't imagine it will flat and polish to a shine in the same way that acrylic polyurethane, nail varnish, superglue, etc does. 

Also if kept in a humid environment PVA will reabsorb moisture and turn milky and soft, although the level of moisture needed for this to happen would probably result in far more serious issues than the glue. 

[John Cribbin]

Don't get to hung up on water based, check the specs.

 

Most car manufacturers spray cars with water based paint these days. 

[Maude]

26 minutes ago, John Cribbin said:

Don't get to hung up on water based, check the specs.

 

Most car manufacturers spray cars with water based paint these days. 

 

'Water based' automotive paint isn't water based as such. It is a water bourne paint. It is still acrylic polyurethane pigment but suspended in water rather than solvent. The water evaporates the same as the solvent to leave a coating of acrylic polyurethane. 

It gets more complicated the deeper you delve into it but that's the basis of it. 

[Mottlefeeder]

On 12/08/2022 at 21:43, Maude said:

I'm happy to be proved wrong, but I'm not at all convinced PVA will be suitable for this use. I can't imagine it will flat and polish to a shine in the same way that acrylic polyurethane, nail varnish, superglue, etc does. 

Also if kept in a humid environment PVA will reabsorb moisture and turn milky and soft, although the level of moisture needed for this to happen would probably result in far more serious issues than the glue. 

I agree, and I'm now looking at completing the 'crater-filling' with something both hard and waterproof, like Gluboost if it does not react with the existing foundation of PVA. If it does, then I take out all the existing PVA and start again with a sealing layer of Gluboost followed by a tinted layer of Gluboost, then fill as necessary with clear Gluboost.

David

[NancyJohnson]

I'm not certain how big the area is, but using several coats of nail varnish would also be a good call.  Just build up coats, rub back, repeat.

 

Given the amount of colour choice and finishes out there (gloss/matte), I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to get a decent colour/finish match.

 

As mentioned above, straight PVA will always have a sticky/rubbery feel to it; it might be different if you make up a paste of glue and wood dust, but it isn't suitable for filling any surface areas.  It is after all primarily a wood glue or used for sealing walls for plaster.

[ezbass]

5 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

I'm not certain how big the area is, but using several coats of nail varnish would also be a good call.  Just build up coats, rub back, repeat.

 

Given the amount of colour choice and finishes out there (gloss/matte), I wouldn't think it would be too difficult to get a decent colour/finish match.

 

As mentioned above, straight PVA will always have a sticky/rubbery feel to it; it might be different if you make up a paste of glue and wood dust, but it isn't suitable for filling any surface areas.  It is after all primarily a wood glue or used for sealing walls for plaster.

Nail varnish has been my go to for repairs on a variety of items for ages, including basses/guitars. 

[Maude]

22 hours ago, Mottlefeeder said:

I agree, and I'm now looking at completing the 'crater-filling' with something both hard and waterproof, like Gluboost if it does not react with the existing foundation of PVA. If it does, then I take out all the existing PVA and start again with a sealing layer of Gluboost followed by a tinted layer of Gluboost, then fill as necessary with clear Gluboost.

David

 

I've just looked up Gluboost. Holyhead guacamole that's expensive! 

I putting my miserable old cynic head on for a minute now, nearly all guitar specific care products are products developed for other industries put into smaller containers with a big price tag. 

That Gluboost looks to be around £25-30 a bottle and says you'll need their catalyst touch properly harden it which is the same price again, so £50-60.

I'd honestly either just use nail varnish or if you've a friendly bodyshop nearby ask for a tiny bit of lacquer or colour plus hardener and give them a big tin of biscuits. 

But for at home nail varnish is just so easy, clean and quick. 

 

Gluboost do superglue for £15 a bottle, crazy price. 

 

[NancyJohnson]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

 

I've just looked up Gluboost. Holyhead guacamole that's expensive! 

I putting my miserable old cynic head on for a minute now, nearly all guitar specific care products are products developed for other industries put into smaller containers with a big price tag. 

That Gluboost looks to be around £25-30 a bottle and says you'll need their catalyst touch properly harden it which is the same price again, so £50-60.

I'd honestly either just use nail varnish or if you've a friendly bodyshop nearby ask for a tiny bit of lacquer or colour plus hardener and give them a big tin of biscuits. 

But for at home nail varnish is just so easy, clean and quick. 

 

Gluboost do superglue for £15 a bottle, crazy price. 

 

 

I remember recent discussions about shielding control cavities with copper tape.  The 'genuine' stuff was something like £20.00 a roll or something, whereas the the same product was also available as slug tape for £3.99 a roll (the same stuff you can put round flower pots to keep slugs off your strawberries). 

 

People were literally trying to justify spending more because the slug tape 'doesn't work'.  (My father worked in research at the Physics department a Holloway University, Surrey for over 40 years; he was an off the scale boffin.  His opinion on the slug tape was of course it would work, why wouldn't it?  You're just shielding the cavity from exterior interference - dimmers, microwave cookers etc. - and trying to stop that from bleeding into the circuitry and pushing it out to the amp.)

 

[Maude]

6 hours ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

I remember recent discussions about shielding control cavities with copper tape.  The 'genuine' stuff was something like £20.00 a roll or something, whereas the the same product was also available as slug tape for £3.99 a roll (the same stuff you can put round flower pots to keep slugs off your strawberries). 

 

People were literally trying to justify spending more because the slug tape 'doesn't work'.  (My father worked in research at the Physics department a Holloway University, Surrey for over 40 years; he was an off the scale boffin.  His opinion on the slug tape was of course it would work, why wouldn't it?  You're just shielding the cavity from exterior interference - dimmers, microwave cookers etc. - and trying to stop that from bleeding into the circuitry and pushing it out to the amp.)

 

 

1 oz  Dunlop lemon oil spray £4.99

 

16 oz Parker & Bailey lemons oil polish £8.99

[tauzero]

Would a clear nail varnish be best to show the grain, plus matching water colour?

[NancyJohnson]

3 minutes ago, tauzero said:

Would a clear nail varnish be best to show the grain, plus matching water colour?

 

I wouldn't see why not so long as you find a decent colour match.  I'm not sure if the base water colour coat would darken/lighten when you apply clear varnish.  Test on a piece of wood first or inside the control cavity if there's bare wood in there.

 

 End of the day, if you varnish something (like a table), you're always going to sand back between coats and any sandpaper damage disappears on the next coat.