Overpriced or investment?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, NancyJohnson said:

I'd be incredibly cautious about buying instruments as an investment, certainly where the instrument is mass produced.

 

I'm not currently on the market for something I can flip for profit, but I do have c.£30k in premium bonds that my wife has said I can draw from if something came up.

 

I follow Hamer... specifically three digit serial# Standards.  Gibson.  Hmm. I nearly pulled the trigger on a Gibson Theodore (could have almost doubled my investment in under a year), missed the Slash 4 Les Paul.  Suspect that if the Gibson Kirk Hammett  Flying V happens - and it's a limited one - I'll buy one  (or two) of those and just stick it/them under the bed.

What’s the Cary Grant quote? “They say money talks. All it’s ever said to me is goodbye”

 

[tegs07]

2 minutes ago, FDC484950 said:

What’s the Cary Grant quote? “They say money talks. All it’s ever said to me is goodbye”

 

30K at 13% inflation indeed goodbye to over 3K in a year…

[sirmuppet]

It's a fair point about the cost of things at the moment. Fender will likely be feeling the strain just as any other company is. Cost of labour, power, materials, shipping (It's through the roof and at one point was 8 times as much as it was pre pandemic). Though it's the first time I've seen the dollar amount for say a Super Bassman head lower than the pound amount. 

 

Lets not forget right before Fenders "price increase" they were found guilty of price fixing in Europe and fined £4.3 million. That could also explain the high price this side of the pond. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jan/22/guitar-maker-fender-fined-45m-for-price-fixing-in-uk#:~:text=The guitar maker Fender has,online discounting for its guitars.

 

[NancyJohnson]

18 minutes ago, tegs07 said:

30K at 13% inflation indeed goodbye to over 3K in a year…

 

I'd never really given much thought to the actual value of money if you factor in inflation, something else to keep me awake at night I suppose.

 

Thing is, unless you took the risk and either invested in* something that is now magically worth a fortune, you're always sliding in the wrong direction.  (*Didn't someone sell his 10% in Apple for $800 about 30 years ago?). Fender Precision basses aren't the way to make a fortune.

 

The only way to make a decent investment return is to go into retail, but you're reliant on there being a ready market for what you're selling   I'm sure the more specialist guitar retailers would says it's hard work and a struggle.

[Steve Browning]

I wonder whether the redundancies are more in the amp line, where component availability is making life particularly hard for manufacturers.

[tegs07]

19 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said:

 

I'd never really given much thought to the actual value of money if you factor in inflation, something else to keep me awake at night I suppose.

 

Thing is, unless you took the risk and either invested in* something that is now magically worth a fortune, you're always sliding in the wrong direction.  (*Didn't someone sell his 10% in Apple for $800 about 30 years ago?). Fender Precision basses aren't the way to make a fortune.

 

The only way to make a decent investment return is to go into retail, but you're reliant on there being a ready market for what you're selling   I'm sure the more specialist guitar retailers would says it's hard work and a struggle.

I think about it as I spent nearly 20 years cycling to work having ditched a second car so I could put the money saved into a savings account for the kids uni fees. That’s nearly 20 years of wringing my soaking pants and socks out in the work bathroom sink and trying not to freeze in January and February! I really don’t want all of that effort to be eroded away.

Your correct it is difficult to make a decent return on any investment and making a lot of money out of instruments is tricky. That said I bought a couple of instruments alongside some other things rather than let the cash sit in a 0.5% account whilst inflation runs many multiples ahead. If I can just only lose 5% of the savings over the next couple of years its a result.

Edited August 9, 2022 by tegs07

[BigRedX]

I've found the simplest way to avoid having too many money worries was not to own a car and not to have kids.

[tegs07]

7 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

I've found the simplest way to avoid having too many money worries was not to own a car and not to have kids.

Yep raising a family is an expensive business. It does however provide a lot of joy and add meaning to life. It won’t suit everyone but it’s not something I would have wanted to miss out on.

Edited August 9, 2022 by tegs07

[OliverBlackman]

5 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Moaning about how much a Fender costs is the same as my dad complaining that a Mars bar cost 9p in 1965.

That’d be £1.23 in todays money 😜

[NancyJohnson]

5 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Moaning about how much a Fender costs is the same as my dad complaining that a Mars bar cost 9p in 1965.

 

When I left my junior school, I used to have to take a bus to school.  Fare was 4p each way.  

 

With a pocket of change and we'd hit up the sweet shop at 8.00am, buy two Mars bars for 8p and start walking.

[Jean-Luc Pickguard]

4 hours ago, Ed_S said:

Personally I don't do second hand instruments any more, as every time I've tried, they've never ended up feeling like they're mine. So I'll just stick to nice examples of mass-production that arrive factory-taped and smell of new! 🙂 

I'm the opposite. I like that buying secondhand means that *if* I ever do sell on a bass (or guitar) I will probably be able to recoup the initial investment.

 

I recently bought a secondhand Fender vintera mustang (guitar not bass) in mint condition for a little over half the cost of a new one. When it arrived it did feel like I was playing someone else's guitar as the strings were heavier than the Fender 09s I prefer and the action was a bit higher than I like. I changed the strings & gave it a full setup to get the action as low as it would go without buzzing, and also added a tiny disc of leather to the end of the trem arm's grubscrew to prevent metal on metal contact which caused it to gradually work loose. Now the guitar definitely feels like mine and—my telecasters are probably feeling a bit neglected.

[OliverBlackman]

For the record, I do not need a new P bass as my £300 Mexican fender from 2006 is fantastic. But the point is that prices are out of reach for some and if I was 16 now I would only be able to look at Harley Benton’s and Squier if I wanted to buy new. A Fender US P bass was the gigging standard so I used it as an example.
 

Second hand values have basically followed. About 10 years ago I sold a Fender AM deluxe jazz V for around £500 which is around what I paid for it and a MM stingray for similar amount, about half what I paid for it. I’d get over £1k for each now.

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

One might say that moaning is the purpose of this forum

Not sure you can compare cost of a bar of chocolate over 57 years with cost of a big ticket bass over 14. However you are right that they’re certainly isolated in doing so - many bass brands have gone up by a similar amount in that time. Scarcity of good instrument grade lumber that’s light enough not to result in a boat anchor bass is one of the biggest issues. Whatever the cause, it’s likely Fender is laying off people not because they don’t make a profit out of these instruments, but they’re simply not selling enough (and probably wouldn’t even if they were £1500 retail instead of £2K). It’s notable how few shops in the UK have any non-custom shop US Fenders in stock, so it suggest supply chain problems are still very much an issue.

 

Good points (and yes, we do love to moan on here).

 

I think Fender's issue (and that of many similar companies) is that they scaled up to meet demand when times were good. Shrinking demand, combined with supply chain problems (the automotive industry is similarly affected - they cannot get hold of the components they need post pandemic/shutdown), mean they have too much capacity and must downsize and make savings. The largest element of most companies' costs are usually wages, hence the recently announced lay-offs at Fender.

 

Re. suggestions to commission a luthier to make a custom instrument, whilst I am in favour of supporting independent luthiers, resale value has to be taken into account when buying an expensive instrument. Some years ago, I decided to buy the mandolin I had always wanted (an F5). I liked the idea of getting a luthier to build me one and even made enquiries of several. However, I bought a Gibson in the end because I knew it would hold/increase its value (which it has) due to the name on the headstock.

 

I don't think it wise to view instruments, especially mass produced ones, as an investment in the shorter term. In many cases, you need to be able to afford to keep them for a long time to see any decent return. There are always exceptions, of course (such as the Les Pauls referred to above), but how do you predict which they will be?

[Boodang]

10 hours ago, Ed_S said:

 

If it works out, absolutely. It didn't for me - I went to a well respected luthier but sadly the end result wasn't special at all. It eventually moved on at about a 60% loss. The same thing with Fender on the headstock would have moved much faster for a lot more money.

That's a shame. And as you've experienced the resale on a custom is often not that good. I've never thought about resale value when I've bought a bass, the only considerations are, can I afford it and how much do I like playing it. I've been lucky with my customs though and they've always ended up as something special.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

For the record, I do not need a new P bass as my £300 Mexican fender from 2006 is fantastic. But the point is that prices are out of reach for some and if I was 16 now I would only be able to look at Harley Benton’s and Squier if I wanted to buy new. A Fender US P bass was the gigging standard so I used it as an example.
 

Second hand values have basically followed. About 10 years ago I sold a Fender AM deluxe jazz V for around £500 which is around what I paid for it and a MM stingray for similar amount, about half what I paid for it. I’d get over £1k for each now.

It’s also worth mentioning that very inexpensive basses are now generally speaking way better quality than 20-30 years ago. I remember trying a Chinese squier back in the late 90s and it was firewood, as were many sub-£200 basses back then. 

[Ed_S]

1 hour ago, Boodang said:

That's a shame. And as you've experienced the resale on a custom is often not that good. I've never thought about resale value when I've bought a bass, the only considerations are, can I afford it and how much do I like playing it. I've been lucky with my customs though and they've always ended up as something special.

 

Ah well, it's all part of the journey isn't it, and I know people who've lost a lot more than a grand on much more painful and profound life lessons. And it's not like I've even learned mine either as I'm currently waiting patiently for a teambuilt Warwick to be erm.. built by the team, having convinced myself that if it's not what I want when it arrives then it'll sell just fine as it's not actually custom. And in any case, I 'paid' for it entirely by trading in basses I no longer use so it is also, in fact, free! 🙂

 

It's probably accountancy like mine that makes basses seem like a good investment.

[Barking Spiders]

6 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

For the record, I do not need a new P bass as my £300 Mexican fender from 2006 is fantastic. But the point is that prices are out of reach for some and if I was 16 now I would only be able to look at Harley Benton’s and Squier if I wanted to buy new. A Fender US P bass was the gigging standard so I used it as an example.
 

Second hand values have basically followed. About 10 years ago I sold a Fender AM deluxe jazz V for around £500 which is around what I paid for it and a MM stingray for similar amount, about half what I paid for it. I’d get over £1k for each now.

Last time I looked, last tuesday as it happens, Indonesian made basses are still all very reasonably priced and well within reach of any beginner

 

[OliverBlackman]

37 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

Last time I looked, last tuesday as it happens, Indonesian made basses are still all very reasonably priced and well within reach of any beginner

 

Not particularly good though. Think Squier is made there now and mine is sh*t quality. Some good basses coming out of South Korea but Moollon and vintage modern around £2k. Sire seem to be breaking the mould but that can’t keep up with demand. 

[Count Bassy]

13 hours ago, BigRedX said:

This might be a radical opinion, but...

 

Do you really need another bass? What wrong with the one(s) you already have?

Mods. Please lock this thread.  BigRed seems to have lost his mind.

[Count Bassy]

14 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

Moaning about how much a Fender costs is the same as my dad complaining that a Mars bar cost 9p in 1965.

 

But you are forgetting that Mars Bars were also bigger back then.

[Bunion]

3 minutes ago, Count Bassy said:

But you are forgetting that Mars Bars were also bigger back then.

And you were smaller 

[Bunion]

I did prefer the paper wrapper and the card insert to add substance to the flimsy outer.

[Drax]

8 hours ago, OliverBlackman said:

But the point is that prices are out of reach for some and if I was 16 now I would only be able to look at Harley Benton’s and Squier if I wanted to buy new.. 

If you were 16 now you’d be buying a laptop & protools .. 

 

[neepheid]

1 hour ago, OliverBlackman said:

Not particularly good though. Think Squier is made there now and mine is sh*t quality. Some good basses coming out of South Korea but Moollon and vintage modern around £2k. Sire seem to be breaking the mould but that can’t keep up with demand. 

 

Reverends are made in South Korea and they're less than half that price. Mine is excellent, so by your logic they must all be excellent...

 

Am I the only one who finds these kind of blanket statements about instrument quality based upon where they're made because someone has had a bad one a bit... ikky?

 

G&L Tributes are made in Indonesia. So are Lakland Skylines if memory serves. Absolute garbage instruments, amirite?

[OliverBlackman]

7 hours ago, neepheid said:

 

Reverends are made in South Korea and they're less than half that price. Mine is excellent, so by your logic they must all be excellent...

 

Am I the only one who finds these kind of blanket statements about instrument quality based upon where they're made because someone has had a bad one a bit... ikky?

 

G&L Tributes are made in Indonesia. So are Lakland Skylines if memory serves. Absolute garbage instruments, amirite?

I don’t think you read what I was commenting on. I said there were some good instruments coming out of South Korea but the examples I provided were expensive and not for beginners. Reverend aren’t priced at beginners, neither are Lakland whether Indonesia or US built. 
 

This thread was to illustrate the above inflation shift in instrument pricing over the last decade, not what is the best bass.