Help for a newbie

[Burns-bass]

14 hours ago, Bloopdad1 said:

I'll attach one of my favourite YouTube clips... Regardless of your musical style and genre watch it all the way through just to see what a bass can do. 

I love my bass guitars (especially my '72 P bass) and it's great to groove on Superstition or Mr Brightside but it's just all too easy to play loud and fast, nothing compares to the real thing in dynamics, speed, range or satisfaction. 

 

 

This is, quite frankly incredible, but a beginner should probably start by getting the basics down and maybe aim a little lower!

 

As soon as you can play a few notes, get out and play with other people. There’s something very odd about DB, people just seem to love it - so give the public what it wants!

 

In all seriousness, DB can feel a slog when you start but playing a few bluegrass tunes or folk songs with people builds confidence massively as well as keeping you going. 

[Bloopdad1]

3 hours ago, Burns-bass said:

This is, quite frankly incredible, but a beginner should probably start by getting the basics down and maybe aim a little lower!

 

As soon as you can play a few notes, get out and play with other people. There’s something very odd about DB, people just seem to love it - so give the public what it wants!

 

In all seriousness, DB can feel a slog when you start but playing a few bluegrass tunes or folk songs with people builds confidence massively as well as keeping you going. 

Yes, it is a superb performance of the famous Grand Duet played by Rinat and his daughter. (did you know that Bottesini originally wrote it for 2 double basses! But his buddy Paganini was jealous of the gorgeous tune so tweaked the first bass part for violin...) 

 

I was responding to the OP who wanted to clarify my original comment of "Oh, and don't think like a bass guitarist... Its a TOTALLY different beast"...

The DB is my lifelong companion but I was concerned that if the OP didn't get the basics right it could do some physical damage and lead to injury - I strongly suggested not to underestimate the DB and get some basic lessons. 

Do not tackle the DB with a BG technique or mentality! 😉

 

The Bottesini - you're right in saying it's definitely not a beginners piece (I've had a lifetime of playing and I can still only get about 80% of the Bottesini... Its a beast!). 

I was just giving an example of what a bass can do and how differently the 2 instruments are. I use two differing thought processes on how I address each instruments technique. 

 

One day I'll nail that bloody Bottesini properly (and the Dittersdorf plus that superb solo by Stanley Clark and of course Victor Wooton's Amazing Grace!) but for me the way Rinat plays the Bottesini is truly inspiring. 

(annoyingly my much younger desk partner can play it to about 95%!!... But not like Rinat could 😍) 

 

RIP Rinat you were one of the greatest bassists ever...😥

 

 

[Kevsy71]

On 17/08/2022 at 23:23, Geek99 said:

Slight thread derail (for which apologies) how do you know where the notes are, every single time, except maybe via some feature of the grain? 

I've only been playing two months, but practicing scales to a reference piano scales recording - while not looking at the fingerboard at all - is helping. That's slowly but surely developing the muscle memory and training my ears. And the feeling  of joy when finally nailing Eb (with its odyssey up the G) makes it worthwhile

 

The next step is to start bowing, where your accuracy (or lack of!)  becomes very apparent....especially to others in the household!

Edited August 25, 2022 by Kevsy71

[Bloopdad1]

On 17/08/2022 at 23:23, Geek99 said:

Slight thread derail (for which apologies) how do you know where the notes are, every single time, except maybe via some feature of the grain? 

When you play bass you don't actually look at the neck (just like a violin, viola and cello - you physically can't see the neck on those instruments as your playing them). 

Fretted instruments are much simpler to play but also quite restrictive (frets confuse me if I look down at them... Nasty little finger traps as I call them! I find it easier and more natural not to look!) 

It's all about string stop, neck heel, arm shoulder and head positioning and most importantly practice practice practice... 

[neilp]

On 20/08/2022 at 11:46, Bloopdad1 said:

Yes, it is a superb performance of the famous Grand Duet played by Rinat and his daughter. (did you know that Bottesini originally wrote it for 2 double basses! But his buddy Paganini was jealous of the gorgeous tune so tweaked the first bass part for violin...) 

 

I was responding to the OP who wanted to clarify my original comment of "Oh, and don't think like a bass guitarist... Its a TOTALLY different beast"...

The DB is my lifelong companion but I was concerned that if the OP didn't get the basics right it could do some physical damage and lead to injury - I strongly suggested not to underestimate the DB and get some basic lessons. 

Do not tackle the DB with a BG technique or mentality! 😉

 

The Bottesini - you're right in saying it's definitely not a beginners piece (I've had a lifetime of playing and I can still only get about 80% of the Bottesini... Its a beast!). 

I was just giving an example of what a bass can do and how differently the 2 instruments are. I use two differing thought processes on how I address each instruments technique. 

 

One day I'll nail that bloody Bottesini properly (and the Dittersdorf plus that superb solo by Stanley Clark and of course Victor Wooton's Amazing Grace!) but for me the way Rinat plays the Bottesini is truly inspiring. 

(annoyingly my much younger desk partner can play it to about 95%!!... But not like Rinat could 😍) 

 

RIP Rinat you were one of the greatest bassists ever...😥

 

 

You're right - the Bottesini is great fun to play - all Bottesini is! Rinat was an extraordinary musician and teacher, I studied with him when he was a young man. All of this virtuosic stuff seems impossible in the early stages, but if you learn the basics thoroughly, it's surprising what diligent practice can achieve!

[zbd1960]

As a cellist I'd say make sure you don't skimp on the bow. Cheap bows are useless and will hinder your progress. 

[Bloopdad1]

18 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

As a cellist I'd say make sure you don't skimp on the bow. Cheap bows are useless and will hinder your progress. 

Agreed... (thats if the OP wants to turn to the dark side and go down the arco path!) 

My old teacher said "for beginners a rough guide is to spend about a 1/4 of the value of your instrument on your bow." (or something like that!) 

[zbd1960]

10 hours ago, Bloopdad1 said:

Agreed... (thats if the OP wants to turn to the dark side and go down the arco path!) 

My old teacher said "for beginners a rough guide is to spend about a 1/4 of the value of your instrument on your bow." (or something like that!) 

Yep, that's about right. My cello cost me £1,800 back in 2011 and the bow was £450.

[NickA]

Don't buy new I said ... since which I encountered a new 5-string T&G Martin owned by an orchestral colleague; I'm in love, that bass has the best bottom B I've ever heard... cost him £15k though.

 

Bows?  My cello cost £2 and my bow £1300

 

... admittedly, my grandfather bought the cello in 1948 as part of a job lot and the bow is quite new.

Edited September 10, 2022 by NickA

[Sambrook]

Thanks to all of you for your input: it has shaped my thinking.

I saw Ash's Selmer for sale on here. He's only an hour from me, it's been well played in and set up, so it came home with me.

 

Still pondering lessons (I'm a diehard cheapskate), but YT is proving very helpful indeed ('Discover Double Bass' in particular)

 

Beginning to understand the need for a different mentality in the approach.

 

I need educating in the matter of a bow. A bow is a bow is a bow, no? (a stick and some horsehair) What does a £1200 bow have over a £120 one, for example? 

 

The above is an ignorant comment, I know, so please enlighten me!

 

Cheers, Sean 

 

[TheRev]

1 hour ago, Sambrook said:

 

 

Still pondering lessons (I'm a diehard cheapskate), but YT is proving very helpful indeed ('Discover Double Bass' in particular)

 

 

 

I'd recommed at least one face to face lesson to make sure you have the correct stance and left hane position/shape -it will save from a lot of pain (literally) in the future.

[Bloopdad1]

59 minutes ago, Sambrook said:

Thanks to all of you for your input: it has shaped my thinking.

I saw Ash's Selmer for sale on here. He's only an hour from me, it's been well played in and set up, so it came home with me.

 

Still pondering lessons (I'm a diehard cheapskate), but YT is proving very helpful indeed ('Discover Double Bass' in particular)

 

Beginning to understand the need for a different mentality in the approach.

 

I need educating in the matter of a bow. A bow is a bow is a bow, no? (a stick and some horsehair) What does a £1200 bow have over a £120 one, for example? 

 

The above is an ignorant comment, I know, so please enlighten me!

 

Cheers, Sean 

 

Congratulations Sean on your new bass (get a teacher, you cheap skate!!!!) 😜 and well done for realising you must take a different approach to playing it, compared to a soulless plank with pickups 🤣

Oh, boy... 

Where do I start.... A bow is VERY subjective and personal. Its the thing I have the most difficulty explaining. 

The best way I can explain it is that the bass is the instrument, the bow is the amplifier. The bow DRAWS the sound out of the bass...

Or, a Ferrari is the "bass" and the super sticky Pirellis is the "bow".. 

 

As you're just starting out it'll be a really alien thing... Go for second hand, cheap carbon fiber or "student" bow around £250??

The more you spend the smaller the gained improvements.. 

The money isn't in the hair, ferrule, screw, frog or inlays... Its ALL down to the stick. 

(Go for something around 140g). 

 

I can't begin how to explain about feel/balance and how the stick flexes minutely to grab the string, I just don't have the vocabulary. 

The feeling from the bow playing spicatto or ricochet, even double takes is addictive when you have a decent bow. 

 

Different bows really do draw a different sound out of a bass. Some enables the bass to project much more and others are much more articulate. 

I reckon I can play 80% of my rep on a standard £500 student bow and make a decent job of it. 

I have a "bog standard" but heavy Andrew McGill bow at £3500 and a gorgeous Tunnicliffe bow at +£6000 - the difference is tiny between the two, could the McGill do what the Tunnicliffe can do? Of course it can to about 99.99%...

Do you need to spend that much? - of course not. 

 

Can a £12000 Fodera play a 12 bar blues better than a Mexican Squire? Possibly, but maybe not £11500 better... 

 

Bows = a minefield of subjectivity and trial and error. 

My first bow cost £50 made of plastic and was wonderful. 

 

Get a teacher! 😂 

[Downunderwonder]

1 hour ago, Sambrook said:

A bow is a bow is a bow, no? (a stick and some horsehair) What does a £1200 bow have over a £120 one, for example? 

You won't know until you bow.

 

A pro will make a decent enoug sound with anything, much as a pro cyclist could take the field on an off the rack bike.

 

A good bow will do things that a cheap one will not, if you have the technique, which you can't learn on a piece o' junk.

[Sambrook]

On 12/09/2022 at 11:25, Bloopdad1 said:

A bow is VERY subjective and personal. Its the thing I have the most difficulty explaining

And yet you've explained it very well! The bow as amplifier is a very instructive illustration, thanks Bloopdad.

 

Because I'm an almost complete beginner (couple of months each on a cello and HB EUB), I put all the horrendous screeches down to me, not the bow. I'm thinking it will be a while before I can discern the shortcomings of my bow, so will put off upgrading till then.

 

Is that a reasonable idea? And how would you all rate something like this?-

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270778045194?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=A1ga7-VKTNK&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=SYHO0yd2SXe&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

 

Very much appreciate the time you've all taken to reply in such detail; it makes this 'voyage of discovery ' less scary. Cheers 

 

 

[Sambrook]

Just for reference, this is the stick I have at present:

[Bloopdad1]

Hi

Me again....! 

Just checked out the ebay link and it definitely looks like a bow! 

Although I'm most concerned with its length - it's listed at 705cm long!!!! You'd be able to bow a full section of 8 basses all at once with a 7m bow! 😂 

Obviously a typo... But it is advertised as a 3/4 bow which would be far too small for an adult OR the seller could mean that its for a 3/4 bass?? Which would make it a "full size bow" suitable for 3/4, 7/8 and full size basses (including 5 stringers) .... 

If the seller can't get the basics right I'd be wary, plus looking at it I'd be surprised if it is indeed 140g (if it is 140g then the balance is definitely in the wrong place simply by looking at the stick!) 

 

The only way to buy a bow is with a trial (if you can) and also be advised by a teacher who will assess your needs. 

 

Oh, don't forget the rosin, that makes a HUGE difference - buy a pot of "Pops" or "Nymans" (about £14'ish), swipe/melt loads on and use slow, heavy, grippy bow strokes using the power of your upper arm and shoulder (DO NOT USE CELLO/VIOLIN HARD POWDERY ROSIN when you're learning, it'll set you back months) plus it'll screech and p*ss off the missus, cat, neighbours etc etc

 

Oh, and get a teacher just to set you on the straight and narrow (only for 2 or 3 lessons) 

 

Also have a look on Gumtree, there are a few decent used bows on there right now. 

Edited September 13, 2022 by Bloopdad1
Spelling!

[Sambrook]

Thanks boss, always good food for thought from you. Going to Gumtree now...

[NickA]

Only ever had two bass lessons .. after owning a bass for 30 odd years and playing in an orchestra for 10 of them .. there were gaps in which I hardly played it. ( I did grow up playing the cello mind.. which helps to an extent).  The lessons were still a useful step up.

 

I think without lessons you hit brick walls and can't progress.  A decent teacher will give you a leg up, which you might need to get started. 

 

Nothing better than lots of playing time though. And though it's possibly the dullest book in the world, get a copy of Simandl and work through the (endless) excercises.  Gets your left hand working.  Stops you trying to look at your fingers and builds muscle memory.  I should get mine out really but too much playing to do right now (two orchestras and two jazz groups : DB = instant popularity)

[Sambrook]

I was just reading about Francois Rabbath, how he has built on the work of Simandl. Would his book/method be better to start with, or do you have to 'do' Simandl first?

[Sambrook]

And another question while I'm at it: what's a good preamp for the upright? Been looking at the Headway edb-1. Are there any threads on this matter that I've missed? Cheers in advance...

[NickA]

I think the rabatt technique is sound, more reach and fewer position changes.  But also easier to play out of tune, I think.  In truth, most bass player use simandl but stick in the odd "thumb pivot" to get a note a semitone away from the official position.  Specially useful when your thumb is on the neck heel and you want to get that F ( or F# for us "Eflat neck" devotees).  I'd say go simandl then later on build a few rabatt moves into your repertoir.

 

At least there ARE formal techniques for double bass, whereas on electric people tend to thrash around uncertainly using bits of 3 finger, bits of 4 finger and a fair amount of bunch of bananas.

 

..about which, local lass plays with her fingers bunched and shifts her whole hand for every new note, not sure which finger is holding the string down, but classic BoB. Gets loads of work with the blue-grass and Americana crowd.  Might struggle with jazz or classical.

 

Pre-amps ? I just plug my piezo-pickup into my pjb combo.  It has plenty enough input impedance.  That EBS Stan Clarke looks a fun bit of kit tho if you've £350 burning a hole 😁