A bit of bed time reading

[bassbiscuits]

No I can’t read music at all. Always meant to get round to it but never did.

 

Now the gap between my playing ability and reading ability is so big it would feel like a massive step backwards to try to match up the two. 
 

Rubbish excuse I know. 

[Downunderwonder]

If you can play it you can read it. On a first run I will sometimes switch modes from reading to inuiting based on what it sounds like it should be given the flyshit as it appears in view. Ain't nobody complaining.

 

My teacher used to say, pieces are just mixed up scales. The key of the tune gives your fingers most of the notes and the sharps and flats are the only info that has to be dutifully read along with the note durations.

 

When it jumps around your brain has a bit more work to do but even then you can recognise the interval and transfer that to your finger and hand position without having to go via note name and position on the instrument.

[BigRedX]

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things.

 

I can read music in that I know where all the notes are on the bass and treble clefs and what the note lengths are and what the common symbols mean (and I know where to look them up if I come across something I don't recognise). However I couldn't sit down and play from a sheet of musical notation.

 

This might be something to do with the fact that I am mildly dyslexic. I couldn't sight read from tab either, and anything other than the simplest guitar chord sheets will leave me struggling. The only way I can play anything that doesn't involve improvisation is to completely commit it to memory. I can't even use a crib sheet because it would take too long for me to find my place should I forget what I was supposed to be playing.

 

TBH the only time in 45+ years of playing, I have needed the ability to be able to read or write music was in the mid 80s when registering songs with the PRS require you to supply write notation for the vocal melody and any other notable musical themes. Myself and the the other synth player in my band of that time divided up the songs between us and spent a couple of months preparing the sheets and checking each other's work before sending them off to the PRS.

 

Since then no-one in any band I have been in has supplied me with written musical notation to play from, or asked that I should do the same for them.

[Dad3353]

48 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things...

 

This is true; sight-reading is an extension of 'reading', and has its own challenges. For most purposes, reading, albeit slowly and methodically, would be enough to get the enormous benefit that it brings; sight reading becomes a 'must' when depping theatre pit shows, concerts or studio session work. 

 

48 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

... is to completely commit it to memory...

 

Many (most..?) concert pianists, and other performers, have the score in front of them, but have practised and rehearsed enough to not read from it, as it's been committed to memory. They have spent the time beforehand, though, studying the piece (reading it, obviously, but more than that, mostly...), and playing it through a number of times. Memorising is part of the skill in reading; few will be reading from the score 'live'.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Dad3353

[Doddy]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things.

I don't think that they are different.  If someone calls you for a gig or something and asks 'can you read?', and you answer ' Yes, but not sight read', you may as well have said 'no'.

I liken it to language. I know a couple of French and German words and phrases, and could probably work out more, but I would never say that I speak either language. Although knowing a little is far better than knowing nothing

 

Personally, every musician I knew when I was growing up could read, and I was shown the basics on the same day I picked up an instrument, so I've always thought that reading is a basic part of learning an instrument, and pretty much everyone learning something that isn't guitar or bass does it.

[Nicko]

14 hours ago, Velarian said:

I played Cornet in the school band (45 years ago) and could read simple to moderate treble clef music. I always struggled with site reading but could eventually work a piece out. However, the passage of time has dulled what little knowledge I had. I regret not keeping up with now. 

Me too.  My reading was so bad I had to memorise the piece.  If I got lost I sometimes used to just pretend to play. The beauty of being  3rd cornet is that no one noticed.

 

I've tried to improve my reading - or more importantly my writing recently to help with programming via the piano roll but still struggle with more complex rhythms and I'm not sure I'll ever get to the point where I can write out something that I have in my head.

[Ed_S]

4 hours ago, Downunderwonder said:

Exactly where I was when the opportunity came up to play in a big band. All of a sudden I was 'reading' bass clef until I was reading bass. 

 

Aye, never say never and all that, but I'm willing to go as far as saying that where revisiting playing from dots is concerned, I passionately don't want to and can't think of any opportunity so enticing as to change my outlook. On the plus side, I reckon it's been so long that I'd be in born-again territory and could focus on bass clef without any vestiges of treble confusing me. Conversely, though, I reckon I'd resent it so much it'd be the beginning of the last 6 months of me playing.

[BassTractor]

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

Many (most..?) concert pianists, and other performers, have the score in front of them, but have practised and rehearsed enough to not read from it, as it's been committed to memory. They have spent the time beforehand, though, studying the piece (reading it, obviously, but more than that, mostly...), and playing it through a number of times. Memorising is part of the skill in reading; few will be reading from the score 'live'.

 

Can't talk for others, and especially not for concert pianists, but IME the reading during performance maybe is as much a habit as it is a need. Of course it depends massively: sight reading during depping is not the same as preparing a concert for three to six months.
In the latter case, I'd say the reading possibly mainly is about the aid that's in handwritten text and symbols in the score, and the whole score giving one's memory some help as to where in the piece one is (and where one wants to go).
An orchestra musician would write down specific instructions previously given by the director, for example.
Me, I'd write: "Don't slow down here. Remember the audience wants to go home and watch the evening news!"

I think there seems to be a certain moving away from reading whilst performing. I've seen more and more directors asking orchestras to play by heart and become more free  -  in several cases the whole orchestra standing and moving about somewhat.
However, what I've seen of this myself often felt a bit sheepish; these classical musicians do not always tend to be virtual Mick Jaggers.

[Nail Soup]

One thing that does my head in about reading is the key signatures.

Once I worked out that all the sharps and flats are there only once at the beginning it was a 'this is not for me' moment.

 

 

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Doddy said:

I don't think that they are different.  If someone calls you for a gig or something and asks 'can you read?', and you answer ' Yes, but not sight read', you may as well have said 'no'.

I liken it to language. I know a couple of French and German words and phrases, and could probably work out more, but I would never say that I speak either language. Although knowing a little is far better than knowing nothing

 

Personally, every musician I knew when I was growing up could read, and I was shown the basics on the same day I picked up an instrument, so I've always thought that reading is a basic part of learning an instrument, and pretty much everyone learning something that isn't guitar or bass does it.

 

For me at least it is completely different. I know what all the symbols mean, and should I need to, I could probably transcribe a piece I had written almost as quickly as someone who can sight read. I just can't do anything meaningful with them in real time in the context of playing an instrument, although as I said in my previous post that may be linked to my dyslexia as I can't do anything in real time with tab or my own written notes either.

 

As for whether it is part of basic instrumental skill it depends on whether or not you need to use it on a regular basis. I don't. I would rather concentrate what time I have on writing more songs, something I think for me is a more valuable skill.

[SumOne]

12 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

One thing that does my head in about reading is the key signatures.

Once I worked out that all the sharps and flats are there only once at the beginning it was a 'this is not for me' moment.

 

 

 I agree. Remembering/working out that things like 6x # = F# and then needing to remember each of those notes is a #  is my biggest hurdle.

[Velarian]

1 hour ago, SumOne said:

 I agree. Remembering/working out that things like 6x # = F# and then needing to remember each of those notes is a #  is my biggest hurdle.

This sounds like something I must have known back in the day but have now completely forgotten! 😳

[lowdown]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

 

 I could probably transcribe a piece I had written almost as quickly as someone who can sight read. 

 

.

 

Anyone who can sight read notes can transcribe a piece quickly that they have written themselves...because obviously, they know the piece well.

However, can you transcribe and then write a piece down quickly that someone else has written? That requires good ear chops as well as knowledge of the note names, rests and rhythms.

If so, you are getting into the world of arranging and orchestrating. Which of course, is another skill set.

[Count Bassy]

I can mostly work it out, but very very slowly.

[Oddly]

Does TAB count? Asking for a friend...

[Downunderwonder]

8 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

One thing that does my head in about reading is the key signatures.

Once I worked out that all the sharps and flats are there only once at the beginning it was a 'this is not for me' moment.

 

 

The keys go hand in glove with your fingers knowing the scales that go with them. Then the 'accidentals' ( the extra sharps and flats ) show up in your scanning ahead to engage the brain in a shifting finger from the scale note to the accidental.

 

Incidentally, the 'modes' of the scale have you playing a whole lot of really odd sounding notes without accidentals. Real jazzers can play them all by ear. I only know 'major' and 'minor'.

 

If you start a scale on A but play all the notes of C major then you're playing an A minor scale. But you don't need any theory to read it and I couldn't possibly tell you its mode name of C.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Downunderwonder

[Downunderwonder]

12 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things.

Yes and no. I can sight read pretty well, up to the point I can't keep up. That's enough to get some gigs and not others.

 

Players that can sight read anything put in front of them and play it like they mean it are the 1%ers. They are mainly too busy working to post much on forums.

[TheLowDown]

Reading music and theory are my strong points, it's my ears that are pants.

[Downunderwonder]

1 minute ago, TheLowDown said:

Reading music and theory are my strong points, it's my ears that are pants.

You should know what chords please your ears. You can train your 'ears' to recognize intervals and complete the circle.

[zbd1960]

16 hours ago, BigRedX said:

The poll should make the distinction between being able to read music and being able to sight read music, because they IME are two entirely different things.

 

I can read music in that I know where all the notes are on the bass and treble clefs and what the note lengths are and what the common symbols mean (and I know where to look them up if I come across something I don't recognise). However I couldn't sit down and play from a sheet of musical notation.

 

This might be something to do with the fact that I am mildly dyslexic. I couldn't sight read from tab either, and anything other than the simplest guitar chord sheets will leave me struggling. The only way I can play anything that doesn't involve improvisation is to completely commit it to memory. I can't even use a crib sheet because it would take too long for me to find my place should I forget what I was supposed to be playing.

 

TBH the only time in 45+ years of playing, I have needed the ability to be able to read or write music was in the mid 80s when registering songs with the PRS require you to supply write notation for the vocal melody and any other notable musical themes. Myself and the the other synth player in my band of that time divided up the songs between us and spent a couple of months preparing the sheets and checking each other's work before sending them off to the PRS.

 

Since then no-one in any band I have been in has supplied me with written musical notation to play from, or asked that I should do the same for them.

I believe music teachers use coloured overlay sheets to help people with dyslexia read music - I know no more than that, but might be useful?

[zbd1960]

13 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

One thing that does my head in about reading is the key signatures.

Once I worked out that all the sharps and flats are there only once at the beginning it was a 'this is not for me' moment.

 

 

That's a weird paper saving device used by lead sheets - that's not how standard notation works, which puts the key signature on every line. First time I encountered a lead sheet that confused me 

[zbd1960]

I've seen several posts here about the difficulties of reading music and of sight-reading. 

 

As adults we tend to think we can do things 'straight away' once we've had something explained. This is generally not a realistic position. It's certainly not true of playing an instrument. Reading notation is akin to learning to read, only it's less complex as there are fewer symbols to learn: there are only 7 note names (A to G).

 

What frustrates many adult learners is that their reading ability is out-of-step with their playing ability. That is purely down to practice. You don't go from Enid Blyton to Tolstoy quickly when learning to read and music is no different.

 

Sight-reading is similar - you have to do it to improve and you have to start with simpler pieces. When I was in my 30s and I started singing lessons (never having sung a note, nor at that stage having really played an instrument). Each week my teacher would stick some random thing in front of me and say 'sing that'. He was making me sight read. At first it was hopeless/impossible. Over time you recognise intervals and you find you're doing it. You do more complex pieces, you get better at it.

 

To improve sight reading you have to do it. My summer school last week was filled with sight reading since most pieces I'd never played before.

 

Something I've suggested to others in the past is go to IMSLP.ORG and download something like a cello / bass / bassoon part (e.g. a concerto grosso by Handel) and use it to work on both reading bass and sight reading. The most important thing with sight reading is staying in time - wrong notes don't matter, but staying in rhythm does.

 

 

     

[Richard R]

4 hours ago, zbd1960 said:

What frustrates many adult learners is that their reading ability is out-of-step with their playing ability

 

Think of it like learning to read words. As a four year old you could express most of what you wanted verbally, but learning to read and write came afterwards. As you got older you could express more complex ideas verbally and your reading and writing hopefully kept improving until well into your teens. 

 

I suspect that the reason we think of music differently is becuase of the classical world's emphasis on being able to sight-read and play what someone else has scored. So reading has to come before "speaking".

 

(As an aside, a superb classical musician I know, who can play anything but struggles to improvise, described the classical training as " being programmed like an unthinking machine to make noises based on the dots. Frankly computers and synthesisers can do it better now". I think he's being harsh on himself, but I get the point)

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Richard R
Typo

[zbd1960]

5 minutes ago, Richard R said:

 

Think of it like learning to read words. As a four year old you could express most of what you wanted verbally, but learning to read and write came afterwards. As you got older you could express more complex ideas verbally and your reading and writing hopefully kept improving until well into your teens. 

 

I suspect that the reason we think of music differently is becuase of the classical world's emphasis on being able to sight-read and play what someone else has scored. So reading has to come before "speaking".

 

(As an aside, a superb classical musician I know, who can play anything but struggles to improvise, described the classical training as " being programmed like an unthinking machine to make noises based on the dots. Frankly computers and synthesisers can do it better now". I think he's being harsh on himself, but I get the point)

 

Some classical musicians do improvise, it's just that in many of the genres they play, it is not a requirement. For example, organists are trained to improvise from day 1 and it's a fundamental part of getting your ARCO or FRCO (Associate/Fellow of Royal College of Organists). Baroque soloists are also expected to improvise, but it's mostly decorative improvisation. The cadenzas in classical concertos were originally improvised, and some players do, but often they learn a cadenza created by another soloist from the past.  

[Dad3353]

There is a quantum leap in difficulty between reading monophonic lines (essentially bass, or solo voice, or brass, with exceptions...), and polyphonic lines (keys, guitar, some choral works, drums...). getting one pitch right at a time compared to getting several pitches right, is a challenge, when learning. In that sense, bass is an easy one, and it's a reasonable excuse for a guitarist to say 'Thanks, but No thanks'. 

 

Edited August 25, 2022 by Dad3353