Xotic XJ1T Repair - Strip to fix - Wax 'au natural' or re-paint?

[benh]

I actually prefer the contrasting grain of the cover! Great job 🙂 it's going to look great when oiled.

[carlsim]

2 minutes ago, benh said:

I actually prefer the contrasting grain of the cover! Great job 🙂 it's going to look great when oiled.

I hope so… the control cover is clearly newer wood so I may have to try and get that a bit darker to match as I oil the guitar… 

[MrSpace]

Looks great. Watching with interest and envy... 

[Andyjr1515]

It's been suggested that I do a bit of a precis / clarification of one or two of the myriad finishing techniques available, especially relating to Tru-oil slurry filling (I call it slurry and wipe), Tru Oil used for a satin final finish (Slurry and buff) and also wiping on old-fashioned polyurethane varnish (specifically, Ronseal Hardglaze).  I won't cover the use of Tru-oil for a gloss finish as I don't really do that variation although I have seen very impressive results from folks who do.

 

For natural wood, I tend to use Tru Oil as my filling and preparation method (if it's going to be glossed) or as my preparation and finish method (if it's going to be satin)

 

Tru-oil 'Slurry and Wipe' for filling and preparing

 

Take this camphor laurel top.  Now that's what I call a filling job!

 

Yes - some of those voids go right through to the other side!

 

I use Tru-oil as the Wet part of a 'Wet and Dry' sanding job.  And, personally, I start fairly coarse - 250 grit emery cloth or even 120!!  I basically slosh the Tru Oil on and sand to my heart's content:

 

Very quickly I end up with a wood-dust /Tru-oil sludge.  once I have plenty of sludge, I use an old credit card to get that sludge into all of the voids.  I let that dry overnight.

 

The next day, I repeat, adding more sludge into the remaining void depth.

 

This is day 2:

 

I then move to finer paper - around 350 grit and do the same again, but this time, I wipe the excess sludge off while it is still wet with kitchen roll / old t-shirt.  Maybe a repeat after it's dried.  It gets me here:

 

And, for Tru-oil Slurry and Wipe, this is where I would stop, let it fully dry and then varnish it.  Sneak preview (I'll cover a couple of poyurethane 'bedroom builders' methods tomorrow), this is good old fashioned Ronseal Hardglaze wiped on:

 

 

 

Tru Oil for Slurry and Buff Satin Finish

 

...is exactly the same as above, but you keep going.  The slurry and wipe is done a few more times with finer and finer paper.  And the 'wipe' is now used to remove pretty much all of the oil

 

Then the final couple of goes, is Tru-oil with c 400 grit wet and dry, but now I not only wipe it all off, but I then vigorously buff it as dry as I can.  I usually let it fully dry overnight and repeat.

 

What you are left with is a silky smooth surface that is protected, but feels VERY organic to the touch.  This is a Bubinga bass done that way.  8-9 years of playing later, it still looks and feels the same!

 

I do pretty much ALL of my necks using this method.

 

There are some if's and buts involved and some practice.  However, the above methods require neither fancy equipment nor facilities.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carlsim]

That finish on the guitar with the tru oil and hard glaze looks amazing! 
do you feel any grain through that or is it completely flat??

[Andyjr1515]

9 minutes ago, carlsim said:

That finish on the guitar with the tru oil and hard glaze looks amazing! 
do you feel any grain through that or is it completely flat??

The top started relatively flat, but as the varnish fully cured, it revealed just a hint of the underlying figuring.

 

We left the back hatch deliberately part filled.  You get an idea here of just how much the tru-oil slurry was able to fill on the top  :

 

The back sapele was given a relatively light gloss.  I don't have shots of the original one, but this one of my own guitars...made from the 'spare wood' from this build shows how it's sunk into the grain.  Personally, I like this level of finish as it retains the organic feel of the woods:

 

 

I'll cover the varnishing - and options & limitations tomorrow if I get some time.

 

 

 

[carlsim]

so, first coat of Tru-Oil went on today and I'm really chuffed with the result so far. A light darkening of the wood which results in a nice, healthy looking lump of timber and the grain is filling and showing nicely.

 

One annoyance, the white / clear primer that is put on in the factory is so deeply embedded in the grain I have reached a point where I just cannot get rid of it. It is very subtle and if anything, adds a slight shimmer to areas of the grain so I can live with it. I cannot keep sanding and sanding as I have no idea how deep I will have to go. Ash has quite an open grain so I think I have to live with that one. A few more coats of tru-oil with wet and dry moving up through some grits and it will be ready for some wipe on poly! @Andyjr1515 I am hoping for a 'wipe on poly tutorial' to appear if you are able to!

 

So it is going well, the new ash control cavity looks lovely as well although is quite a bit lighter than the guitar body - I will try and darken it a bit by keep adding some extra coats of tru oil (any advice welcome here) but if not, a little contrast never hurt did it!

Edited September 23, 2022 by carlsim

[Owen]

Lovely, honest piece of wood. 

[BlueMoon]

Great job.

Very nice grain hidden under that original paint job, which the Tru-Oil will reveal to the full.

[PaulThePlug]

Nice... had a similar issue rescueing my J PJ Bitsa sanding the white primer off after a failed dip attempt... should lessen the apearance with a few more coats of oil, look like it's old but looked after rather than new...

[Andyjr1515]

OK - wiping on poly.

 

I've covered this is the past but it's worth covering again to also highlight some of the tweaks I tend to do now, especially as Ronseal have changed their formulation for their old-fashioned Hardglaze Polyurethane Varnish to reduce the volatiles a touch, and that has changed some of the things I tend to do.

 

Generally, as said above, I basically prepare the timber for varnishing with the Tru-oil Slurry and Wipe or Slurry and Buff methods.  The good thing about the Ronseal Hardglaze is that it's not reactive with what is on the wood in the first place - nitro, for example, will bubble and craze at the drop of a hat and I HATE working with fussy finishes!!

 

It's easy to use but, like all of these sorts of things, it's the little tips and tricks that make the difference.  So here are the tips and tricks I've picked up along the way

 

*   So once the Tru-oil has properly dried (1 week minimum, preferably 2) I get out the Ronseal Hardglaze and White Spirits.

 

 

*It is important to thin the varnish for wipe on or similar methods.  The idea is to put on multiple THIN coats.  I used to thin with up to 50% white spirits.  I find, with the new formulation, 20% - 30% is the highest that I usually go to.  I start at 20% and see how I get on.

 

*Nowadays, I use one of two methods

                        - the artists fan brush seen above, which I usually get from Hobby Craft:

 

or

                       - A pad made from strips of old T shirt, or the excellent Halfords Non-lint Polishing Cloths pictured, wrapped inside some more cloth with a rubber band like French Polishers, etc, use:

 

 

* I am scrupulous about dust control.  The 'Glass' microfibre cloth in the first pic is what I use to wipe the surface just before a coat of varnish.  EVERY time. 

 

* I place the guitar or bass body on a box or similar so I can access the upper surface and sides and turn the whole thing round by moving the box, not touching the bass body.  A shoe box is ideal!  :

 

* I varnish back and sides first, then when dry, top and sides

 

*  Either using the brush, wiped of excess each time, or the cloth pad, squeezed of the major excess, I brush or wipe in full length strips before recharging the brush or pad to do the next strip. The direction is always along the grain and with a slight overlap.  

 

*I gently run my finger round the bottom edge to wipe off any drips that might be forming:

 

* I let it dry, then turn it over and do the other main face and sides.

 

* Thinning the varnish will make it dry faster.  I tend to manage one side first thing in the morning and flip it over and do the other side in the evening.  After less than a week, the top and back will have had at least 5 coats each and the sides 10 coats

 

* If the coats are thin enough, there shouldn't be an accumulation of ripples.  But if there are - or loads of dust buggies - then every 3 coats or so once dry, I lightly sand wet (with water this time) with 2000 grit emery or similar using a cork sanding block.  I make sure that all of the slurry is wiped off and the surface is completely dry before applying the next coat.

 

*  After 5 or 6 coats, it's time for the final 'flattening' (the above wet and dry treatment) which is to get the surface flaw-free, and then I do a couple of wiped coats to get the gloss.  NOTE - it is the last couple of coats that gives you the gloss.  With polyurethane varnish of this type you DO NOT BUFF.  If you do, the buffing will scrub off that glossy layer and expose the sanded layers beneath.

 

*  If the final coats don't look right, I simply flatten with the wet and dry again and do the last couple of gloss coats again.  I stop when I get a coat that looks OK.

 

*  I then leave it for at least 2 weeks (preferably 3) and give it a final polish with Meguiers Ultimate Compound from Halfords.

 

The bass I will be bringing to the Southwest Bass Bash was done with the above method (this one using the wipe method rather than the fan brush):

 

 

From memory, this had around 10 wipe coats each side and probably 3 final 'flatten then wipe the last couple of gloss coats' attempts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Maude]

19 minutes ago, Andyjr1515 said:

 I am scrupulous about dust control.  The 'Glass' microfibre cloth in the first pic is what I use to wipe the surface just before a coat of varnish.  EVERY time. 

 

Excellent write up as always @Andyjr1515, and it always amazes me the finish you can achieve without 'professional', so to speak, finishing equipment. 

 

Have you tried using tackcloths for dust control? Starchem ones are pretty good, and cheap. Should be able to get a ten pack for a fiver or 50 for around £15.

You can use them over and over if there's little contamination, just pop it in an air tight bag ready for next time. 

[Maude]

7 hours ago, carlsim said:

 

What a lovely piece of wood. I like big, wide grain like that. 

[JGTay]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

Have you tried using tackcloths for dust control?

I find tackcloths can leave behind a residue which sometimes shows, I do the same as Andy, use microfiber cloths and control the environment as much as possible. 

[Andyjr1515]

1 hour ago, Maude said:

Have you tried using tackcloths for dust control? Starchem ones are pretty good, and cheap. Should be able to get a ten pack for a fiver or 50 for around £15.

You can use them over and over if there's little contamination, just pop it in an air tight bag ready for next time. 

As @JGTay also says, tackcloths do exactly what they say...they leave tack all over the surface.  It sounds like madness, I know.  And it is madness.

 

[carlsim]

2 hours ago, Maude said:

What a lovely piece of wood. I like big, wide grain like that. 

I was really please when I saw the wood. The guy at Xotic told me they use the pretty ones for natural finishes so I wasn’t holding out much hope but I was well chuffed when I had it back to the wood. If I can get a finish anywhere near to @Andyjr1515’s bass in the picture, it will be a successful project!

Edited September 24, 2022 by carlsim

[carlsim]

@Andyjr1515thank you so much for the clear instructions and detailed description. 
you truly are one helpful BCer! 
having done my first oil and slurry, I don’t think it is going to need loads of this before I start the poly… I’m going to work up to 800 grit with tru oil (I started today with 240) which should see it nice and smooth ready for the poly. I’m still not sure how glossy I want it but I suppose I can stop when I get to something I like the look of! 
to be honest, I quite like it now after one coat of tru oil!! But I think I want the extra protection that the poly will offer so will go that route.

again, thank you for all your help

along the way! 
 

[Maude]

11 hours ago, JGTay said:

I find tackcloths can leave behind a residue which sometimes shows, I do the same as Andy, use microfiber cloths and control the environment as much as possible. 

 

10 hours ago, Andyjr1515 said:

As @JGTay also says, tackcloths do exactly what they say...they leave tack all over the surface.  It sounds like madness, I know.  And it is madness.

 

Seems odd but I'm not doubting it. Maybe they don't like wood or the slightly tacky nature of not fully cured wood finishes. 

I've never had that issue in the automotive world. 

[carlsim]

Just had a look at my first dry coat - I am a bit disappointed with the small amount of sanding scratches that I can now see - what the oil has exposed and wondering now if I:

 

1 - treat it as more of worn look - it is a used guitar after all!

2 - go back to the sandpaper (will need loads as tru oil really gums it up!)

 

it's not terrible, only noticeable in certain light and localised (I think) to the areas I noticed which had the white primer showing in the grain I mentioned before plus another area which will be covered by the scratchplate. As I do a bit more oil and slurry I am hoping that they will fade - or am I delusional?

[Andyjr1515]

9 hours ago, Maude said:

 

Seems odd but I'm not doubting it. Maybe they don't like wood or the slightly tacky nature of not fully cured wood finishes. 

I've never had that issue in the automotive world. 

I'm probably (ie I am sure I am) over generalising. 

 

But certainly, the ones that Tonetech sold a few years ago, Tak Rag, (maybe they've changed the product, but the packaging looks the same on today's web site), left visible tacky residue bits on the surface of a number of guitars and basses in my early days.  I stopped using tack rags and the problems stopped.  

 

And work-wise, I used to run a number of aluminium extrusion manufacturing and powder coating plants.  In the coating plants, we used 'industry standard' tack cloths as part of the process immediately prior to the racks going into the paint booths.  Paint quality rejects were high and I organised a full study of what was going wrong where.  It was the tack rags.  They tried a few alternatives but ended up - to everyone's surprise - switching to decorators pasting brushes.  Rejects were reduced by 75%.

 

I'm sure that there are other factors in both cases but, for my guitar and bass finishing, dust buggies - which were the bane of my finish jobs - pretty much disappeared as soon as I moved to using the glass-grade micro fibre cloths and away from the variety of tack cloth types that I'd previously tried.   

[Andyjr1515]

9 hours ago, carlsim said:

Just had a look at my first dry coat - I am a bit disappointed with the small amount of sanding scratches that I can now see - what the oil has exposed and wondering now if I:

 

1 - treat it as more of worn look - it is a used guitar after all!

2 - go back to the sandpaper (will need loads as tru oil really gums it up!)

 

it's not terrible, only noticeable in certain light and localised (I think) to the areas I noticed which had the white primer showing in the grain I mentioned before plus another area which will be covered by the scratchplate. As I do a bit more oil and slurry I am hoping that they will fade - or am I delusional?

If you've followed my build threads, I often mention that I do an initial finish coat quite often as a 'reveal' coat.  The finish soaks into scratches, etc showing them even when they were invisible previously.

 

I would treat that first coat as a reveal coat.  When you do the finish sanding, go with the grain and progress carefully down to the finer grades so that each grade is removing the scratches left by the previous one.

 

Gives you a chance to get rid of the missed primer too...

 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Andyjr1515

[carlsim]

So after a second coat of tru oil on Saturday morning, the sanding scratches are nowhere near as bad as I thought so I light dry sand with 240 W&D and another smidge of oil and looking much better! I also managed to reduce the primer left in the grain to next to nothing as well.

 

Another bash with 240 slurry, then 400 and 800 should get it nice and smooth before the poly goes on. 

 

I must admit this finishing malarky is not easy so kudos goes to @Andyjr1515 for the finishes you achieve - patience is a virtue in this game. Having said that, I'm pretty pleased so far, the colour in the photos is a lot lighter than real life and it is taking on a nice amber-y hue to the colour which is nice. Really pleased with the ash cover as well - it is a bit lighter than the body but there isn't much I think I can do at this stage. I do have some tinted aged lacquer sitting in a box (but this is a nitro lacquer) so may sand back and bash some on there - see how that looks... I have some scraps that I can practice on as well...

Anyway... will sort a few minor scratches on the back later and then onwards!

Edited September 26, 2022 by carlsim

[Richard R]

Looking good! I wouldn't worry about the ash cover being a different colour. If it's finished to the same high standard you're already achieving then it will just look like a deliberate design choice. 

[Owen]

That is cracking. 

[carlsim]

If you look closely in the pics you can still see where the white primer is embedded in the grain (the long distinctive patterns). It is annoying but in all honesty, barely noticeable and at this stage I would rather not try and sand more of it off as I have no idea (given ash has quite an open grain) how much I will need to sand to clear it. 

 

I guess this is one of the issues with taking a painted bass back to the wood! You can barely make it out and have get very close to even notice it. I'm going to treat it as a special property of the wood!

😀