Compact mixing desks - what are you using?

[EBS_freak]

19 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

You might struggle for volume Al, they aren't headphone outs they are balanced line but just use TRS jacks instead of XLR's, I have a set of six short jack to XLR leads that I use to convert to XLR. They do have enough signal to make a sound through the headphones but the P2 gives you more volume, a better impedance match and better sound.

This

[Al Krow]

On 02/11/2022 at 11:27, Phil Starr said:

And now you are at it Al at a quick look I might have gone for this, four more mic pre's and proper sliders. Where's the drooling emoji

 

It does look good! But is there any noticeable latency on a digital mixer vs an analogue one?

[EBS_freak]

14 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

It does look good! But is there any noticeable latency on a digital mixer vs an analogue one?

Theres no latency on analogue as there is no analogue>digital conversion then processing (and then digital > analogue conversion).

 

On modern digital mixers we are now at a stage where it's generally sub 3ms whatever you are using. Most of the common mixers lay between the  0.7ms-1.5ms range.

 

I know that pedants will say there's still latency but it's microseconds, (one millionth of a second) not even milliseconds.

Edited November 4, 2022 by EBS_freak

[DaytonaRik]

Back to the original question - I started with an XR18 which did the job admirably but still led to a load of cabling what with downstage monitors, mics and FOH feeds with upstage backline and kit mics.  I upgraded to an X32 Rack which usually lives upstage where by bass backline doesn't as I moved to a Valeton Bass Dapper, and solved the cable issue by adding both an SD8 and SD16 stage boxes.  

 

The SD8 lives centre downstage and takes care of vocal mics,  wedges and FoH feeds, whilst the SD16 handles all backline and drum mics from a centre upstage location.  Both connect via a single shielded RJ45 cable so XLR cable runs are neater, shorter and generally just easier.  By utilising some clever routing I can also leave my wireless RX upstage but route the direct signal to an output on the SD8 and have my Dapper pedal connected then it's output returned via an SD8 input...neat!

 

We also feed multiple desk channels for each guitarist from a single mic - one for FoH that isn't sent to any monitor channels and a second that doesn't go the FoH but is limited for monitoring purposes so that when either guitarist launches into a solo it doesn't tear heads off and/or swamp the monitor mixes!!!  These monitor only channels can also be EQ'd differently (if needed) to avoid feedback problems.

 

Edited November 4, 2022 by DaytonaRik

[Chienmortbb]

41 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Theres no latency on analogue as there is no analogue>digital conversion then processing (and then digital > analogue conversion).

 

On modern digital mixers we are now at a stage where it's generally sub 3ms whatever you are using. Most of the common mixers lay between the  0.7ms-1.5ms range.

 

I know that pedants will say there's still latency but it's microseconds, (one millionth of a second) not even milliseconds.

Yes, pedant alert, there are phase shifts in analogue mixers and that is effectively a delay. As a designer of digital circuits in a former life, what we call latency in the Audio world is called propagation delay in the digital world. However, you are correct that the problem IS in the digital world. We have to be careful with some delay is useful when added as an effect, but only when compared to the dry signal.

 

Latency is not really much of an issue for bass, IMHO, especially for those of us that stay clear of the dusty end and do not have lots of digits in the chain. For what it's worth, I use a Smoothound and the Latency has not been a problem. However, I don't use any form of digital for monitoring.  For a singer, especially a female singer, it could be catastrophic, especially for monitoring.

 

With the problems of digital mixers, you might ask "why bother". MY Ui16 is the size of a stage box with the same number of in/outs. It has 12 mic line inputs, plus up to 6 AUX outputs. So I can mic or DI the whole 5-piece band, including drums.

 

I have to say that I now wonder how much delay is in my Soundcraft Ui16  (reaches for his digital 'scope).

[51m0n]

In context sound moves 1 foot in 1 ms give or take.

 

[Woodinblack]

34 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

In context sound moves 1 foot in 1 ms give or take.

 

 

Or about 0.8 cubits per moment, if you prefer it in older measurements.

[Chienmortbb]

19 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Or about 0.8 cubits per moment, if you prefer it in older measurements.

I never did that bit of the.course. They wanted 200 Groats so I gnawed on a wild boar bone, thought about it , and reported them to the Sheriff of Nottingham as Tax Avoiders. 

[Chienmortbb]

59 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

In context sound moves 1 foot in 1 ms give or take.

 

Good to know but I will have to check that.

[51m0n]

On 05/11/2022 at 12:33, Chienmortbb said:

Good to know but I will have to check that.

Check away, it's common sound engineering knowledge

 

If precision is your thing 0.343m per ms

Edited November 7, 2022 by 51m0n

[BigRedX]

39 minutes ago, 51m0n said:

Check away, it's common sound engineering knowledge

 

If precision is your thing 0.343m per ms

 

Except in the real world it doesn't really work like that. 

 

Unfortunately for us the human brain is very good at a subconscious level at distinguishing between sounds that are delayed because they are coming from some distance away and those that are just being delayed. Even when the delay times are very small. That's why latency of over 10ms, caused by AD/DA conversions and wireless transmission, will be noticeable, and for many musicians completely distracting, whereas having the sound delayed by the same amount due to the listener being further away from the source is not as off-putting.

[Chienmortbb]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

Except in the real world it doesn't really work like that. 

 

Unfortunately for us the human brain is very good at a subconscious level at distinguishing between sounds that are delayed because they are coming from some distance away and those that are just being delayed. Even when the delay times are very small. That's why latency of over 10ms, caused by AD/DA conversions and wireless transmission, will be noticeable, and for many musicians completely distracting, whereas having the sound delayed by the same amount due to the listener being further away from the source is not as off-putting.

I wonder whether the finger to string contact when we are playing is somehow compensated by our brains in some way? I can understand a big delay being a problem for a singer, especially from monitors. However, with 10mS delay through my wireless and multi effects unit, I seem to I don't seem to notice it. Of course in that situation I only have one sound source, my rig,  except for the rest of the band. 

[51m0n]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

 

Except in the real world it doesn't really work like that. 

 

Unfortunately for us the human brain is very good at a subconscious level at distinguishing between sounds that are delayed because they are coming from some distance away and those that are just being delayed. Even when the delay times are very small. That's why latency of over 10ms, caused by AD/DA conversions and wireless transmission, will be noticeable, and for many musicians completely distracting, whereas having the sound delayed by the same amount due to the listener being further away from the source is not as off-putting.

 

Not quite

 

The human hearing system can detect delays between ears down to 3 or 4ms easily, some people even less. But as a direction finder more than anything. 

 

I don't know anyone really distracted by standing up to 10 feet from their amp. And that delay is just a fraction under 10ms.

[EBS_freak]

And if you have the delay piped into your ears (via IEMs) the delay is easier to perceive... and be off-putting!

[Chienmortbb]

11 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

And if you have the delay piped into your ears (via IEMs) the delay is easier to perceive... and be off-putting!

Of course, a digital wireless IEM would just make matters worse. Given the subjectively poor sound we hear on stage (assuming the stage is NOT silent), how good/expensive does an IEM channel need to be worthwhile?

 

I used one of those low cost Ch70* systems once and the sound quality was more than adequate, with a decent set of "buds". What let it down was that build quality AND the fact that it was on an overcrowded frequency band.

 

I once borrowed a Shure Ch70* mic system for use on an exhibition stand, thanks to the kind people at Shure. It was unusable as that band was swamped n the exhibition hall. Hence, I never use anything in that band now.

 

*Ch70 or Channel 70 is the licence free UHF band covering the frequencies 863-863 MHz.

[BigRedX]

16 hours ago, 51m0n said:

 

Not quite

 

The human hearing system can detect delays between ears down to 3 or 4ms easily, some people even less. But as a direction finder more than anything. 

 

I don't know anyone really distracted by standing up to 10 feet from their amp. And that delay is just a fraction under 10ms.

 

That's exactly what I was trying to say. When you stand 10 feet away from your cabs your brain knows this due to the "ambiance" of the sound and the fact that you can see you are standing some distance from the source, and somehow everything is OK. If you are standing right next to your rig, or even worse you are using IEM and the signal is also delayed by 10ms it sounds all wrong, because the signal should be instantaneous, but it's not.

[EBS_freak]

@ChienmortbbAs with everything... thats a "that depends". There will be some latency with the A/D D/A conversion - but the top systems can now do that sub 2ms. So the tradeoff is no compander, better sounding feed for minimal introduction in latency. Most of the consumer IEM products are circa 7ms+ though... which is significant.

 

Like most things, you get what you pay for. Having used decent IEM systems, I would say for me, the low cost systems dont cut it. Likewise, with channel 70, it's potluck - typically they are ok... but if you start playing areas where there's multiple AV devices being deployed, then yeah, crap shoot.

Edited November 8, 2022 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

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Edited November 8, 2022 by Al Krow
Posted on the wrong thread - since moved 😊 ​

[EBS_freak]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Wrong thread! 😊

Its defo heading towards a crossover...

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Wrong thread! 😊

It is a b when you get your screw pot out and keep pulling out BA and UNC. 

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

It is a b when you get your screw pot out and keep pulling out BA and UNC. 

 

Haha, sorry! I meant my post was on the wrong thread and I've since reposted it on the right one.

 

But yeah - be good if we can keep the focus of discussion on here to compact mixer desks 😄

[Al Krow]

Just come across the PreSonus StudioLive 16.0.2 desk. This also looks really good. It's in the same price bracket as the StudioMaster Digilive 16, but with greater direct controls. Effectively the same number of aux outputs as on the Studiomaster unit (i.e. 6) but configured as 2 monitor plus 4 aux. Dunno if any folk are using PreSonus kit with their bands?

 

 

 

 

Edited November 9, 2022 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

And for less than half the price of the PreSonus and Studiomaster mixers, this from Behringer also looks like it ticks a lot of boxes not least in terms of value for money:

 

[Chienmortbb]

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

And for less than half the price of the PreSonus and Studiomaster mixers, this from Behringer also looks like it ticks a lot of boxes not least in terms of value for money:

 

To be honest compared to the RCF M18, Behringer X series and Soundcraft Ui series, that is not very compact,

[51m0n]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

To be honest compared to the RCF M18, Behringer X series and Soundcraft Ui series, that is not very compact,

Agreed 100%

 

If it has faders it is not compact, and can't compete for features per cubic cm either