JPJ Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 8 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: Ohh, i just remembered i have a Korg NanoKontrol2. It’s got real sliders but is very small. I wonder if i can utilise that. I believe you can but I think you have to understand Midi to make it work? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 14 minutes ago, JPJ said: I believe you can but I think you have to understand Midi to make it work? Cool. Im already using midi live. I wouldn’t say im an expert but if it will work, i can figure it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 I have controlled the X18 over midi briefly when I had a different surface. There is also a standalone project for that (interfacing various surfaces with the mixer), but sort of stopped that when i got the X_Touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 6 minutes ago, Woodinblack said: I have controlled the X18 over midi briefly when I had a different surface. There is also a standalone project for that (interfacing various surfaces with the mixer), but sort of stopped that when i got the X_Touch. It’s not something id really want to do, i want to stay wireless, but i can see the advantage of having something small like that sitting on my keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 30, 2023 Share Posted May 30, 2023 7 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: It’s not something id really want to do, i want to stay wireless, but i can see the advantage of having something small like that sitting on my keyboard. These things always give you another rabbit hole to go down.. https://www.osimidi.com/stage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Starr Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 10 hours ago, dave_bass5 said: Since my last post Ive watched a few videos on the Ui and it does look cool. I would be worried about the wall wart as far as damage goes, but I’ve got many devices that already use them. Then I came across the RCF M18. This appeals to me more. Inputs and outputs are more than adequate. Has the right number of Aux outs (yay, one guitarist is going to try IEM at the next rehearsal. I’m getting there) and I like that it seems smaller. It’s lacking some of the fancy stuff the others have, but seems perfect for us. Any thoughts? I appreciate this has been discussed already. I looked at all of the available options except the Zoom which was released later than the others. The M18 is a lot less versatile than the others being designed for just one job but on the plus side it does that job really well. It's designed for the gigging band. Everything (router, power supply) is in one box and everything works. I've never had a dropout from the router even when I forget the external antenna and it will work from a couple of rooms away, though at gigs you always have line of sight Rock solid. On top of that it sounds really good, I didn't get to try the others for sound but when I swapped out my old Yamaha MG mixer there was a really noticeable improvement in the sound from the mics. The control software is where it really scores though, everything is where you would expect it to be and the workflow is well thought out for a gigging band. Nothing is more than two clicks away, the panic button to get you back to FOH is on every screen and all the buttons are big so hitting them when playing is a breeze. All of the volume sliders have a 1db tap feature so just tapping the slider adjusts it up or down a notch so no chance of clumsy over adjustment when you are tweaking in the middle of a song. Everything like eq and compression have a 'simple' setting so you can have fully parametric or bass,mid,treble on the tones or a simple one knob compression if you want or full control if you prefer. (at a recent gig I got a friend of a friend and a professional sound engineer to mix as he was at the party and looking bored, he was trying to beat the programmed one knob compression and reckoned it was well implemented). Best of all everything you need to twiddle is big on the screen so easy to see and adjust under live conditions. Basically there is real attention to detail and for a small live band it is really well sorted. The down side is that they have made some decisions for you. There are two dedicated instrument channels and they are the only ones with high impedance inputs and the full suite of amp and speaker sims. We use external multi-fx anyway so I've never used them live. There are only really eight true mic channels (none of my bands have ever used more than four vocal mics so not an issue for me, but you'd struggle with a choir) We have electronic drums but I personally wouldn't use more than 3 mics on a kit anyway, just for set up time issues. The issue is that if you were using the M18 with a new band you'd have to plan where you plugged things in, you can't treat all the input channels as the same. For me it's a machine for a particular job, I play in a duo and have never played in anything other than 3,4 or 5 piece pub bands. I rarely have anyone mixing FOH and set up and break down time needs to be quick and simple. I'm playing bass, mixing and dealing with all the technical stuff for the band so simplicity and functionality is king. This just works for me, for a small gigging band with a band member mixing it's a no-brainer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 13 hours ago, Woodinblack said: Occasionally, very occasionally for big things we have been known to mic the drums up, at that point we need 12 mic XLR inputs. This was the reason I went for the Soundcraft. I can do four vocal mics, two guitars, bass plus 5 channels for drums. We were about to do an outdoor event with a serious PA supplied by a DJ. I had to mix all the above and feed it into the L/R unbalanced inputs on a Pioneer D/J mixer (I ran balanced to just before the Pioneer then used two Sowter line transformers to convert to unbalanced at the Pioneer). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Phil Starr said: I personally wouldn't use more than 3 mics on a kit anyway, just for set up time issues. Agreed, Glynn John sorted that years ago. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chienmortbb Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 2 hours ago, Phil Starr said: This just works for me, for a small gigging band with a band member mixing it's a no-brainer. You have to make the choices that work for you. Had we not had the annual open air gig (June 21st), I might have made a different choice. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Yes, we do the outdoor gig about 4 times a year, and then a couple of other villiage fete type things that we do the drums for. Plus when we do that I record off the desk to multitrack, only time I can really record with good sound Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) Thanks for all the GAS, I mean replies 😂. I still want the RCF M18, especially after Phil’s fantastic review, but stil have a few niggles. I tried the App on my iPad Pro last night and really liked it, but it did crash once. Not a big deal, but I see it hasn’t been updated for about 5 years. That makes me a bit nervous goi g forward. The biggest plus for the M18 for me is the app. Might be a non issue. The amount of mic inputs wasn’t an issue until today. Guitarist is well up for the IEM route now, but we have discussed setting up and ambient mic. I currently use a Behringer B2, which has to be phantom powered, going in to my sub mixer, but I’m planning on letting the PA mixer do all that once I get it and I’ll ditch the sub mixer. With that, plus the 5 vocal mics I think I might reach the limit sooner than expected. I found an old iPad Air at home which worked ok with the stock Behringer app, although I guess I really should get to know Mix station. The biggest plus for the M18 though, is I can get it this week. The X18 seems out of stock everywhere until July. Thomanns seem to think it’s just a week or so, but we know how that works. I may just order the X18 from Thomanns and see how it goes. Next gig isn’t until 8th July (we have one this weekend but I wouldn’t use it as it’s too soon). Edited May 31, 2023 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 If you are almost at the limit of what something has it would certainly put me off buying it - you are always going to find a situation that needs more than you have. That is why I also have an XR16 sitting down there! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 9 minutes ago, Woodinblack said: If you are almost at the limit of what something has it would certainly put me off buying it - you are always going to find a situation that needs more than you have. That is why I also have an XR16 sitting down there! Yeah, that makes sense. I’ve been using our current Begringer desk for almost 9 years. Various bands, but this one has the most mics. If it wasn’t for possible move to IEM for some, it wouldn’t be an issue. I would still take my Sub mixer as a back up. It wouldn’t handle everything but it’s better than nothing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 54 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: I would still take my Sub mixer as a back up. It wouldn’t handle everything but it’s better than nothing. Probably a wise move - I don't take a backup for the mixer, its probably the only thing I trust! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 There is still a lot to take in, but am i correct that with both the X18 and M18, i can use the phones out as a stereo aux, with almost as much control as the normal Aux’s have? Id have my keys going in in stereo (so 4 channels), and I’d like to have my own IEM mix with the keys in stereo, and vocals etc in mono (for now). This seems possible but if one doesn't do it then thats out of the running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 1 minute ago, Woodinblack said: Probably a wise move - I don't take a backup for the mixer, its probably the only thing I trust! Probably down the line i would stop taking it, but to start off id keep it handy. Our speakers are powered so it would make a good back up, at least to get the keys and some vocals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 34 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said: There is still a lot to take in, but am i correct that with both the X18 and M18, i can use the phones out as a stereo aux, with almost as much control as the normal Aux’s have? Id have my keys going in in stereo (so 4 channels), and I’d like to have my own IEM mix with the keys in stereo, and vocals etc in mono (for now). This seems possible but if one doesn't do it then thats out of the running. With the XR18 you choose what to route to the headphone out but you do not get an extra bus. So for our drummer who uses wired IEM with no amplifier (Behringer P1 I think which is just a passive volume control) I map bus 4 to the monitor out (headphone) instead of aux 4. In your situation, you would be using four input channels for your keyboards (2 keyboards with a left and right) but only two aux outputs to give you stereo left and right in-ears. This leaves you the possibility for four more mono mixes or another stereo mix and two mono mixes etc etc. I must confess I really do not see the need for a stereo IEM mix unless your doing some really weird prog style side-to-side sweeps with your keys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 7 minutes ago, JPJ said: With the XR18 you choose what to route to the headphone out but you do not get an extra bus. So for our drummer who uses wired IEM with no amplifier (Behringer P1 I think which is just a passive volume control) I map bus 4 to the monitor out (headphone) instead of aux 4. In your situation, you would be using four input channels for your keyboards (2 keyboards with a left and right) but only two aux outputs to give you stereo left and right in-ears. This leaves you the possibility for four more mono mixes or another stereo mix and two mono mixes etc etc. I must confess I really do not see the need for a stereo IEM mix unless your doing some really weird prog style side-to-side sweeps with your keys. Thanks, that makes sense. Im not aiming to get more Aux’s, just to make sure i can get stereo out of the phones. I use a P2 (sometimes a P1) wired. The stereo thing is a way of getting the sounds i program in, and use at home, to sound the same at gigs. I play/practice at home with headphones, in stereo obviously, so i want that at gigs. Im not doing any sweeps, and in fact on the whole i dont care if FOH is stereo or not (it is though), but playing Piano for instance sounds a lot more natural having the left and right spread in my ears. Same with Leslie swirl from my Neo Vent. There is also the danger of phase cancelation when going down to mono which i have heard at our rehearsal studios on occasion. Bottom line though, im happy with my current monitoring, but if im going to spend almost £600 it cant be a compromise or step back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJ Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 That all makes sense to me, I hadn’t thought about the left/right hand thing. Only one question, if you are a keyboard player why are you hanging out here with a bunch of bassists or is it just your left hand hanging out here? 🤣 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Dave also plays bass guitar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, JPJ said: That all makes sense to me, I hadn’t thought about the left/right hand thing. Only one question, if you are a keyboard player why are you hanging out here with a bunch of bassists or is it just your left hand hanging out here? 🤣 Haha. Have you tried to leave BC? 😂 I do plan on going back to bass as soon as I find time, but just having a break. Actually, as I’m also a bass player my left hand is very inactive most of the time. I cover my lack of ability to do two things at once with the notion that I’m staying out of his way 😎 Ok , last question before I pull the trigger. When using the app, does it save everything to the mixer or just the app? Reason I’m asking is I can’t figure out how someone else can have control with a different device other than by me sending the set up file to them. Is that how it works or does the mixer transmit the layout etc? Edited May 31, 2023 by dave_bass5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 59 minutes ago, EBS_freak said: Dave also plays bass guitar. Some may argue that point 😂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 If you mean the XAirs, It saves in the mixer, apart from spare scene files you can download but probably only of use in multiple bands 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave_bass5 Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said: If you mean the XAirs, It saves in the mixer, apart from spare scene files you can download but probably only of use in multiple bands Yeah, I’m going to order the X18. Cheers. Good to know. Now the long wait starts as I have no idea when it will turn up. At least I can play around with Mixer Station in the meantime. Thanks all for the help 👏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodinblack Posted May 31, 2023 Share Posted May 31, 2023 Yeh, I have to do that too, my gigging iPad died, and I assume the new (old) one I got on eBay will probably come with an updated OS! I am on the beta test for the new software, it's looking good but still going to be a while Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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