Compact mixing desks - what are you using?

[LLOYDWT]

According to Rafael at A&H, the disconnecting of the mixing app when it's not in focus is a design choice. I've asked what the thinking behind this is; I'll update if I get a response.

 

[Woodinblack]

Seems an odd choice to make - when gigging I flip backwards and forwards between the X-Air screen and my set list app on my iPad all the time. It would be a pain to have to reconnect to a mixer when i did that (in fact it would be a non starter)

[LLOYDWT]

2 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Seems an odd choice to make - when gigging I flip backwards and forwards between the X-Air screen and my set list app on my iPad all the time. It would be a pain to have to reconnect to a mixer when i did that (in fact it would be a non starter)

 

This is the main issue for me too; cycling between mixing and OnSong whilst playing, and mixing and Tidal for music between sets is going to be how I want to use this mixer 99% of the time. I've cited this as an example to A&H and asked what their reasoning is; I literally can't think of a single reason you'd want the mixer to disconnect automatically.

[EBS_freak]

It'll be a bandwidth and power consumption choice Im sure. No use processing if it's not in focused and not there to be seen.

[Woodinblack]

32 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

It'll be a bandwidth and power consumption choice Im sure. No use processing if it's not in focused and not there to be seen.

 

Both of those arguments make no sense - does that mean while it is showing the user interface it doesn't have enough processing to mix, if it does, what is the problem? A UI should be a result of data that already exists that it just has to send down a network port, and whatever processor that powers it is at least a decade newer than the processing the X18 - I can tell you from my work, the processing is way more impressive it was a decade ago. And power consumption, I can't think how that would be changed but unless it has an eco mode I am not sure why that would be a consideration on a mains powered device.

[LLOYDWT]

6 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Both of those arguments make no sense - does that mean while it is showing the user interface it doesn't have enough processing to mix, if it does, what is the problem? A UI should be a result of data that already exists that it just has to send down a network port, and whatever processor that powers it is at least a decade newer than the processing the X18 - I can tell you from my work, the processing is way more impressive it was a decade ago. And power consumption, I can't think how that would be changed but unless it has an eco mode I am not sure why that would be a consideration on a mains powered device.

 

Agreed, and considering the alternative to maintaining the connection in the background is to keeping a dedicated tablet on and running the app at all times, even if it were true, the current real-use case would be more resource intensive.

 

Even if there is a legitimate case for its functioning the way it currently does, I'd appreciate a toggle to have it function the way I'd prefer.

Edited September 11, 2023 by LLOYDWT

[BigRedX]

The problem is that mobile devices (tablets and phones) only have the illusion of being able to run multiple apps at once. Most will allow you to use them as a music player while running one other app in the foreground, but they are not properly multi-tasking like a real computer. Anything complex reloads in the background when you switch focus to it, hence the inability for them to run the mixer interface and crib sheet apps simultaneously.

[Woodinblack]

22 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

The problem is that mobile devices (tablets and phones) only have the illusion of being able to run multiple apps at once. Most will allow you to use them as a music player while running one other app in the foreground, but they are not properly multi-tasking like a real computer. Anything complex reloads in the background when you switch focus to it, hence the inability for them to run the mixer interface and crib sheet apps simultaneously.

 

That is partially true, but there are ways round it.

Currently with the Behringer X-Air software and a behringer X18, at a gig I can change freely between Songbook pro to see what song is coming up or lyrics etc and XAir to adjust something as and when it needs adjusting. There is no percieved delay between activity in either apps when I switch. So to me as a user, I don't really care what they were doing in the background, if anything, all I care about is that they are both available to me with no additional action when switching to them. And they are.

Any drop of of that level of functionality, regardless of how it is done, I would consider not very useable, especially in a more premium product, as this is my main gig time use of that software and mixer.

 

I would say I also have the XControl so I can adjust levels as I am going on in the gig, but I still use the app more near the start of the gig, or if I need to see levels and if there is any feedback or anything.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Both of those arguments make no sense - does that mean while it is showing the user interface it doesn't have enough processing to mix, if it does, what is the problem? A UI should be a result of data that already exists that it just has to send down a network port, and whatever processor that powers it is at least a decade newer than the processing the X18 - I can tell you from my work, the processing is way more impressive it was a decade ago. And power consumption, I can't think how that would be changed but unless it has an eco mode I am not sure why that would be a consideration on a mains powered device.

Both of the arguments do make sense - because they'll all make the app show as a large hog on resources... so when people look at why their mobile device is nearly dead on batteries and running hot when the device isn't being used for mixing, bingo, app gets bad name. This isn't to do with the mixing desk unit, which is mains powered... all the connections for the UI will be responses to requests initiated by the client device (the app). You could argue there is no point in keeping this processing overhead when the UI isn't even being presented to the end user.

 

Depending upon how the app has been implemented, it could also have a negative impact on the app which is in focus.

 

I don't know what your line of work is - but its also worth noting that it does matter what the processors of a few years look like. I know a lot of people with mixers that go into CEX to buy the cheapers ipad or whatever... just for use with mixers. You dont want to be running ipads that are costing as much as the mixer. Taking this into account, the app will have been designed to run on some very minimal spec stuff.  

Edited September 11, 2023 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

Edited the above as I just didn't English at all

[Woodinblack]

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Both of the arguments do make sense - because they'll all make the app show us as a large hog on resources... so when people look at why their mobile device is nearly dead on batteries and running hot when the device isn't being used for mixing, bingo, app gets bad name.

 

as previously mentioned, the app doesn't run full time in the background, so it isn't a resource hog. Because my iPad is old, if i use the X-Air app full time on the screen for a whole 3 hour gig, chances are it would be dead before the end of the gig. But I don't, because I switch away from it.

 

 

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

This isn't to do with the mixing desk unit, which is mains powered... all the connections for the UI will be responses to requests initiated by the client device (the app). You could argue there is no point in keeping this processing overhead when the UI isn't even being presented to the end user.

 

Ah, ok so you are talking about the processing of the iPad. Almost certainlyt he client device is a combination of streams and request / responses. I would not only argue that there is no point keeping this going when the UI isn't presented, I would absolutely believe there is no reason to show this when the UI isn't being presented. But this is the iPads job, not the mixers job - you can send what you want to an iPad, if it has put the application into the background it isn't getting much time and it sure as hell can't make an interface update.

However, the second it does come back, it can. And this is what the issue is for me.

 

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Depending upon how the app has been implemented, it could also have a negative impact on the app which is in focus.

 

Absolutely it can't, because apple have taken care of that and it has nothing to do with the app design. You can't app design your way out of that one *.

 

 

16 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

I don't know what your line of work is - but its also worth noting that it doesnt matter what the processors of a few years look back. I know a lot of people with mixers that go into CEX to buy the cheapers ipad or whatever... just for use with mixers. You dont want to be running ipads that are costing as much as the mixer. Taking this into account, the app will have been designed to run on some very minimal spec stuff.  

 

Again, this is a misunderstanding with what you said, I assumed you were talking about the mixer, as the iPad client software is netiher here or there from a power or processsing point of view.

 

What I want to know (and I haven't used this mixer), is why cant A&H design an app or interface to their mixer that is at least as responsive to the users requirements as behrnger did a decade ago?

I mean, the fancy stufff looks good, but if when I switch away from the app to a lyric app and then switch back, I have to reconnect somehow in a way that people are suggesting, then it is for my use case, and most other people I have seen using digital mixers who don't have a stand alone mixing guy, completely useless.

 

 

* actually you can in specific circumstances, but this is not one of those.

[LLOYDWT]

The Midas mixing apps (for the MR18 and the M32 variants) maintain connection, or at least functionally appear to, to the mixer; there is no resource drain on the iPad. Regardless of the technological assumptions, my question is, if Midas/Behringer can do it, why can't A&H?

 

It's not a deal breaker for me, but it definitely feels like a step backwards compared to this feature on the MR18.

[EBS_freak]

The app designer can control whether the app remain active or not, it's not down to the OS to control that. Hence why you can still have music playing, or Youtube pro is the background.

 

Anyway, not prepared to go into tit for tat discussions about app design, frankly, I'm not that bothered.

[BigRedX]

Personally if was trying to run two mission-critical apps on a single mobile device and found that they wouldn't play nicely together, I'd invest in separate devices for each one. I also wouldn't even bother trying to run anything static off batteries. Use a mains adaptor and if that requires a special USB or Lightning adaptor to allow mains power and control functionality at the same time then get that too.

 

A couple of years ago I witnessed a fairly well-known band abort their sound check because the iPad running their backing ran out of power. Then despite spending a couple of hours recharging it whilst the two support bands sound checked and played, it died again a couple of songs from the end of the set. The only battery driven devices I'll entertain on stage are the mobile end of radio transmitters and receivers. Everything else is run off the mains.

[dave_bass5]

32 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Personally if was trying to run two mission-critical apps on a single mobile device and found that they wouldn't play nicely together, I'd invest in separate devices for each one. I also wouldn't even bother trying to run anything static off batteries. Use a mains adaptor and if that requires a special USB or Lightning adaptor to allow mains power and control functionality at the same time then get that too.

 

A couple of years ago I witnessed a fairly well-known band abort their sound check because the iPad running their backing ran out of power. Then despite spending a couple of hours recharging it whilst the two support bands sound checked and played, it died again a couple of songs from the end of the set. The only battery driven devices I'll entertain on stage are the mobile end of radio transmitters and receivers. Everything else is run off the mains

I see some people use old, cheap tablets, brought sometimes second hand just for the purpose of running a mixer app. To me that makes sense on one level, but I can see that battery life could possibly be compromised compared to a newer tablet. 
I got an iPad 9 when I was the current model, as I didn’t want to be taking my iPad Pro out. This was back when I was running softsynths. I now use it for mixing station and playing background music between sets etc. I fully charge to before going to the gig, and I’ve never even come close to draining the battery to anywhere near 60%. That’s with it on for over 4-5 hours. 

I never plug it in and have never had to. I also use my iPad Pro to record directly out of the XR18 in to Logic. That too never gets anywhere near 60% and that’s with recording 15 tracks for 2 1/2 hours. 
 

I have an old IPad Air that will run MS and gets less than 3 hours out of it (so never use it). 
This is why I won’t just buy a cheap tablet. I know I can plug it in to the mains, but to me having a portable device means it’s portable and not tethered to anything. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by dave_bass5

[Woodinblack]

43 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

The app designer can control whether the app remain active or not, it's not down to the OS to control that. Hence why you can still have music playing, or Youtube pro is the background.

 

That is audio background mode, which an app can register at, such as a music player or youtube pro. There is also timer access, periodic network access and map update. These are a specific type of app, they cannot choose to run in the background.

 

43 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Anyway, not prepared to go into tit for tat discussions about app design, frankly, I'm not that bothered.

 

Its not a tit for tat discussions, I am just saying what it does. Personally I was wondering why A&H don't appear to be able to do what behringer do, because its not like behringer are a beacon of app design. What I see of their app looks really good, but that seems a huge drop off in functionality, unless you are expected to have a device dedicated to it.

[Woodinblack]

35 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Personally if was trying to run two mission-critical apps on a single mobile device and found that they wouldn't play nicely together, I'd invest in separate devices for each one.

 

My microphone stand isn't that high!

 

3 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I see some people use old, cheap tablets, brought sometimes second hand just for the purpose of running a mixer app. To me that makes sense on one level, but I can see that battery life could possibly be compromised compared to a newer tablet. 

 

I have an iPad pro, which I don't use live (but in practices) and that has a battery life of for ever, and I had an iPad air 2 that had a decent battery life when I was using soft synths. However that one died (not live, it just one day was dead and refused to charge), so I got a cheap on off ebay but the battery isn't great. But I don't use soft synths any more and I don't use it that much on the mixer app, as I have the XControl. I use it for setup, then mostly it is lyrics, but I do go to it from time to time. Performance wise it is good, not sure whether to get something else later, or just stick another batttery in it. Maybe after a year or two I might update my iPad Pro and use that one live - I bought it as it was the last one with a jack socket for audio. 

[dave_bass5]

17 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

My microphone stand isn't that high!

 

 

I have an iPad pro, which I don't use live (but in practices) and that has a battery life of for ever, and I had an iPad air 2 that had a decent battery life when I was using soft synths. However that one died (not live, it just one day was dead and refused to charge), so I got a cheap on off ebay but the battery isn't great. But I don't use soft synths any more and I don't use it that much on the mixer app, as I have the XControl. I use it for setup, then mostly it is lyrics, but I do go to it from time to time. Performance wise it is good, not sure whether to get something else later, or just stick another batttery in it. Maybe after a year or two I might update my iPad Pro and use that one live - I bought it as it was the last one with a jack socket for audio. 

I got the iPad 9 as that too was the last with a real headphone jack. It was 100% the killer feature back in the soft synth days, but now I stream the backing music over Bluetooth to the XR18. 

To be fair, once we have sound checked i dont really need to use the mixer app most of the time. As im doing it from stage it’s not like i can ride the faders anyway. 

Plus i have my phone as a backup should i need it. It does stay on, sitting on my keyboard, and i tweak the Aux mixes if someone needs something changing, but on the whole our mix is quite consistent these days after sound check. 

[Woodinblack]

10 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

To be fair, once we have sound checked i dont really need to use the mixer app most of the time. As im doing it from stage it’s not like i can ride the faders anyway. 

 

We have 1 main singer and me and the drummer also have solo songs, so I change the faders for that (probably should automate that), but the XControl is good for the faders (and easier to use than a screen).  Also some adjustments based on feedback.

[dave_bass5]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

We have 1 main singer and me and the drummer also have solo songs, so I change the faders for that (probably should automate that), but the XControl is good for the faders (and easier to use than a screen).  Also some adjustments based on feedback.

Oh yeah, it’s an ever evolving mix most of the time. I keep mine on all the time but I refuse to touch FOH unless the venue or audience tell me it needs addressing. 
Too many times I’ve been told by the singer that she is too low in the mix, even though she is on stage using a monitor or IEM’s. I tell them the sound check is there to be used properly and we set it all then. Unless they make the effort then I’m ignoring anyone on stage when they mention FOH. 
In fact the most used slider is the bass players gain. He keeps turning his bass down on the bass itself and I have to keep tuning the gain up. I wish he would leave it alone . This is where Mixing Station’s regain feature comes in handy. You can change the gain and MS keeps the output level even.

Edited September 11, 2023 by dave_bass5

[LLOYDWT]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Personally if was trying to run two mission-critical apps on a single mobile device and found that they wouldn't play nicely together, I'd invest in separate devices for each one. I also wouldn't even bother trying to run anything static off batteries. Use a mains adaptor and if that requires a special USB or Lightning adaptor to allow mains power and control functionality at the same time then get that too.

 

A couple of years ago I witnessed a fairly well-known band abort their sound check because the iPad running their backing ran out of power. Then despite spending a couple of hours recharging it whilst the two support bands sound checked and played, it died again a couple of songs from the end of the set. The only battery driven devices I'll entertain on stage are the mobile end of radio transmitters and receivers. Everything else is run off the mains.

 

On an average gig, I have redundancies for everything. Multiple basses, multiple amps, multiple cabinets, multiple mixers, spare mics, etc., a bag full of spare 9 volts, XLRs, 1/4" cables and strings,  and I make sure that everything is fully charged before leaving the house, and I carry chargers/cables too...; I carry two iPads and can mix from my laptop and phone too (and my backup mixer is an MW1608 with physical faders). This isn't about being cheap or cutting corners; it's about not having my mic stand looking like the bridge of the Starship Enterprise.

 

I've been mixing from a tablet for the best part of a decade, and it's confusing, and frustrating, why the functionality in this feature is now less than it was 8 years ago. This is functionality that exists; it's more convenient to run it all from one device and I'd like to be able to continue doing so. If A&H have a legitimate reason for its omission, so be it, but right now, Midas/Behringer can do it, so I don't understand why A&H can't.

 

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

As one of the Directors of the management companies has run off with all the fund meantbto maintain ouf flats, I could be £2K out of pocket, so any frivolous purchase has to be really justified so the CQ20B is back on the wish list rather than the must-have.

 

However, I will comment on whether to use old tablets on this class of mixer. I have a functional iPad 3rd gen with a huge battery life. The only mixer I can use it with is the Soundcraft UIs, as they use browser control rather than being app based. Try to use any of the others, including the Mixing Station, and they just will not load on that iPad.

 

Now, the downside is that you are slightly limited by HTML as to what you can do, but in reality HTML5 is pretty versatile.

 

The screen on the CQ18T was attractive because there is a fail-safe. This is totally sold out everywhere so cannot be checked, and although I am drawn to the 20, more channels and the lower price, I think the purchase will be on hold for the time being.

[tauzero]

17 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

I see some people use old, cheap tablets, brought sometimes second hand just for the purpose of running a mixer app. To me that makes sense on one level, but I can see that battery life could possibly be compromised compared to a newer tablet.

 

I have an elderly Huawei tablet which I bought for running the mixer app a while ago, then I didn't use my PA for some time. Starting again, I bought a new tablet but I used the old one - two gigs, three hours with the app in the foreground and no other app, display permanently on except during the interval, no recharge between gigs, still had 35% or so in the battery.

[Chienmortbb]

I called Allen & Heath this morning to ask if and/or when Groups would be added to the App. I as pointed to Audio Technica. Likewise, I phoned them and was told to use their website to contact them. Firstly, they had no info on the CQ series apart from their version of the press release, and again I fill in a web form to ask a question. When will these people learn that this is not good enough for consumers and certainly not for professional users.

 

Dealing with Sound Technology, the UK distributors for Soundcraft is much easier and makes me wonder whether I should just go for a UI24R. It is more like the CQ20, and by comparison more expensive, but it does what I want now and has more outputs/Auxes.

[LLOYDWT]

6 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Firstly, they had no info on the CQ series apart from their version of the press release...

 

Yeah. They were super selective about what they were willing to talk about when engaging with me. It seems like the engineers don't really communicate with the support/promotional/social teams, and if it's not the press release, they just don't know.

 

I think in the long wrong the CQ20 would be a wiser buy than the UI24R; it's definitely, even with its teething issues, a more capable device; but I would understand choosing a more mature device rather than waiting for updates that may or may not come.