The compact mixing desk thread

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Owen said:

I would be very interested in what people would suggest instead of Ye Olde 58. I know there are many options. But names would be useful Thanks. 

 

The AKG D7's seem to be well regarded. I've just ordered one as my Xmas prezzie from the missus, which was based on recommendations from @Phil Starr and others on a separate thread, I think, which he can hopefully point you you in the right direction on! 

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

The AKG D7's seem to be well regarded. I've just ordered one as my Xmas prezzie from the missus, which was based on recommendations from @Phil Starr and others on a separate thread, I think, which he can hopefully point you you in the right direction on! 

It was the AKG D5 I recommended, not that I think the D7 is a problem, I've just never tried one. The D5 is terrific at feedback rejection but at the cost of you having to be really close to the mic if it is to pick you up. It sounds terrific too and is built like a tank, makes the Shure feel flimsy (which it isn't) I have two which I don't use as:

• I have a loud singing voice so feedback is not an issue
• I bounce around like Tigger when I'm performing so I need something more forgiving of poor mic technique

The D5 is cheap too, £73 at Gear4music and the sound is sooo good. I swapped out one mid gig once when I was mixing for another band and their SM58 went down. The vocals went from very ordinary to terrific.

[Phil Starr]

Here you go

 

 

[mike257]

11 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

The AKG D7's seem to be well regarded. I've just ordered one as my Xmas prezzie from the missus, which was based on recommendations from @Phil Starr and others on a separate thread, I think, which he can hopefully point you you in the right direction on! 

 

The D5 were my go-to for some time and a solid choice, from what I've heard the D7 are an improvement again, although I've been using the SE V7 as my regular choice for about 18 months now and on the majority of singers it's been great. 

[Woodinblack]

I used to use a TC Helicon MP75, which sound wise I think is much better for my voice, but have gone to a behringer backup as I found watching a video I move quite a bit when singing, and the MP75 is hypercardoid, so when I go a few degrees off axis the sound drops out drastically, and unfortunately I go off axis quite a lot.

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, mike257 said:

 

The D5 were my go-to for some time and a solid choice, from what I've heard the D7 are an improvement again, although I've been using the SE V7 as my regular choice for about 18 months now and on the majority of singers it's been great. 

 

That's exactly it, Mike. Phil's recommendation of the D5 was what got me looking at AKG mics initially and, as you say, the D7 seems to be a step up from the D5 with a bit of a price hike to match (but as it was going to be a Xmas pressie 😊) Fwiw I've actually gone for the D7S, as I quite like the ability to switch my mic off for when it's not needed.

 

PS I see Phil's vocal mic thread has just been revived - which is great; it's an excellent thread and well worth checking out!

 

Edited December 12 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

@mike257 et al, I've got the hpf on our A&H desk currently set to kick in as follows:

 

kick drum - 30Hz (eliminate low end crud / subsonic frequencies)

bass - 50Hz (to stay clear of the kick drum sonic space)

male vox - 80Hz

female vox & guitar - 100Hz

drums other (single mic) - 100Hz

 

Is that broadly sensible? Would you set differently?

Edited December 13 by Al Krow

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@mike257 et al, I've got the hpf on our A&H desk currently set to kick in as follows:

 

kick drum - 30Hz (eliminate low end crud / subsonic frequencies)

bass - 50Hz (to stay clear of the kick drum sonic space)

male vox - 80Hz

female vox & guitar - 100Hz

drums other (single mic) - 100Hz

 

Is that broadly sensible? Would you set differently?

 

I have no science behind it but I'm broadly 20Hz higher than each of those.

 

<edit>

 

In fact I think I have the main outputs passed at about 70-80Hz... I'll check later. 

Edited December 13 by warwickhunt

[Woodinblack]

On 12/12/2024 at 10:06, Al Krow said:

I quite like the ability to switch my mic off for when it's not needed

 

Our singer does that. Which means at least 2 or 3 songs a gig he doesnt get the first line out as the microphone is off!

[dave_bass5]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Our singer does that. Which means at least 2 or 3 songs a gig he doesnt get the first line out as the microphone is off!

Same with two of mine. I now insist they leave them on and I’ll mute them if needed, which i never do for the reasons in my previous post. 

[Chienmortbb]

How well does a gate work on the vocals if you have backline? 
 

On the mic switch issue. It’s a sod to turn it on if you are playing and find out it’s switched off. 

[dave_bass5]

6 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

How well does a gate work on the vocals if you have backline? 
 

On the mic switch issue. It’s a sod to turn it on if you are playing and find out it’s switched off. 

I find it not to work well. I guess it’s partly to do with the singers technique, to far away and they won’t open the gate, but needs a heavy gate to stop the noise etc. 

I also found that when the gate was opened for the voice the stage volume would also get picked up so it’s like a birth of volume.

im sure those more experienced could set things up better, i have to do it from the stage while playing so cant ride the faders.

I think all this might be a bit too anal for smaller pub gigs. 

Edited December 13 by dave_bass5

[Al Krow]

I love that phrase "a birth of volume" - brilliant!!

[dave_bass5]

4 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I love that phrase "a birth of volume" - brilliant!!

Haha. Bloody predictive tax 😂

Edited December 13 by dave_bass5

[Al Krow]

2 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Haha. Bloody predictive tax 😂

 

Oh I thought you had written that deliberately and very poetically! 

 

Btw please don't mention "tax" - return season is fast approaching! 😅

[Chienmortbb]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

 

I also found that when the gate was opened for the voice the stage volume would also get picked up so it’s like a birth of volume

That is what I was worried about especially if singer moves sideways and the backing opens the gate erroneously. 

[dave_bass5]

51 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

That is what I was worried about especially if singer moves sideways and the backing opens the gate erroneously. 

Yeah. It’s funny but in my 40 years of playing live, mostly small gigs with a self contained band it’s never been an issue. Now i know it’s happening it’s like the end of days 😂

 

[mike257]

6 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

How well does a gate work on the vocals if you have backline? 
 

On the mic switch issue. It’s a sod to turn it on if you are playing and find out it’s switched off. 

 

It really doesn't work well. As a general rule, I've never found gating vocals to be effective. Good mic choice, good mic technique, a considered stage layout and sensible backline volumes are the best set of tools for dealing with spill in vocal mics, in my experience. 

[mike257]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@mike257 et al, I've got the hpf on our A&H desk currently set to kick in as follows:

 

kick drum - 30Hz (eliminate low end crud / subsonic frequencies)

bass - 50Hz (to stay clear of the kick drum sonic space)

male vox - 80Hz

female vox & guitar - 100Hz

drums other (single mic) - 100Hz

 

Is that broadly sensible? Would you set differently?

 

With the eternal caveat that I can't really give proper advice on a mix without hearing both the system and the content....

 

Kick Drum: I'd do about the same on a proper full range touring system. If you're on a small powered tops & subs band setup, I'd maybe go up a touch higher just so you're not overworking the amps. You're not going to get gut-shaking low end from a couple of small boxes in a function room/pub etc, so if you can let the sub amps and drivers work a little less hard at the super low stuff they struggle with, they can give you more of the slightly higher stuff that they're able to reproduce more efficiently. 

 

Bass: Depending on the sound you're going for and where it's sitting in the mix, I'd generally go anywhere from 40 to 80 as a starting point. It's always good to sit the low end of the bass in a different spot to the kick and give them each their own space though. 

 

Vocals (Male and female): I tend to go a little higher with these. Generally anywhere from 120 to 160, sometimes even higher depending on what else is going on in the mix. You really don't need that much low end from a vocal in the majority of situations, and a lot of the information down that low will be spill from drums and amps too, which you can do without. 

 

Guitars: I'll usually go somewhere around 100 to 120 as a starting point. If it's a busy mix with lots of keys, tracks etc I'll often go quite a bit higher to help it sit in the mix, whereas if it's a simpler drums/bass/guitars mix I'll probably leave it lower down and let the guitars be a little bigger. 

 

Drums: Another big "it depends"... With individual close mics I'll use this to place each source in the mix, with toms set a little higher (small rack toms at around 80, stepping down with the pitch of each tom , floor tom often as low as the kick). Snare will depend on the mix - I'm quite partial to a chunky snare with a lot of low end weight so I'll often leave this low, but sometimes you need a "smaller" snare to sit in a busy mix and I'll crank it up towards 180/200. For overheads (or a single mic over the kit like you're using) I'll go pretty high with the HPF. You're not going to get tons of definition or pleasant low end from overheads on a small stage and the stage spill from amps etc will be significant, so I'll take this up pretty high and just use that mic to get the attack of the drums popping through, especially when it's a small system and you're just after a bit of reinforcement and extra definition in a smaller room. 

 

If you're not sure on a HPF, a good starting point is often to wind the frequency up until you can actually hear it taking something significant out, then wind it back just a little from that point. Then you know you're at least getting rid of the content you don't need from that source, which will be a big help in cleaning up your mix. As above, you can be more aggressive with it on some sources, but it's very situation-dependant. 

 

Sorry for the essay, hope it's helpful!

[Chienmortbb]

43 minutes ago, mike257 said:

good starting point is often to wind the frequency up until you can actually hear it taking something significant out, then wind it back just a little from that point. Then you know you're at least getting rid of the content you don't need from that source, which will be a big help in cleaning up your mix. As above, you can be more aggressive with it on some sources, but it's very situation-dependant. 

This is true of so many things. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, mike257 said:

 

With the eternal caveat that I can't really give proper advice on a mix without hearing both the system and the content....

 

Kick Drum: I'd do about the same on a proper full range touring system. If you're on a small powered tops & subs band setup, I'd maybe go up a touch higher just so you're not overworking the amps. You're not going to get gut-shaking low end from a couple of small boxes in a function room/pub etc, so if you can let the sub amps and drivers work a little less hard at the super low stuff they struggle with, they can give you more of the slightly higher stuff that they're able to reproduce more efficiently. 

 

Bass: Depending on the sound you're going for and where it's sitting in the mix, I'd generally go anywhere from 40 to 80 as a starting point. It's always good to sit the low end of the bass in a different spot to the kick and give them each their own space though. 

 

Vocals (Male and female): I tend to go a little higher with these. Generally anywhere from 120 to 160, sometimes even higher depending on what else is going on in the mix. You really don't need that much low end from a vocal in the majority of situations, and a lot of the information down that low will be spill from drums and amps too, which you can do without. 

 

Guitars: I'll usually go somewhere around 100 to 120 as a starting point. If it's a busy mix with lots of keys, tracks etc I'll often go quite a bit higher to help it sit in the mix, whereas if it's a simpler drums/bass/guitars mix I'll probably leave it lower down and let the guitars be a little bigger. 

 

Drums: Another big "it depends"... With individual close mics I'll use this to place each source in the mix, with toms set a little higher (small rack toms at around 80, stepping down with the pitch of each tom , floor tom often as low as the kick). Snare will depend on the mix - I'm quite partial to a chunky snare with a lot of low end weight so I'll often leave this low, but sometimes you need a "smaller" snare to sit in a busy mix and I'll crank it up towards 180/200. For overheads (or a single mic over the kit like you're using) I'll go pretty high with the HPF. You're not going to get tons of definition or pleasant low end from overheads on a small stage and the stage spill from amps etc will be significant, so I'll take this up pretty high and just use that mic to get the attack of the drums popping through, especially when it's a small system and you're just after a bit of reinforcement and extra definition in a smaller room. 

 

If you're not sure on a HPF, a good starting point is often to wind the frequency up until you can actually hear it taking something significant out, then wind it back just a little from that point. Then you know you're at least getting rid of the content you don't need from that source, which will be a big help in cleaning up your mix. As above, you can be more aggressive with it on some sources, but it's very situation-dependant. 

 

Sorry for the essay, hope it's helpful!

 

Very helpful indeed, thanks Mike!

[tauzero]

13 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

 

Our singer does that. Which means at least 2 or 3 songs a gig he doesnt get the first line out as the microphone is off!

 

At a tangent - many years ago, I had a mixer/amp which only muted FOH, not monitors. Rather embarrassing to come back from the break and do our first number before someone pointed out to me that FOH was still off.

[Phil Starr]

7 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

At a tangent - many years ago, I had a mixer/amp which only muted FOH, not monitors. Rather embarrassing to come back from the break and do our first number before someone pointed out to me that FOH was still off.

I've done that twice recently one of the downsides of in-ears is that you have this magnificent sound the moment you crash into the first song but only you can hear it. OOps 🙄

[Owen]

8 hours ago, tauzero said:

 

At a tangent - many years ago, I had a mixer/amp which only muted FOH, not monitors. Rather embarrassing to come back from the break and do our first number before someone pointed out to me that FOH was still off.

Been there, mixing sound from the stage. Ho hum.

[EBS_freak]

Just an extra note on vocals - what’s far more important than anything, is vocalist technique. To avoid bleed, if you can get your vocalist to eat the mic - literally having their lips touching the grille, not only will you get a warmer sound from then, you’ll get less bleed.

its a challenge to get vocalists to do it if they don’t already, but you’ll be amazed how much evening tightens up in the mix if you fix the most problematic inputs. (Especially things like cymbal bleed and general ambience which makes everything sound thin and tinny. It’s great having “air” on your main vox - but a nightmare if they aren’t using the mic properly)