The compact mixing desk thread

[Phil Starr]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Just an extra note on vocals - what’s far more important than anything, is vocalist technique.

Ain't that the truth! The trouble is that they watch too many videos and copy the moves. It's quite fun watching some live video and picking out when you are listening to a recording or one of the backing singers. I've spotted Kylie's live videos where she has dropped the mic down to her knee and the vocal continues with no change in volume or timbre. 

 

Trying to persuade a singer to watch mic technique on genuinely live video seems to be like asking them to read War and Peace.

[Chienmortbb]

Our vocalist is UK but the lead guitar stands back miles. a real PITA.

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

Our vocalist is UK but the lead guitar stands back miles. a real PITA.

Train them with an optigate. If they aren’t close enough, the mic doesn’t turn on. Simple.

 

(although not too great if they are the lead vocalist)

[prowla]

Not a desk per-se, but I'd like a 1U rack mixer with all line-level inputs (for mixing pre-amps and keyboards).

[tauzero]

6 hours ago, Chienmortbb said:

Our vocalist is UK but the lead guitar stands back miles. a real PITA.

 

Must be standing back a long way if he's in a different country.

[Chienmortbb]

On 14/12/2024 at 18:37, tauzero said:

Must be standing back a long way if he's in a different country.

He is a guitarist. Might as well

be in a different country!

[AllYourBassAreBelongToUs]

On 11/12/2024 at 14:22, Al Krow said:

One of my mates has been struggling with the issue of getting feedback with his PA system: Alto TS310 tops and ELX200P subs, Zoom L12 desk and Shure SM58 mics, which is limiting the amount of FoH volume his set up is able to deliver

Thank you @Al Krow for bringing my issue to this forum. The knowledge, experience and further questions raised have been a real eye-opener!
 

On 11/12/2024 at 14:44, dave_bass5 said:

Ive been shocked at how much the vocal mics pick up. A lot more than i thought. Since i started recording our gigs as multitrack i get pretty much a full mix just from the live mics on stage. One mix is only used for a few songs but left on so the FOH balance is consistent

 

@dave_bass5 Indeed - my 2x SM58s are picking up so much FoH and drums, that (during playback) when I unmute the vocal tracks a layer of everything is added! Not good, in trying to boost vocal, it's boosting everything else, creates a bad cycle. When I check the speakers during downtime, I can hear way too much of the room (audience, chatting, etc). 

 

On 11/12/2024 at 14:50, mike257 said:

As soon as the vocal mics came in to play, there was so much stage spill that everything went to bits, but cutting them in and out sounded so unnatural because all the spill still came back in with the vocal and changed how everything sounded. 

 

@mike257 Everything you've said on this topic is much appreciated. This for example meant I had no idea what a noise gate actually did. May have mixed it up with noise suppressor?

 

On 11/12/2024 at 18:03, mike257 said:

The 57 actually has the same capsule as the 58, the only differences are the grille enclosure, and any difference in sound is from the difference in proximity to the diaphragm from not having the big silver ball in the way 🤣

 

I've been using SE V7 as my go to vocal mic for a while now

 

@Al Krow mentioned, I was looking at changing mics. Perhaps some good research... coincidentally, I bought an SE V7 (which I plan to use for the soprano) and an Beta58 (second-hand, unused!). To claw in every possible dB available and rejection maximised, I got a Beta57 grille to swap out the 58 grille, to get the singer as close as possible to the mic.

As it's possible the key issue is that the singers are simply not loud/projecting enough: 

On 11/12/2024 at 15:27, mike257 said:

There's also the usual things about vocal performance to consider - is the singer projecting and giving out a reasonable volume, or are they whisper quiet? Are they on top of the mic or backing off/singing at a distance from it?

 

I've just taken a look at the Zoom L12, I see there's a one-knob compressor on each channel. If they're using it on the vocals, I'd suggest dialling it back or fully bypassing it and seeing if that helps them out. Usual vocal mixing tips apply too - making sure the high pass filter (labelled "Low Cut" on the Zoom) is engaged on the vocal mics, and making judicious and careful use of the channel EQ. 

 

I was suspicious of this, and on your advice removed the compression completely at next gig. I always have the low cut applied to every channel, every gig, except kick and bass. EQ... not my strong point! I have a Behringer FBQ3102 to (attempt to) notch out feedback to give more headroom. This has helped a bit; hard to ring out a room that has punters in it though! 

 

On 11/12/2024 at 15:27, mike257 said:

Interesting to hear they're still having big problems with feedback when running a silent stage with IEM. 

How loud are they trying to run their PA, How big a space are they trying to fill, Where is the PA positioned relative to the mics, Where are the mics positioned relative to the PA and to any acoustically reflective surfaces in the room

 

Although their stage volume isn't an issue in terms of backline levels, if they're trying to play a "loud" show, they could still be getting in their own way with the mix. The Alto speakers are definitely at the cheap and cheerful end of the PA world, and whilst I'd imagine they'd do ok as purely vocal amplification over a band playing through backline at a sensible gig level, they're being asked to do a lot of work in carrying the whole band on a silent stage and probably being pushed beyond what they're really capable of. That's a lot of dynamic information and transients, and a much more constant load on the amps and drivers than purely pushing vocal, so they'll likely be running at their limits. 

Context - pubs, clubs and parties are our most frequent shows. Mostly small to mid-size. The former often presenting an array of... interesting floor designs. Every venue provides it's own set of irregularities to work around. The thing is, plenty other bands are at these locations, plenty often, plenty loud and with (seemingly) no feedback issues. 

Our stage is not strictly silent - snare, HH and crash are acoustic. Our most oft used drummer is not a huge hitter (but is still a drummer!) Always mics behind FoH. Admittedly, this a few metres at best but nothing @Al Krow hasn't experienced.

Pre-lockdown, we had acoustic drums, bass combo and all else (2x vocal on SM58s, guitar and keys DI) through 2x B212XLs and a PMP2000D - yep, Behringer. Light, compact, simple, quick. If it works, amazing, if not, learn and upgrade. Aim was actually to not be that loud. Never seemed to be a volume issue, only a large outdoor festival highlighted inadequacy, and I was afraid to put bass and kick through it. Ironically, post-lockdown, I "upgraded" to have set-up with big headroom. Enter the ELX200-12SP (subs) and Alto TS310s (tops), the Zoom L12 for more control over gain structure and monitoring, etc. 

 

The two recurring complaints I've had are "can't hear the singers" and "not loud enough [in general]". Both of these aspects seem to have improved over the last few shows, partly to advice from here and friends, and my own increasing experience with EQ. However, I'm running the PA right up to point of feedback and clipping to achieve this... I've no-where to go after that! Doesn't seem a touch on the other local bands, including another I'm in. Audience or onstage, the Senner earplugs go in immediately. And yet not with my own.

THANK YOU ALL.

[AllYourBassAreBelongToUs]

EV ELX200 Crossovers | How they work

https://youtu.be/U-IIIoIj8js?si=L5evrarkZEVysRni

I ran a quick test and confirm this to be accurate. ELX-P subs do send a full-range signal onwards, regardless of where the filter is set to.
 

@mike257 pointed out, Alto is perhaps not the best... and I'm running everything through FoH with no backline (electric kick and snare mic) but this is why I got subs, to spread the load, maximise headroom. At least, that's what I thought. I'm sure that all reviews I read at the time said the ELX subs had a built-in crossover... but if the XLR out always sends a full-range signal up to the tops, then that is technically not behaving as a crossover? 

Therefore, all the time, the poor Altos have been trying to pump out everything, including frequencies the sub is already handling. 

[JPJ]

I know my EV ZLX tops have a setting in their DSP where you tell them what sub you are using (or no sub at all) and I think the onboard DSP takes care of crossover filtering. This might explain why the EV bins put out a full range signal? 
Personally, I prefer using an outboard crossover or loudspeaker management such as the DriveRack, especially when mixing whilst playing. In this scenario I wouldn’t leave home without the DriveRack.

Edited December 25, 2024 by JPJ

[Al Krow]

13 hours ago, AllYourBassAreBelongToUs said:

EV ELX200 Crossovers | How they work

https://youtu.be/U-IIIoIj8js?si=L5evrarkZEVysRni

I ran a quick test and confirm this to be accurate. ELX-P subs do send a full-range signal onwards, regardless of where the filter is set to.
 

@mike257 pointed out, Alto is perhaps not the best... and I'm running everything through FoH with no backline (electric kick and snare mic) but this is why I got subs, to spread the load, maximise headroom. At least, that's what I thought. I'm sure that all reviews I read at the time said the ELX subs had a built-in crossover... but if the XLR out always sends a full-range signal up to the tops, then that is technically not behaving as a crossover? 

Therefore, all the time, the poor Altos have been trying to pump out everything, including frequencies the sub is already handling. 

 

Oh that doesn't sound good! How about considering a late Christmas pressie to yourself of an Alto TS 12 sub to complement your Alto tops?

 

@Steve Browning is very happy with his Alto sub / top combination, which is enough of a recommendation for me,

and my crew have consequently also got our eye on a TS 12, as this seems to provide a great combination of power, not excessive weight and value for money.

 

If you're then not having to max out your tops, just wondering if you might deal with a major cause your feedback issues in one fell swoop?

[Al Krow]

@mike257 et al not an obvious place to post this query, so I'll drop it in here...do you have a preferred kick drum mic?

 

Hope everyone is having an enjoyable Christmas break!

 

 

[mike257]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@mike257 et al not an obvious place to post this query, so I'll drop it in here...do you have a preferred kick drum mic?

 

Hope everyone is having an enjoyable Christmas break!

 

 

 

Hope you're having a lovely Christmas too mate!

 

There's a few good options out there for kick mics. My go-to in my touring setup is to use an Audix D6 at the port, blended with a Shure Beta 91A sat inside the drum, but I'm more than happy to just use one mic if that's what the situation calls for (and will sometimes end up only using one even if I've got both of them in there!)

 

On a budget - I used to very happily use a Sennheiser e602. I've got a pair of them, picked up for around £60-65 each. Perfectly capable all-rounder. I now use it as my go-to floor tom mic (kick drum mics on a floor tom is a delight, especially if you've got enough PA to make the most of the bottom end!)

 

If you're spending a little more, the Audix D6 is a good shout. It's got a bit of an EQ curve baked in to the frequency response, with a bump in the lows, a scoop in the mids, and a lift in the high mids where the beater attack sits. Some folks grumble about this as it's the most "coloured" of the commonly seen options, but it's a great sounding and robust mic that gets you close to a useable frequency curve with very little work - especially helpful on a more basic pub gig PA setup where you're limited with EQ options. Wouldn't use it on a jazz gig but for anything with a punchy rock/pop sound where you want the kick to easily sit in the mix without a load of flubby midrange it's a good shout. 

 

The other big player is the Shure Beta 52A. Also sound great, less accentuated frequency response than the Audix so has a more natural response that can lend itself to a wider variety of sounds (but can need a little more work to get there). This (with the Audix in second place) is the "default" kick mic you'll generally see in venues, on festival stages etc (usually paired with a 91A). If you had to pick one kick mic that all engineers would be happy to use on a gig, this is your safe bet. 

 

The other option is a boundary mic - the Shure 91A being the most common. They sit flat inside the drum on top of whatever dampening foam/blankets/cushion you've got in there. Pick up a very prominent beater attack, and often used in combo with another mic, but perfectly useable alone too. They can take a little more EQ to get in the right place but sound fantastic when dialled in, plus you don't need a mic stand or any additional trip hazard in front of the kit. You do need a hole in your kick drum head though, or you're taking the front off to put it on there! The Sennheiser 901 is also solid in this role, although they're obnoxiously wide and I've come across a few drums with smaller port holes where I couldn't fit it through! Behringer do a knock off of the Shure which, although I haven't used, I'm told does a very decent job on a low budget, but I can't speak for it myself. 

 

A few good options depending on what suits your needs best! 

[Woodinblack]

On 25/12/2024 at 14:08, Al Krow said:

@Steve Browning is very happy with his Alto sub / top combination, which is enough of a recommendation for me,

and my crew have consequently also got our eye on a TS 12, as this seems to provide a great combination of power, not excessive weight and value for money.

 

Was going to post it worked for me before the RCFs, then remembered my 12" sub is a behringer with alto tops. Still worked fine though

[mike257]

On 25/12/2024 at 00:51, AllYourBassAreBelongToUs said:

EV ELX200 Crossovers | How they work

https://youtu.be/U-IIIoIj8js?si=L5evrarkZEVysRni

I ran a quick test and confirm this to be accurate. ELX-P subs do send a full-range signal onwards, regardless of where the filter is set to.
 

@mike257 pointed out, Alto is perhaps not the best... and I'm running everything through FoH with no backline (electric kick and snare mic) but this is why I got subs, to spread the load, maximise headroom. At least, that's what I thought. I'm sure that all reviews I read at the time said the ELX subs had a built-in crossover... but if the XLR out always sends a full-range signal up to the tops, then that is technically not behaving as a crossover? 

Therefore, all the time, the poor Altos have been trying to pump out everything, including frequencies the sub is already handling. 

 

Glad you've found the info in the thread helpful! 

 

The sub technically does have a crossover, but it's only affecting the signal heading in to its own amp - rolling off everything above a selectable low pass frequency. As you've rightly said, it doesn't affect the output - I'm pretty sure that the output socket is in fact just wired directly in parallel with the input and passes through no other electronics at all. 

 

The matching EV tops in that range have their own on-board DSP with crossovers, which will be why they've omitted a high pass filter from the outputs on the sub - if you're using their whole system, it all works together fine. 

 

Unfortunately, the Alto lacks this feature so you'll be losing a lot of headroom while they fight to kick all that low end out. A standalone crossover/speaker processor might be the cheapest way to address this - there's various models of DBX DriveRack available that will do a simple sub/top processing setup and can be bought cheaply on the used market. I sold two DriveRack PA+ for under £100 each last year, something like that would sort it. 

 

Ultimately though, I think you're probably just asking too much of those little Altos. I'd have no hesitation using them in your setting for vocals and a bit of mild reinforcement in front of a normal backline, but asking them to do *everything* loudly and cleanly is probably pushing the limits of what they're capable of for a set of small, inexpensive speakers.

 

I'm a big fan of the silent stage approach for function gigs, solves a lot of problems and gives you a lot of control, but you do need a PA with a bit of heft behind it to get anywhere near the same energy you'd get from a live drum kit and backline running at moderate levels.  It's also a lot more directionally focused when it's all through the PA, which has pros and cons - when I've done bigger function gigs, I've aimed the main system to hit the dancefloor but taken an extra pair of speakers as fills that I'll space out to cover a wider area evenly without just cranking the main rig up. 

[Al Krow]

52 minutes ago, mike257 said:

 

Glad you've found the info in the thread helpful! 

 

The sub technically does have a crossover, but it's only affecting the signal heading in to its own amp - rolling off everything above a selectable low pass frequency. As you've rightly said, it doesn't affect the output - I'm pretty sure that the output socket is in fact just wired directly in parallel with the input and passes through no other electronics at all. 

 

The matching EV tops in that range have their own on-board DSP with crossovers, which will be why they've omitted a high pass filter from the outputs on the sub - if you're using their whole system, it all works together fine. 

 

Unfortunately, the Alto lacks this feature so you'll be losing a lot of headroom while they fight to kick all that low end out. A standalone crossover/speaker processor might be the cheapest way to address this - there's various models of DBX DriveRack available that will do a simple sub/top processing setup and can be bought cheaply on the used market. I sold two DriveRack PA+ for under £100 each last year, something like that would sort it. 

 

Ultimately though, I think you're probably just asking too much of those little Altos. I'd have no hesitation using them in your setting for vocals and a bit of mild reinforcement in front of a normal backline, but asking them to do *everything* loudly and cleanly is probably pushing the limits of what they're capable of for a set of small, inexpensive speakers.

 

I'm a big fan of the silent stage approach for function gigs, solves a lot of problems and gives you a lot of control, but you do need a PA with a bit of heft behind it to get anywhere near the same energy you'd get from a live drum kit and backline running at moderate levels.  It's also a lot more directionally focused when it's all through the PA, which has pros and cons - when I've done bigger function gigs, I've aimed the main system to hit the dancefloor but taken an extra pair of speakers as fills that I'll space out to cover a wider area evenly without just cranking the main rig up. 

 

Mike - well spotted that the TS 12 sub doesn't have a built-in crossover switch. Annoying deliberate omission on the part of Alto! May need to take that one off my sub shortlist and head back to the RCF or similar...

[mike257]

30 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Mike - well spotted that the TS 12 sub doesn't have a built-in crossover switch. Annoying deliberate omission on the part of Alto! May need to take that one off my sub shortlist and head back to the RCF or similar...

 

I was actually talking about the Alto tops not having one to take the low end out when used with a sub, but you're right, the TS12 lacks any crossover settings for the pass through outputs too. 

[Al Krow]

28 minutes ago, mike257 said:

 

I was actually talking about the Alto tops not having one to take the low end out when used with a sub, but you're right, the TS12 lacks any crossover settings for the pass through outputs too. 

 

Yes indeed. This is the explanatory note from Alto.

 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

 

Mike - well spotted that the TS 12 sub doesn't have a built-in crossover switch. Annoying deliberate omission on the part of Alto! May need to take that one off my sub shortlist and head back to the RCF or similar...

that's odd isn't it. The behringer one has two sets of outputs (ie 4), 2 inputs, 2 thrus, and two high pass with a 100Hz cut - not sure why it is fixed at that, as the low pass has a variable but I guess there are reasons

[tauzero]

5 hours ago, mike257 said:

 

I was actually talking about the Alto tops not having one to take the low end out when used with a sub, but you're right, the TS12 lacks any crossover settings for the pass through outputs too. 

 

The TS4 series has a Sub Size switch which allows selection of HPF frequency.

[AllYourBassAreBelongToUs]

Talk about drawing the short straw! I got EV subs when Alto would've been versatile, and Alto tops when EV tops would've been more versatile!

(correct me if I'm wrong)
The TS3 full range speakers omitted a crossover, because it was instead in their TS3 subs (having in-built crossover in subs was more common at this point in time, I think). It has options to match with the TS38, 12, 15 tops and a generic 100hz HPF (and bypass).Therefore, @Al Krow you could still consider an Alto sub, but not the newest release*.

 

The TS4 range moved the crossover to the full-range/tops... and therefore omits it from the sub. Crossover options here are 80, 95, and 110hz... (18, 15, 12" aka "Large, Medium, Small") so less choice - and perhaps an odd choice of frequencies?? To have the filters on both tops and bottoms would be great... Also, instead of calling the new range of subs TS4, they've dropped the number, so it's just TS+speakersize.

 

I was about whinge about having to cable the mains into tops and then into subs (rather than the other way round), as most of the time this requires slightly longer cables and cabling going back on itself. But I see the Alto newer subs manual advise wiring into subs and then into tops! Therefore, the new TS subs must have in-built LPF; I'm assuming then their output sends a full-range signal onto the tops, don't see confirmation in the manual. But this contradicts what @Al Krow found:

 

Anyway, @mike257 sounds like Altos aren't going to do the business for me either way. I guess I should look deeper into the EV tops. Or any top with a filter - marketing I'll be very suspicious of now!
 

Edited December 27, 2024 by AllYourBassAreBelongToUs

[Phil Starr]

It's not surprising that different manufacturers design things so their own brand tops work best with their own brand subs. There's no cash disincentive to do things this way as they hope you will stick to their brand for all your speaker needs. From a design point of view you can only optimise for a particular combination of top and sub as there are small but significant differences between speakers that might determine the ideal crossover point and filter slope for any given combination. In most cases you can make a sub work with any top but it's nice to think manufacturers wouldn't release a line of speakers without squeezing the best out of a combination.

 

Putting the HPF part of the crossover into the tops makes a lot of sense for Alto. It's the tops that are most likely to blow speakers if you get the crossover wrong and nowadays all the speaker protection circuitry is combined with the crossover in the DSP. Relying on what is in someone else's sub does increase the chance of something going wrong over having all the protection built in.

 

Another combination you might come across is the active sub with the power amps for passive tops built into the sub. A lot of the stick systems use this arrangement and I think Turbosound are offering 2+1 systems with conventional passive tops with all the power amps built into the sub.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Phil Starr

[EBS_freak]

Real sound engineers use aux fed subs anyway 😜

[mike257]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Real sound engineers use aux fed subs anyway 😜

 

Stop that, you. We don't need that argument in here 🤣

[EBS_freak]

20 minutes ago, mike257 said:

 

Stop that, you. We don't need that argument in here 🤣

Lol    

[Al Krow]

Gents, maybe a bit of a noob question but picking up on @EBS_freak's point about aux feeds for subs...any reason we can't apply hpf/lpf on the desk to route a sub 120Hz aux output to the Sub(s) and supra 120 Hz (via the main outs) to the Tops?

 

In which case the Alto TS 12 would be back in the game 😄

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by Al Krow