The compact mixing desk thread

[Al Krow]

21 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

This was my experience. Mixing from the floor during soundcheck is such a game changer for a pub band with no sound engineer. Saving pre set mixes speeds up the whole set up and individual monitors are revolutionary. There are a myriad of extra things you can do of course but start off simple as you did and add in the frills only as you feel a need for them.

 

How did the next two gigs go?

 

Second one went a treat.

 

Third one - we came unstuck as keys were only being fed to one of the FoH speakers via the desk. Turns out that the sole output from the budget keys used by our singer is a headphone out socket and she had a TRS --> TRS lead. However because it's a headphone out, it's therefore a TRS stereo signal, whereas the desk inputs are TRS balanced mono. Anyway we managed to figure out that splitting the stereo signal into two mono and using two of the desk inputs was the workaround, but it meant for a somewhat more stressful sound check than I had anticipated! I suspect that's going to be a relatively unusual set of circumstances as most keys should have more connectivity than just a headphone out socket?

 

The gig turned out ok in the end though! 😊

[Chienmortbb]

On 21/11/2024 at 19:20, Al Krow said:

 

Yeah - that's a fair point Dave. The CQ12T and 18T are standalone desks effectively featuring a "built in tablet".

 

I guess the lack of wifi on the 12T is a product differentiation point - the 18T is £175 more and for that you get: 6 extra inputs, wifi, an extra 2 FX and 3 additional control dials. Worth the extra (particularly if you get lucky as I managed, and pick up a B stock 18T for only £40 extra!). If everything was available on the 12T other than the extra inputs, there would maybe be a lot fewer takers for the 18T or the 12T would need to come in at a price point much closer to the 18T?

 

Fyi - in terms of the additional FX on the CQ18T, the 4 categories on offer:

1. "easy verb" - 3 vocals, string slap, percussion, drum room, string, brass, woodwind & piano

2. "echo verb" - with different flavours and delay times

3. fully fledged chorus

4. double tracker

 

I'll probably stick to easy verb for the vocals, otherwise there's definitely risk of option paralysis: the desk is actually doubling up as a multi-channel multifx!

 

Try your bass through the chorus, it really is good.

[Phil Starr]

16 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

The gig turned out ok in the end though! 😊

Nice, I love playing that bass line It's the start of Chrismas for me when I do my first run through to check it is still under my fingers.

[dave_bass5]

11 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

Nice, I love playing that bass line It's the start of Chrismas for me when I do my first run through to check it is still under my fingers.

It’s one of my favs as well. I’d happily play that all year round lol. 
I’ve started to use the sample of Noddy shouting  ‘it’s Christmas’ to start the song (and the Christmas section of the set). 

[Chienmortbb]

22 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

It’s one of my favs as well. I’d happily play that all year round lol. 
I’ve started to use the sample of Noddy shouting  ‘it’s Christmas’ to start the song (and the Christmas section of the set). 

Me too! The closest thing to a bass jam on record, he clearly wings it in the studio and has a ball.

[Al Krow]

49 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Me too! The closest thing to a bass jam on record, he clearly wings it in the studio and has a ball.

 

I mean it's just one of the best Xmas songs ever! Slade were huge in my youth and doubly so given they hail from Wolverhampton not too far from my childhood home.

 

Besides how often do we get to play a classic rock song with such a cool walking bass line?! 

[dave_bass5]

54 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Me too! The closest thing to a bass jam on record, he clearly wings it in the studio and has a ball.

Id say that would be Maggie May, that's all over the place but great fun to play. 

[Al Krow]

Getting back to the more mundane topic of compact desks...

 

One of my mates has been struggling with the issue of getting feedback with his PA system: Alto TS310 tops and ELX200P subs, Zoom L12 desk and Shure SM58 mics, which is limiting the amount of FoH volume his set up is able to deliver.

 

He's pretty much done everything recommended and nicely summarised in this excellent note, which I'd recommend to anyone encountering feedback issues: Preventing Microphone Feedback in a Live Sound PA

 

The one thing he's not done on that list, that he and I have picked up is yet another capability on the A&H CQ series, is applying a noise gate to channels. I was thinking that it might make sense to apply a noise gate to all the mic channels (including the drum mics) plus the guitar, given pedal board hum, and maybe the bass too? Is this this something that other folk are doing as standard?

[dave_bass5]

Can’t help with that, but i do have question as well to those that do. 
Ive been shocked at how much the vocal mics pick up. A lot more than i thought. Since i started recording our gigs as multitrack i get pretty much a full mix just from the live mics on stage. One mix is only used for a few songs but left on so the FOH balance is consistent. 
My thinking (probably wrong) is if i used a noise gate wouldn’t the FOH volume change each time someone sings. I realise mic placement comes in to play, but each time someone sings the on stage sound also goes through FOH. Could this cause a bit of pumping out front volume wise? 
Probably over thinking this. 
 

[mike257]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Getting back to the more mundane topic of compact desks...

 

One of my mates has been struggling with the issue of getting feedback with his PA system: Alto TS310 tops and ELX200P subs, Zoom L12 desk and Shure SM58 mics, which is limiting the amount of FoH volume his set up is able to deliver.

 

He's pretty much done everything recommended and nicely summarised in this excellent note, which I'd recommend to anyone encountering feedback issues: Preventing Microphone Feedback in a Live Sound PA

 

The one thing he's not done on that list, that he and I have picked up is yet another capability on the A&H CQ series, is applying a noise gate to channels. I was thinking that it might make sense to apply a noise gate to all the mic channels (including the drum mics) plus the guitar, given pedal board hum, and maybe the bass too? Is this this something that other folk are doing as standard?

 

I only tend to gate channels that need it for a sonic reason. I'll usually gate kick drums and toms to get a tight, controlled sound but I'll rarely gate a snare because you lose a lot of the expressive detail in the playing - ghost notes etc. I'll leave toms open too if the musical style benefits from it and the tuning/sound of the drum allows for it. 

 

I'm always wary of gates on sources with a wide dynamic range because it's so easy to cut off things you want to keep. Pedalboard hum is something better fixed at source. 

 

They also wouldn't be part of my approach to prevent feedback. A gate only closes when there's no signal above the threshold. If you have open mics feeding back when they're not even being presented with a signal that would open any gate you set, you've got bigger problems to address in how that system has been set up. 

 

I've had a quick look at the article you linked. It mentions a couple of keys points - positioning of the speakers/wedges relative to the mic, mic choice, proximity of the mic to the source - but it doesn't mention what is often the biggest issue, which is the general stage volume the vocal is competing with. If you're trying to get a vocal clearly heard over a band, and you're getting in to feedback territory trying to do that, the band might be too loud for the space they're in. One of the key elements of putting a good mix together is understanding that if you can't hear something, it's not always about turning that thing up, it's about making a space for it to sit in. Turning something else down is often the answer!

[mike257]

2 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Can’t help with that, but i do have question as well to those that do. 
Ive been shocked at how much the vocal mics pick up. A lot more than i thought. Since i started recording our gigs as multitrack i get pretty much a full mix just from the live mics on stage. One mix is only used for a few songs but left on so the FOH balance is consistent. 
My thinking (probably wrong) is if i used a noise gate wouldn’t the FOH volume change each time someone sings. I realise mic placement comes in to play, but each time someone sings the on stage sound also goes through FOH. Could this cause a bit of pumping out front volume wise? 
Probably over thinking this. 
 

 

This is one reason I've always avoided using Optogates on vocal mics. You can't avoid spill on stage, it's going to be there (to some degree) no matter what. I remember having a real eye-opener with it years ago when doing a mix of a live multitrack from a band I'd been touring with that had five open vocal mics on stage. 

 

I had all of the instrumental elements sounding great, really clean and punchy. As soon as the vocal mics came in to play, there was so much stage spill that everything went to bits, but cutting them in and out sounded so unnatural because all the spill still came back in with the vocal and changed how everything sounded. 

 

I ended up going back to the drawing board with that mix, starting with all the vocals open, and building everything around that to sound natural. 

 

I generally start a live soundcheck with all vocal mics open now, because that stuff is going to be in there no matter what you do, so you have to work around it and factor it in. 

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, mike257 said:

 

I only tend to gate channels that need it for a sonic reason. I'll usually gate kick drums and toms to get a tight, controlled sound but I'll rarely gate a snare because you lose a lot of the expressive detail in the playing - ghost notes etc. I'll leave toms open too if the musical style benefits from it and the tuning/sound of the drum allows for it. 

 

I'm always wary of gates on sources with a wide dynamic range because it's so easy to cut off things you want to keep. Pedalboard hum is something better fixed at source. 

 

They also wouldn't be part of my approach to prevent feedback. A gate only closes when there's no signal above the threshold. If you have open mics feeding back when they're not even being presented with a signal that would open any gate you set, you've got bigger problems to address in how that system has been set up. 

 

I've had a quick look at the article you linked. It mentions a couple of keys points - positioning of the speakers/wedges relative to the mic, mic choice, proximity of the mic to the source - but it doesn't mention what is often the biggest issue, which is the general stage volume the vocal is competing with. If you're trying to get a vocal clearly heard over a band, and you're getting in to feedback territory trying to do that, the band might be too loud for the space they're in. One of the key elements of putting a good mix together is understanding that if you can't hear something, it's not always about turning that thing up, it's about making a space for it to sit in. Turning something else down is often the answer!

 

Mike - lots of wisdom there, thanks!

 

My mate's band has a silent stage set up with an electronic drum kit and I'm pretty sure that they are all using IEMs, rather than floor monitors, so your stage volume point won't apply in their case.

[Al Krow]

9 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Can’t help with that, but i do have question as well to those that do. 
Ive been shocked at how much the vocal mics pick up. A lot more than i thought. Since i started recording our gigs as multitrack i get pretty much a full mix just from the live mics on stage. One mix is only used for a few songs but left on so the FOH balance is consistent. 
My thinking (probably wrong) is if i used a noise gate wouldn’t the FOH volume change each time someone sings. I realise mic placement comes in to play, but each time someone sings the on stage sound also goes through FOH. Could this cause a bit of pumping out front volume wise? 
Probably over thinking this. 
 

 

Yeah, thanks Dave, this is also a big point my mate has raised about how much the vocal mics are picking up. He's actually thinking about replacing the SM58s with an upgrade to see it might help address this.

[dave_bass5]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Yeah, thanks Dave, this is also a big point my mate has raised about how much the vocal mics are picking up. He's actually thinking about replacing the SM58s with an upgrade to see it might help address this.

My drummer recently changed from his SM58 to something that was supposed to be more directional. Made no difference at all lol. 

 

[mike257]

37 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Mike - lots of wisdom there, thanks!

 

My mate's band has a silent stage set up with an electronic drum kit and I'm pretty sure that they are all using IEMs, rather than floor monitors, so your stage volume point won't apply in their case.

 

Acquired through getting it wrong plenty of times on the long road to occasionally getting it right 🤣

 

Interesting to hear they're still having big problems with feedback when running a silent stage with IEM. 

 

What I'd be looking at is:

 

How loud are they trying to run their PA

How big a space are they trying to fill

Where is the PA positioned relative to the mics

Where are the mics positioned relative to the PA and to any acoustically reflective surfaces in the room

 

 

Although their stage volume isn't an issue in terms of backline levels, if they're trying to play a "loud" show, they could still be getting in their own way with the mix. The Alto speakers are definitely at the cheap and cheerful end of the PA world, and whilst I'd imagine they'd do ok as purely vocal amplification over a band playing through backline at a sensible gig level, they're being asked to do a lot of work in carrying the whole band on a silent stage and probably being pushed beyond what they're really capable of. That's a lot of dynamic information and transients, and a much more constant load on the amps and drivers than purely pushing vocal, so they'll likely be running at their limits. 

 

As you mention, mic choice could help too, and the trusty old 58 isn't the mainstay it once was. There's plenty of options out there with a tighter pickup pattern. 

 

There's also the usual things about vocal performance to consider - is the singer projecting and giving out a reasonable volume, or are they whisper quiet? Are they on top of the mic or backing off/singing at a distance from it?

 

EDIT: Just to add - I've just taken a look at the Zoom L12, as it's not a desk I'm familiar with. I see there's a one-knob compressor on each channel. Not sure how much of that they're using on the vocal, but if they are doing, that could also do more harm than good in this situation with regards to achievable level before feedback. If they're using it on the vocals, I'd suggest dialling it back or fully bypassing it and seeing if that helps them out. Usual vocal mixing tips apply too - making sure the high pass filter (labelled "Low Cut" on the Zoom) is engaged on the vocal mics, and making judicious and careful use of the channel EQ. 

Edited December 11 by mike257

[dave_bass5]

19 minutes ago, mike257 said:

 

 

I generally start a live soundcheck with all vocal mics open now, because that stuff is going to be in there no matter what you do, so you have to work around it and factor it in. 

That's what I do. I take in to account the bleed when mixing out in the room. A couple of mics are only used on about 2-3 songs, but it's less hassle to leave them on all night. I know it not a huge amount going to FOH, but I have noticed the difference at soundcheck when im out front

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, mike257 said:

 

Acquired through getting it wrong plenty of times on the long road to occasionally getting it right 🤣

 

Interesting to hear they're still having big problems with feedback when running a silent stage with IEM. 

 

What I'd be looking at is:

 

How loud are they trying to run their PA

How big a space are they trying to fill

Where is the PA positioned relative to the mics

Where are the mics positioned relative to the PA and to any acoustically reflective surfaces in the room

 

 

Although their stage volume isn't an issue in terms of backline levels, if they're trying to play a "loud" show, they could still be getting in their own way with the mix. The Alto speakers are definitely at the cheap and cheerful end of the PA world, and whilst I'd imagine they'd do ok as purely vocal amplification over a band playing through backline at a sensible gig level, they're being asked to do a lot of work in carrying the whole band on a silent stage and probably being pushed beyond what they're really capable of. That's a lot of dynamic information and transients, and a much more constant load on the amps and drivers than purely pushing vocal, so they'll likely be running at their limits. 

 

As you mention, mic choice could help too, and the trusty old 58 isn't the mainstay it once was. There's plenty of options out there with a tighter pickup pattern. 

 

There's also the usual things about vocal performance to consider - is the singer projecting and giving out a reasonable volume, or are they whisper quiet? Are they on top of the mic or backing off/singing at a distance from it?

 

EDIT: Just to add - I've just taken a look at the Zoom L12, as it's not a desk I'm familiar with. I see there's a one-knob compressor on each channel. Not sure how much of that they're using on the vocal, but if they are doing, that could also do more harm than good in this situation with regards to achievable level before feedback. If they're using it on the vocals, I'd suggest dialling it back or fully bypassing it and seeing if that helps them out. Usual vocal mixing tips apply too - making sure the high pass filter (labelled "Low Cut" on the Zoom) is engaged on the vocal mics, and making judicious and careful use of the channel EQ. 

 

Thanks Mike, excellent post as ever.

Could I ask whereabouts you're based and are you playing bass in a band or mainly focusing on the sound engineering side of things?

[Owen]

1 hour ago, mike257 said:

 

Acquired through getting it wrong plenty of times on the long road to occasionally getting it right 🤣

 

Interesting to hear they're still having big problems with feedback when running a silent stage with IEM. 

 

What I'd be looking at is:

 

How loud are they trying to run their PA

How big a space are they trying to fill

Where is the PA positioned relative to the mics

Where are the mics positioned relative to the PA and to any acoustically reflective surfaces in the room

 

 

Although their stage volume isn't an issue in terms of backline levels, if they're trying to play a "loud" show, they could still be getting in their own way with the mix. The Alto speakers are definitely at the cheap and cheerful end of the PA world, and whilst I'd imagine they'd do ok as purely vocal amplification over a band playing through backline at a sensible gig level, they're being asked to do a lot of work in carrying the whole band on a silent stage and probably being pushed beyond what they're really capable of. That's a lot of dynamic information and transients, and a much more constant load on the amps and drivers than purely pushing vocal, so they'll likely be running at their limits. 

 

As you mention, mic choice could help too, and the trusty old 58 isn't the mainstay it once was. There's plenty of options out there with a tighter pickup pattern. 

 

There's also the usual things about vocal performance to consider - is the singer projecting and giving out a reasonable volume, or are they whisper quiet? Are they on top of the mic or backing off/singing at a distance from it?

 

EDIT: Just to add - I've just taken a look at the Zoom L12, as it's not a desk I'm familiar with. I see there's a one-knob compressor on each channel. Not sure how much of that they're using on the vocal, but if they are doing, that could also do more harm than good in this situation with regards to achievable level before feedback. If they're using it on the vocals, I'd suggest dialling it back or fully bypassing it and seeing if that helps them out. Usual vocal mixing tips apply too - making sure the high pass filter (labelled "Low Cut" on the Zoom) is engaged on the vocal mics, and making judicious and careful use of the channel EQ. 

I would be very interested in what people would suggest instead of Ye Olde 58. I know there are many options. But names would be useful Thanks. 

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

My drummer recently changed from his SM58 to something that was supposed to be more directional. Made no difference at all lol. 

 

 

Interestingly a lot of drummers used to go for SM57s rather than 58s. Do you know what mic your drummer upgraded to?

[mike257]

49 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Thanks Mike, excellent post as ever.

Could I ask whereabouts you're based and are you playing bass in a band or mainly focusing on the sound engineering side of things?

 

I'm based up in sunny Liverpool. Sadly no time to play in a band these days, as much as I miss it. I'm a tour manager/production manager and sound engineer, so spend a lot of time on the road. Doesn't fit in well with making it to rehearsals every week!

[mike257]

38 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Interestingly a lot of drummers used to go for SM57s rather than 58s. Do you know what mic your drummer upgraded to?

 

The 57 actually has the same capsule as the 58, the only differences are the grille enclosure, and any difference in sound is from the difference in proximity to the diaphragm from not having the big silver ball in the way 🤣

 

The Beta56a is popular with drummers, slightly tighter pickup pattern and the compact size makes it a little easier to get in position. 

 

I've been using SE V7 as my go to vocal mic for a while now and been pretty happy with that on drum vox too. Positioning is pretty key for a drum vocal, I like to use a good solid stand with a gooseneck extension and come in from above the left shoulder, so you can get it in close to their mouth, and try to get the nearest cymbals in the rejection point of the pickup pattern, without it completely getting in the way of arm movement. 

 

Any drum vocal is always going to be a big nasty drum overhead though, especially with a hard hitting drummer. It's definitely a case of making the best of a bad situation!

[dave_bass5]

57 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

 

Interestingly a lot of drummers used to go for SM57s rather than 58s. Do you know what mic your drummer upgraded to?

He got this one. Ive not really read up on it, but he says it’s better from drummers. He tends to have the mic facing down, towards the kit, so no mic like this is going to make much difference 

https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Audix-OM2-Dynamic-Microphone-Secondhand/6Q0H?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_kjLSy0WpNqQq3ej3B9PDSd3UJp

[mike257]

12 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

He got this one. Ive not really read up on it, but he says it’s better from drummers. He tends to have the mic facing down, towards the kit, so no mic like this is going to make much difference 

https://www.gear4music.com/Recording-and-Computers/Audix-OM2-Dynamic-Microphone-Secondhand/6Q0H?origin=product-ads&gad_source=1&gbraid=0AAAAAD_kjLSy0WpNqQq3ej3B9PDSd3UJp

 

Haven't used the OM2 myself but from what I hear you need to be pretty tight up on it to get the best of it. Even something with a tight pickup pattern is still going to be full of drums when he backs his face off it though. 

 

You can get gooseneck extensions for about 10/15 quid, might be worth a punt to see if you can get the positioning a little better for him.  

 

Soundcheck pic of one in use here - I'd usually go a little higher with the stand and come in from above more, but this was what that particular drummer found comfortable to work with without obstructing his playing. 

 

[Jack]

1 hour ago, Owen said:

I would be very interested in what people would suggest instead of Ye Olde 58. I know there are many options. But names would be useful Thanks. 

The Prodipe TT1 is superb as a loud stage vocal mic. I bought my two based on the thread on pro sound web. 

[Jack]

1 hour ago, mike257 said:

Any drum vocal is always going to be a big nasty drum overhead though, especially with a hard hitting drummer. It's definitely a case of making the best of a bad situation!

And any mic on the front line is just a drum and backline mic too. In my last two bands I used optigates on the backing vocal mics to keep them turned off until you shove your face in them. That might be something to look into if there's a drummer struggling. It won't help them get thier voice above the drums when they're singing (as mentioned, that's what a tight pickup pattern is for) but it will mean there's no drums coming through when there's no vocals. 

 

I know most digital mixers have software noise gates but I never could ride them enough whilst also being the bassist. Hardware ones are brilliant.