Better keyboard; suggestions

[crazycloud]

I bought a cheap 61 key Alpha KB to help learn theory and am looking for something better in feel and tone as I get better at it. A nice action similar to a real piano would be nice as I'm sure a nice acoustic piano will turn up locally sooner or later.

 

The two I'm looking at are the Yamaha P125 and the Kawai ES110 which is being run out, or the newer, basically identical ES120.

I'd like MIDI so I can use it as a synth for my own projects with my music PC using Arturia and maybe some of the open source synth plug ins.

 

I'd prefer new, unless I can score a great deal S/H for something recent.

 

Any more keyboard savvy users like to off their tuppence worth?

[Happy Jack]

By "action similar to a real piano" I'm guessing you mean a weighted keyboard? IME these tend to be heavier and more expensive and, while excellent for piano, are much less so if you're nearer the Hammond end of the scale.

 

I know NOTHING about MIDI and I plan to keep it that way, so bear that in mind when reading my comments below. 🙈🙉🙊

 

In my sitting room I have an Alesis Recital Pro and a Casio WK-7600, both for home use only. The Alesis was an excellent buy, just over £300 (new) for an 88-key stage piano with proper weighted keyboard and a (limited) range of other sounds. The Casio is surprisingly competent for an entry-level 76-key synth. Nearly £400 new if you can still find one, plenty of pre-owned on the market.

 

I'm not keen to gig either of these. The Alesis is large and heavy and, while the piano sounds are excellent, no pub or festival audience is ever going to notice the difference between those sounds and the ones that I actually use on stage. The Casio is, frankly, a bit on the flimsy side ... knock it off its stand or have a drummer tread on it by accident while setting up and it's not likely to survive. Also, the brass sounds on the Casio are really quite poor.

 

For live use I have a Hammond SK1-61 and a Korg Kross, both bought pre-owned for less than half the new price. Which is just as well, since those two bought new today would cost £2700. 😱

 

I bought the Korg specifically because I like the brass sounds so much. It does everything else really well too, including drawbar organ, but it's the brass that sold it to me. Keyboard is fairly standard synth-type, not as lightweight as the Casio but not really 'weighted' either. The Hammond ... well what can you say? It's a Hammond, plays like a tiny, lightweight B3, sounds like a B3 (if you want it to), has a 'waterfall' keyboard that is excellent for Stevie Winwood swoops and whooshes, and it instantly, utterly NAILS the whole Hammond vibe. No matter how well the Korg does drawbar organ, the second I switch to the Hammond I can see smiles breaking out all around me.

 

[Quatschmacher]

17 hours ago, crazycloud said:

I bought a cheap 61 key Alpha KB to help learn theory and am looking for something better in feel and tone as I get better at it. A nice action similar to a real piano would be nice as I'm sure a nice acoustic piano will turn up locally sooner or later.

 

The two I'm looking at are the Yamaha P125 and the Kawai ES110 which is being run out, or the newer, basically identical ES120.

I'd like MIDI so I can use it as a synth for my own projects with my music PC using Arturia and maybe some of the open source synth plug ins.

 

I'd prefer new, unless I can score a great deal S/H for something recent.

 

Any more keyboard savvy users like to off their tuppence worth?

The ES120 corrects a complaint that users of the ES110 had. The Kawai actions are very good. 
 

Also worth looking at Roland FP30X at that price point.

 

None of the models you mentioned have pitch and mod wheels as they are aimed more at piano rather than synth/controller functionality. There are other devices you could add to get that functionality but weighted piano keyboards aren’t always the best solution for playing synth parts. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by Quatschmacher

[Woodinblack]

I have a yamaha (and older model) which I love, because it is 'just' a piano (to be fair it does have the options of another couple of voices but I never use them) and sometimes it is good to play just a piano and focus on what you are playing rather than the sound (the sound is fine but, its just a piano).

Above it I have a synth in case I want to play synth stuff, worry about sounds and control issues.

The piano is midi'd up, as sometimes I use it to record midi from, but I wouldn't actually really use it as a master keyboard for anything, I would use the roland with its synth keys and controls.

Or if I wanted real control I have the roli or linstrument.

 

Point is, for me, a piano is a piano and a synth / controller is a synth controller, and although I would run a piano sound from the synth, I wouldn't really run a synth from the piano

[Quatschmacher]

5 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I have a yamaha (and older model) which I love, because it is 'just' a piano (to be fair it does have the options of another couple of voices but I never use them) and sometimes it is good to play just a piano and focus on what you are playing rather than the sound (the sound is fine but, its just a piano).

Above it I have a synth in case I want to play synth stuff, worry about sounds and control issues.

The piano is midi'd up, as sometimes I use it to record midi from, but I wouldn't actually really use it as a master keyboard for anything, I would use the roland with its synth keys and controls.

Or if I wanted real control I have the roli or linstrument.

 

Point is, for me, a piano is a piano and a synth / controller is a synth controller, and although I would run a piano sound from the synth, I wouldn't really run a synth from the piano

Yes, there’s a lot of sense to this. Although I have a few synths, I’m getting the most enjoyment out of practicing and writing on piano and have been getting much more compositions finished that way.

 

I was actually looking at using my MP11SE to control synths as it has decent MIDI capability with zones and pitch and mod controls but the long piano keysticks and the low trigger point don’t really lend themselves to typical synth playing. It is nice when layering and to have the extended range compared to a 3- or 5-octave keyboard though. 

[crazycloud]

49 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

The ES120 corrects a complaint that users of the ES110 had.

Which is what if I may? Would it be better to pay for the ES120 or the ES110 on runout?

56 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

The Kawai actions are very good.

Good to hear.

57 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

None of the models you mentioned have pitch and mod wheels as they are aimed more at piano rather than synth/controller functionality. There are other devices you could add to get that functionality but weighted piano keyboards aren’t always the best solution for playing synth parts. 

30 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Point is, for me, a piano is a piano and a synth / controller is a synth controller, and although I would run a piano sound from the synth, I wouldn't really run a synth from the piano

Thanks guys. I know the sounds I want in my head, but dunno how to get them. I'm good with technology and will work it out once I have the gear in hand, I'm just not sure what to buy. 

 

Synth controllers don't seem difficult to find secondhand. Time to do more research in this regard I think, but what you're saying makes sense. Suggestions in this regard will also be gratefully received.

 

[Quatschmacher]

2 hours ago, crazycloud said:

Which is what if I may? Would it be better to pay for the ES120 or the ES110 on runout?

Good to hear.

Thanks guys. I know the sounds I want in my head, but dunno how to get them. I'm good with technology and will work it out once I have the gear in hand, I'm just not sure what to buy. 

 

Synth controllers don't seem difficult to find secondhand. Time to do more research in this regard I think, but what you're saying makes sense. Suggestions in this regard will also be gratefully received.

 

From what I read, there was undesirable key wobble on the ES110. With all these things, get yourself somewhere where you can try them all out and see what is acceptable and works for you. Bonner’s has three sites and is decently stocked.

 

For controllers, check out stuff by Arturia (Keylab), Novation, Native Instruments, Studiologic, etc and see what speaks to you in terms of feel and features.

 

If you plan to go all-in with VSTs then the Kawai VPC paired with something like Synthogy’s Ivory II or Modartt’s Pianoteq gives better sound than onboard digital pianos. (Personally I like being able to play without having to use a PC, though I do use Ivory for recording.)

Edited September 8, 2022 by Quatschmacher

[crazycloud]

On 09/09/2022 at 00:16, Quatschmacher said:

From what I read, there was undesirable key wobble on the ES110. With all these things, get yourself somewhere where you can try them all out and see what is acceptable and works for you.

Thanks. I'm a bit remote to try most and will have to suck it and see.

 

On 09/09/2022 at 00:16, Quatschmacher said:

For controllers, check out stuff by Arturia (Keylab), Novation, Native Instruments, Studiologic, etc and see what speaks to you in terms of feel and features.

I will. 

 

Thanks for the tips.

[prowla]

I have two "piano action" keyboards: a Oberheim Viscount MC 2000 and a Roland A-80.

They are bloomin' heavy!

[BigRedX]

Better is entirely subjective, and will also be dependant upon what sort of a keyboard player you are a what sorts of sounds you want to get out of it. Even for pianos there are a  lot of different actions available.

 

Most serious keyboardists will have at least two keyboard controllers one with a piano-style weight and action and another lighter one for organ and synth sounds.

[Earbrass]

I have a Kawai MP7 stage piano. For piano, and electric piano, it's first class. With digital pianos, it's not just the sound that's important, but also the way the sound responds to the touch and feel with which one plays. I cannot fault it on that, and the piano sounds are also highly tweakable with the ability to eg adjust the degree of piano lid opening, etc etc. I've not bothered with these features much, as the basic piano sounds are fine as they are for me. I added the optional triple foot pedal (it came with just a sustain pedal) for the full grand piano experience. It has some other sounds, of varying quality and usefulness (basses and strings pretty good, organs not so much, a few synth sounds etc), but it's also a decent controller, having pitch and mod wheels and four layers, each of which can trigger internal or external sounds (on their own MIDI channels) or both simultaneously, and can be split or layered across the keyboard as desired. It also has a stereo line input, so an external synth can be routed back into the piano and mixed with the internal sounds. I don't think they make them any more. I bought mine maybe six or seven years ago for around £1300, and I noticed that recently Bonners had a second-hand one for a smidge under £800, so it might be worth keeping an eye out for a used one. I wouldn't recommend it if you think you might want to gig with it, though, as it weighs about 46lbs.

Edited September 10, 2022 by Earbrass

[Quatschmacher]

15 hours ago, Earbrass said:

I have a Kawai MP7 stage piano. For piano, and electric piano, it's first class. With digital pianos, it's not just the sound that's important, but also the way the sound responds to the touch and feel with which one plays. I cannot fault it on that, and the piano sounds are also highly tweakable with the ability to eg adjust the degree of piano lid opening, etc etc. I've not bothered with these features much, as the basic piano sounds are fine as they are for me. I added the optional triple foot pedal (it came with just a sustain pedal) for the full grand piano experience. It has some other sounds, of varying quality and usefulness (basses and strings pretty good, organs not so much, a few synth sounds etc), but it's also a decent controller, having pitch and mod wheels and four layers, each of which can trigger internal or external sounds (on their own MIDI channels) or both simultaneously, and can be split or layered across the keyboard as desired. It also has a stereo line input, so an external synth can be routed back into the piano and mixed with the internal sounds. I don't think they make them any more. I bought mine maybe six or seven years ago for around £1300, and I noticed that recently Bonners had a second-hand one for a smidge under £800, so it might be worth keeping an eye out for a used one. I wouldn't recommend it if you think you might want to gig with it, though, as it weighs about 46lbs.

These were superseded by the MP7SE which is still in production. 

[Jolltax]

We have had a Yamaha Clavinova electronic piano for 20 years, it was quite expensive (was £1300 new when we bought it) but it plays beautifully and nicer than any 'real' piano I could afford or fit in my house -and with the benefit of not requiring any maintenance. The keyboard is lovely, weighted and touch sensitive.

 

My mum and my sisters all have always had 'real' pianos, personally I would rather have a Yamaha like ours although I suppose its not quite as nice to look at as a piece of 'furniture'

 

I don't know anything about other electronic options but as a result of this post I googled ours and am surprised to see it sells for more now secondhand than when I bought it, they obviously keep their value.  Not selling it though .... 😀