Talk to me about the pitfalls and vagaries of having a 12 string bass built (Eee Aaa Ddd Ggg)

[warwickhunt]

First off I'm not building it!  I'm actually looking to inform my design and thought process to have one made for me (no builder selected)... and writing this might clarify my thinking.   

 

Background - I've had a Cheap Trick tribute on the back burner since 1979... realistically 2010 but it has come to the point where if I am going to do this I need to knuckle-down and sort the actual instrument for bass use.  I've subsequently put a band together and everyone is a serious CT fan and onboard.  I just don't have the prerequisite 12 string Tom Petersson bass!  I might be able to find a Dean Rhapsody or Hamer Chaparral but I want a more authentic looking TP bass/replica and they are as rare as honest politicians! 

 

Hence I am now at a point where custom build looks to be the only (expensive) option (ie the financial hit if the project falls apart will be greater than if I sell a ready manufactured bass) but I'm prepared to commit to it.  

 

My questions / dilemma revolve around overall weight (I have a dicky shoulder which copes OK with sub 9lb basses) balance (S M L scale) and playability of a bass with 12 strings, tuners etc.  I'm familiar with and focused on the early Cheap Trick Hamer basses of the B12S (short scale double cut) / M (medium scale double cut) / A (long scale single cut)

 

B12S

 

B12M

 

B12A

 

I own 4 string short scale basses and don't find them lacking in bass but worry about all the extra strings and their effect on the sound.  

IF a long scale had the bridge set back as far as possible; B12A with bridge at the rear edge would bring the strap button to 12th fret... yes/no?

Upper fret access isn't technically vital... 12/14ish will do!

Could a strap button extension be added to any of the basses as per my Bolin 4 strings to stop imbalance?  ...actually the answer is obviously yes!

A double cut will weigh less than a SC but could body thickness off-set?

 

 

Electronics I am less worried about as I'll go for humbuckers in some form as per the above (I hate SC hum) and likely as not active electronics. 

 

Am I missing any points / issues... talk to me, guide me.  I might not use everything suggested but any thoughts/info will inform my decisions.  

 

Sorry for meandering.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[3below]

To encourage you, this, as built by my own bodging does not have neck dive,  weighs in at 7.9lb (less now that the neck has a reduced profile) , 30.9" scale. Strap button is at about the 17th fret.

 

 

 

It does have a 1Lb block of lead at the bridge end to stop neck dive.  On the next one I am going to use an aluminium strap button extension bar behind the neck for the upper strap horn, rather than adding weight.  A shorter scale length as @Jabba_the_gut uses in his builds would (obviously) help offset the increased machine head masses.  Body elongation (as you hint at with reduced neck length) will also help.  This bass has 13.5mm string spacing, playable with a plectrum, at the limit for me with fingerstyle.   String spacing  with 12 strings will be an interesting set of compromises.  

 

Edited September 11, 2022 by 3below
surplus image removed

[warwickhunt]

Yes, the body/top horn length will be important on something that will have a lot of mass at the headstock, especially as I want to keep weight down.

 

String spacing is just what it is.  There is only so much space available and I'll be using a plectrum with no need to pick individual strings, just groups of 3. 

 

 

[TheGreek]

I don't want to be a naysayer but it sounds like you're planning on spending a not insignificant amount of money for one particular project. What happens if the project doesn't happen or take off?

 

I suspect your return on the bass, if sold, will be a rather nasty hit....

[warwickhunt]

8 minutes ago, TheGreek said:

I don't want to be a naysayer but it sounds like you're planning on spending a not insignificant amount of money for one particular project. What happens if the project doesn't happen or take off?

 

I suspect your return on the bass, if sold, will be a rather nasty hit....

 

You are absolutely correct... and I mean ABSOLUTELY correct.    

 

However, I've been a massive Cheap Trick fan for 43 years so this is my homage bass to that band.  If I'm honest, it is a last resort.  I've spent close on 20 years watching for a proper USA Hamer bass to come up used but it has never happened.  I've also bought and owned a couple of brand 12 string basses but they just weren't aesthetically what is needed.  I've chased down long dead leads on BC / FB / internet etc to no avail, I've also had wanted ads out at various times over the years and still have friends watching for something appropriate.  

 

I'm reckoning £1500+ to have something built but I'd happily spend that and more on a pukka model that hit my needs.  We'll see how it pans out, if I end up getting quoted multiples of my initial figure then it is a none starter.    

[bartelby]

I'm sure @Basvarkencould contribute to this thread.

[Maude]

My, frankly unconventional, brain is starting to make stupid noises again. 

If you want to commission, and are happy to fund, a proper 'tribute' bass then I totally get that. But if keeping costs down come into play, could an existing bass be converted? 

I don't know the kind of neck dimensions a 12 string has but if bigger than your average four string could a five string become a doner? 

Plug the machine head holes with dowel, veneer the headstock and re-drill for 12 tuners. Replace the nut and bridge and Bob's your proverbial. 

You could then take it as far as you want. 

Pickups could be replaced with rail/blade types if pole pieces are an issue, even fill the pickup cavities with wood blocks and fit a suitable pickguard, or veneer the entire body face, then route for your chosen pickup type/placement. The body could be chambered under the new top for weight saving although would probably upset balance. Basically there's allsorts that could be done to an existing bass to save costs. 

Or it's a stupid idea and you can ignore me 😁. 

[warwickhunt]

Not silly ideas at all @Maude and something I am considering.  Hardware costs will be the same whether I use a doner or a custom build.  

 

I suppose the biggest drawback is finding a bass in 5 string mode (yes neck needs to be about 55mm wide at the nut) that could accommodate 12 tuners on the headstock AND be of a shape that would fit my tribute needs.  It rules out ALL Fender style basses and if you look at images of 12ers (inc in my original post), every one has 6 on each side headstock... and they are long!    

[Richard R]

This cheap trick could turn out rather costly, but I'm fascinated. 

[warwickhunt]

32 minutes ago, Richard R said:

This cheap trick could turn out rather costly, but I'm fascinated. 

 

...distinctly NOT Cheap Trick! 

 

[Maude]

5 hours ago, warwickhunt said:

 

I suppose the biggest drawback is finding a bass in 5 string mode (yes neck needs to be about 55mm wide at the nut) that could accommodate 12 tuners on the headstock AND be of a shape that would fit my tribute needs.  It rules out ALL Fender style basses and if you look at images of 12ers (inc in my original post), every one has 6 on each side headstock... and they are long!    

Yes, looking at pictures, there's probably not a common 5 string that has a long enough headstock. 

[3below]

Left field way ahead with donor:  start with a used Chowny swb-1 since this is close to the Hamer shape.  Have a suitable person e.g. @Andyjr1515 or @Jabba_the_gut construct a suitable neck, fit this and and reshape the body if required.  The Chowny provides a set of pickups and nice fairly lightweight bass machines.  Neck dive might still be an issue unless you go for the strap extension bar.

 

Whether this is more cost effective than a full custom build is another question.

[AndyTravis]

On 10/09/2022 at 11:22, bartelby said:

I'm sure @Basvarkencould contribute to this thread.

Came here to say this…

[warwickhunt]

From my research and costings, the body is the least expensive part of the total build and reshaping a Chowny or building a body from scratch has little difference.  A bolt on neck is also fraught with tension issues with 12 string pull so a NT makes more sense.

 

Initial costings are pointing to a full custom build being into several thousand which is edging toward unfeasible.  I totally accept that a builder makes his living so no argument with their costs but as a project which 'might' have limited longevity or at least limited gigs per year (which I knew).  Lots of reflection atm.

[Maude]

Buy a Variax and use the 12 string setting. 😁

 

 

[warwickhunt]

3 minutes ago, Maude said:

Buy a Variax and use the 12 string setting. 😁

 

 

 

TBH I've been rehearsing with a 4 string and some jiggery pokery with TC pedals and you'd be hard pushed to hear the difference live... it is the authentic aesthetics.  I'd happily play a 4 rather than a 12! 

 

[Maude]

I've just managed to delete a lengthy reply. 🙄

 

Short version,

Variax, glitchy,

Aesthetics, I agree,

Schecter DP looks decent, but wrong. 

😁

[3below]

If it can be done with fx then appearance is somewhat easier imo.  A dc bass e.g Gibson, or this https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/468542-antoria-new-yorker-short-scale-bass-£250/,

 

 

Fabricate  a cosmetic headstock plate (2mm aluminium, black scratch-plate plastic?) that is the correct Hamer V shape and length, held down by the machine head ferrules and add some faux tuner heads to make up the other eight.  Just another left field thought.

Edited September 11, 2022 by 3below

[warwickhunt]

10 minutes ago, 3below said:

If it can be done with fx then appearance is somewhat easier imo.  A dc bass e.g Gibson, or this https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/468542-antoria-new-yorker-short-scale-bass-£250/,

 

 

Fabricate  a cosmetic headstock plate (2mm aluminium, black scratch-plate plastic?) that is the correct Hamer V shape and length, held down by the machine head ferrules and add some faux tuner heads to make up the other eight.  Just another left field thought.

 

Not a bad idea tbh and oddly that bass is local.  Painting black coach lines (strings) on the body might work from a distance.  

[3below]

45 minutes ago, warwickhunt said:

 

Not a bad idea tbh and oddly that bass is local.  Painting black coach lines (strings) on the body might work from a distance.  

Car detailing stripes, silver, 0.5mm  If a) I did not have too many basses and b) lived nearer Newcastle these days - Chopwell / High Spen as a young child, the bass would be very tempting.  I had noticed it was local to you

 

For greater reality, It might be possible to fabricate an aluminium block to fit at the bridge and black plastic block at the neck with holes drilled at the right string spacing with stiff silver colour wires to replicate the extra strings (but below the business of real playing).  Fix this onto the body with double sided tape.  The grid in the image below, held flat on the body, at the correct sizes etc., gives the idea.  (you will however, not need the microwave source and detector, happy? memories from teaching physics lol).  The silver detailing tape could continue the effect on the fretboard.  It might have to be done in four parts, bridge to pickup - grid, over pickup - detail tape, pickup to neck - grid, fretboard - detail tape.

 

 

With lights, loud music and an audience under the influence, 80% should be good enough.

Edited September 11, 2022 by 3below

[LukeFRC]

If you get someone to clone as much as possible the design of the Hamer you like the whole balance thing should be sorted without having to design additional strap button extentions....

But say you find someone with the skills to make a 12 string (and they will exist), it's not going to be a cheap venture. But gets you your Hamer type looking 12 string... 
How much would it cost to throw money at someone with a 12 string Hamer and convince someone to sell you one... if you ever move it on you might loose less that way. 

[warwickhunt]

10 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

If you get someone to clone as much as possible the design of the Hamer you like the whole balance thing should be sorted without having to design additional strap button extentions....

But say you find someone with the skills to make a 12 string (and they will exist), it's not going to be a cheap venture. But gets you your Hamer type looking 12 string... 
How much would it cost to throw money at someone with a 12 string Hamer and convince someone to sell you one... if you ever move it on you might loose less that way. 

 

That is pretty much exactly where I am at with my thinking.  

 

Option A) is that I get something faux 12 string which will sound pretty much like a 12 string or as near that it makes no difference to the sound of the band.

 

Option B) I wait and source something 2nd hand that is the real thing.  

 

Costing out the building of a 12 string regardless of shape, is likely to be in excess of £2500.  Admittedly I get exactly what I want but it would have very little resale value, certainly when you consider the number of people who would want (i) a 12 string (ii) a 12 string that mimics something that Tom Petersson uses... because that would be me.    

 

Could I get a genuine USA Hamer as per my needs for £2500?  Possibly but it might be a long wait and it would need to be someone in the UK as buying one from Europe/USA would incur 25% charges (bass would need to be less than £2k to buy or would end up costing £3k).   

 

One outside chance is that I source a Waterstone bass (which Tom used for a few years) which are generally a lot cheaper (but still very scarce) BUT I've heard they suffer terribly from neck dive.  I'm fairly sure there are at least a couple BCers who have owned/own Waterstones so I may need to send a couple of PMs to get a feel for how those basses felt/behaved.     

[AndyTravis]

I suppose it’s not absolutely correct, but there was a Hamer XT series 12 string which was Korean and latterly Indonesian - I’m led to believe they’re solid instruments but benefit from pickup2pre upgrade.

 

I have a mate with one, unfortunately he will not part with it - I know because I ask him every 2 weeks.

[warwickhunt]

4 minutes ago, AndyTravis said:

I suppose it’s not absolutely correct, but there was a Hamer XT series 12 string which was Korean and latterly Indonesian - I’m led to believe they’re solid instruments but benefit from pickup2pre upgrade.

 

I have a mate with one, unfortunately he will not part with it - I know because I ask him every 2 weeks.

 

Hamer XT... is that the MIK Chaparral?  

[Richard R]

Do you think you will get any fewer gigs playing a 4 string look-a-like compared to the real thing or a replica? Do you think the fans who come will throw things at you if you play a 4 with a false headstock, or just be mightily impressed that you took the time to look the part?

 

I would go with @3below's suggestion. And keep looking.