I Hate Compression!

[dclaassen]

Okay...hear me out please...

 

I have never really cared for compressed bass sound (or really, compressed anything sound) I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like the way the wave form is changed on a recording....and I think I have finally figured out why.

 

When I was in music school at uni, we had a physics of sound class. The professor took various instrument samples and started removing overtones. Pretty soon, they all sounded the same. Overtones are what define what our sound. Without overtones, it's very difficult to determine what kind of instrument you are listening to. 

 

Compression squashes the sound, and, I think, severely limits both overtones and transients in the wave form. This results in a "beefy" sound, but one without a whole lot of definition. I watched a Youtube with a guy playing a Martin D-45. First, without compression...it sounded amazing..just what you want from that wonderful guitar. He applied compression, and suddenly, it sounded like any generic acoustic guitar...it that what we are after??

 

I don't get it....

 

Enlighten me...

 

or not

  

[Jakester]

I don't really 'get' compression. TBH, I don't think I can ever hear it on a bass when I'm playing. I've had a few compressors over the years and none of them really made a wild difference to my sound. I'm sure some of that is entirely down to my inability to use them properly. I suppose I use it more as a limiter to stop wide volume disparity between patches. 

 

I find compressors much more effective when applied to a whole mix, or parts of it - I was recently messing around with some 70's esque drum parts for a recording, and if you took the toms out and added tons of compression, it really gave the sound we were looking for. 

 

But as a subtlety added to my own tone - nope, can't really hear it. 

[Osiris]

Compression is very much a misunderstood concept, you really need to understand compression to get the most from it and to apply it correctly. That cannot be overstated.

 

When done properly it's often invisible, in so far as it's not obvious, although it can be.  The subject has been covered many times on BC already so it's worth doing a search if you want to know more, although there is some ongoing misconceptions that keep cropping up. Better still, take a look at sound engineering sites online as you'll get a more objective overview. 

 

I've never heard of compression reducing overtones before, I'm not sure that's true. Compression is for controlling the overall waveform as well as signal spikes on the signal, including but not always the transients. 

 

As for the guy on YouTube with his acoustic guitar, it sounds like he didn't know what he was doing 🤷‍♂️

[Hobbayne]

I dont use it myself. I gather it is most prevalent in mixing to keep things smooth.

A good example of overuse of compression, is the stereo version of The Beatles Revolution, where the drums are squashed into a compressed ball in the left channel. 

[Quatschmacher]

53 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

Okay...hear me out please...

 

I have never really cared for compressed bass sound (or really, compressed anything sound) I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like the way the wave form is changed on a recording....and I think I have finally figured out why.

 

When I was in music school at uni, we had a physics of sound class. The professor took various instrument samples and started removing overtones. Pretty soon, they all sounded the same. Overtones are what define what our sound. Without overtones, it's very difficult to determine what kind of instrument you are listening to. 

 

Compression squashes the sound, and, I think, severely limits both overtones and transients in the wave form. This results in a "beefy" sound, but one without a whole lot of definition. I watched a Youtube with a guy playing a Martin D-45. First, without compression...it sounded amazing..just what you want from that wonderful guitar. He applied compression, and suddenly, it sounded like any generic acoustic guitar...it that what we are after??

 

I don't get it....

 

Enlighten me...

 

or not

  

Was the physics class using a low pass filter perhaps to remove upper harmonics reducing everything to a sine wave at the fundamental. That’s not compression. 

[BigRedX]

If this about compression on the bass or compression in general?

 

If you think you don't like compression on the bass either you have the best playing technique in the world or you are doing it wrong. All compression should be doing is changing the difference between the loudest and quietest parts of the signal. If it's doing anything else that's another process and not actual compression.

 

Also there are plenty of things that will add compression to your sound even if you you don't actually have a "compressor" in your signal chain. For a start anything with valves in it will be compressing the signal to some extent - it's part of that "warmth" as will any device producing "overdrive" or "distortion". If you're going through the PA the engineer will probably have added a compressor to your channel, and if not and they are dedicated, they'll be riding the fader which is essentially the same thing (but in most cases not as good). Similarly in the studio. You could automate all the level changes required in your DAW, but a well set up compressor will do the job quicker and more accurately. And don't forget that once the music gets above a certain volume all the audience's ears will be adding their own compression. You can't do anything about that (except play very quietly).

Edited September 21, 2022 by BigRedX

[fretmeister]

Like the above I don't understand the bit about cutting overtones. Overtones are usually quieter than the surrounding part of the tone and compression usually makes the overtones louder.

 

Compression is unavoidable. Every amp has it built in to an extent. Sometimes just as speaker protection, but often because the designer wants the amp to have a particular response.

 

The PA will be using compression and the FOH guy will be applying it to just about all the instruments to get the mix right for the audience, even if you haven't got any extra on your amp itself.

 

Even for acoustic instruments - there comes a time where the strength of the strum doesn't increase the volume anymore, but the sound still changes a bit. Same for brass and woodwind. At some point the extra air going in does not cause a higher output.

 

I use it quite a bit - but within a show I move from fingerstyle to plectrum to slap depending on the songs. the difference in dynamics for those 3 is massive. It's not a volume issue - (not that I could accurately set the volume for each song every time) - it's a dynamic range thing. A perfect plectrum strum could be just right, but be too quiet as a finger pluck, and completely over the top for a slap & pop.

 

[asingardenof]

I've only just started my journey with compression and only really use a small amount of it for just the reasons you've outlined. I try and use just enough to make sure my bass sounds like my bass, but that it also "fills out" my sound so my bass sits well in the mix. The first time I used my pedal my band were very impressed at how much of a difference a relatively small amount of compression made. I'm not a fan of massively compressed bass tones but I think a little goes a long way.

[wateroftyne]

I've never got anything out of outboard compression.

 

I don't use it down the Dog'n'Duck, and leave it to the sound guys everywhere else.

[Lozz196]

The only 2 compressors I`ve used that I could really get on with were the on-board ones on a TC Classic 450 and an Ampeg PF500. Turn, set & go, didn`t detract from the overall sound, nice & easy. Every other compressor I`ve tried, be they pedals or on-board other amps I`ve not been able to get what I want from them. 

[dclaassen]

2 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

Was the physics class using a low pass filter perhaps to remove upper harmonics reducing everything to a sine wave at the fundamental. That’s not compression. 

I was not suggesting that compression was used for that specific experiment. I was hoping folks could make the connection from eliminating overtones to compressing them...sorry to confuse....

[dclaassen]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

If this about compression on the bass or compression in general?

 

If you think you don't like compression on the bass either you have the best playing technique in the world or you are doing it wrong. All compression should be doing is changing the difference between the loudest and quietest parts of the signal. If it's doing anything else that's another process and not actual compression.

 

Also there are plenty of things that will add compression to your sound even if you you don't actually have a "compressor" in your signal chain. For a start anything with valves in it will be compressing the signal to some extent - it's part of that "warmth" as will any device producing "overdrive" or "distortion". If you're going through the PA the engineer will probably have added a compressor to your channel, and if not and they are dedicated, they'll be riding the fader which is essentially the same thing (but in most cases not as good). Similarly in the studio. You could automate all the level changes required in your DAW, but a well set up compressor will do the job quicker and more accurately. And don't forget that once the music gets above a certain volume all the audience's ears will be adding their own compression. You can't do anything about that (except play very quietly).

Not sure using compression, which changes the wave form and suppresses both transients and overtones is the same as riding the fader. Maybe I am not making myself clear. If you alter overtones via induced digital compression (which I believe is all digital...not sure) you are suppressing overtones, which changes the basic tone quality of the instrument. Yes, an amp can do that, but not close to the degree I hear bassist and other musicians using it. Additionally, most musicians in a group use overtones to tune...what do you use if they are not there--especially singers? 

[Boodang]

I think your example of a Martin guitar sums it up... for me I wouldn't use compression on my double bass but for my solid body bass guitar I do use it. 

[LukeFRC]

3 hours ago, dclaassen said:

I watched a Youtube with a guy playing a Martin D-45. First, without compression...it sounded amazing..just what you want from that wonderful guitar. He applied compression, and suddenly, it sounded like any generic acoustic guitar...it that what we are after??

So you liked YouTube’s compression, just not the extra stuff the guy turned on?

See some compression you don’t mind…

[dclaassen]

3 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

So you liked YouTube’s compression, just not the extra stuff the guy turned on?

See some compression you don’t mind…

Nope...I cannot avoid YouTube's compress, and if you remember a previous topic, we talked about the evils of data compression. I know it's there, and I don't like it either. Why are you trying to pick a fight that's not there?

[LukeFRC]

52 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

Nope...I cannot avoid YouTube's compress, and if you remember a previous topic, we talked about the evils of data compression. I know it's there, and I don't like it either. Why are you trying to pick a fight that's not there?

Because a few people have made comments along the lines of:

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

If you think you don't like compression on the bass either you have the best playing technique in the world or you are doing it wrong.

 

and in the context of the discussion of “I don’t like compression “ the fact you are comparing a compressed recording you like to a compressed recording you don’t like has some relevance.

 

you should check out how the old Warwick hellborg rig was designed - to my mind a very uncompressed design of rig.

[ezbass]

I didn’t use compression for many, many years. Then, I started using a tube amp simulation live and folk in the band commented on how good it sounded, I didn’t think about it too much, just kept using it. Then, when Covid and lockdown hit, I became involved with recording projects, as did a lot of other people. When I was mixing my part, I shared the file with a friend who is a fabulous FOH engineer who owns his own sound reinforcement company that does many prestigious events. He liked the recording and the mix, but suggested I try a particular set of compression parameters on my bass track. I tried it and it was a revelation. Rather than burying my track, it made it sit better and sound really punchy and this was with quite subtle compression settings. I immediately went about finding a compressor pedal that I could obtain a close approximation of these settings with. I did (an MXR M87) and it worked just as I’d hoped, when I returned to playing live. It then became apparent that the tube amp sim I’d been using pre lockdown, was compressing my bass in a similar fashion, which, albeit with added dirt, was making the difference, when I used it. My compressor is now a permanently on feature of my pedal board, with the amp sim only there to add some grind when required. Rather than detracting from my overall tone, I find the compressor focuses it. YMMV.

[dclaassen]

7 minutes ago, ezbass said:

I didn’t use compression for many, many years. Then, I started using a tube amp simulation live and folk in the band commented on how good it sounded, I didn’t think about it too much, just kept using it. Then, when Covid and lockdown hit, I became involved with recording projects, as did a lot of other people. When I was mixing my part, I shared the file with a friend who is a fabulous FOH engineer who owns his own sound reinforcement company that does many prestigious events. He liked the recording and the mix, but suggested I try a particular set of compression parameters on my bass track. I tried it and it was a revelation. Rather than burying my track, it made it sit better and sound really punchy and this was with quite subtle compression settings. I immediately went about finding a compressor pedal that I could obtain a close approximation of these settings with. I did (an MXR M87) and it worked just as I’d hoped, when I returned to playing live. It then became apparent that the tube amp sim I’d been using pre lockdown, was compressing my bass in a similar fashion, which, albeit with added dirt, was making the difference, when I used it. My compressor is now a permanently on feature of my pedal board, with the amp sim only there to add some grind when required. Rather than detracting from my overall tone, I find the compressor focuses it. YMMV.

I appreciate how you use it. I use a tube amp (Dual Showman) which, I know, adds some natural compression. What I am not sure about is why it is so important to not have your tonal parameters bleed into "other instruments'" territory. If you have overtones, you are all going to contribute additive (unless out of tune or using heavily altered chords) vibrations to the mix, creating a combined "ring" which adds to the tonal presence and depth of tone in the whole group. At least, that's how it works in acoustic ensembles. I just don't know what I am missing.....

[PaulThePlug]

I must admit... i dont totaly get it... am inforced and wanted loss of dynamic range... used to avoid Auto Recording Level on casset decks etc...
can understand if ya want just a constant level... 

[ezbass]

3 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

I appreciate how you use it. I use a tube amp (Dual Showman) which, I know, adds some natural compression. What I am not sure about is why it is so important to not have your tonal parameters bleed into "other instruments'" territory. If you have overtones, you are all going to contribute additive (unless out of tune or using heavily altered chords) vibrations to the mix, creating a combined "ring" which adds to the tonal presence and depth of tone in the whole group. At least, that's how it works in acoustic ensembles. I just don't know what I am missing.....

I’m not sure I’m losing overtones, but maybe I am. However, in a mix, it seems to sit better, maybe that means stand out, without interfering with other sounds in the mix, which may cause sonic mush.

 

The long and short of it is, if you don’t like what compression does, don’t use it, there are no rules that say you must or must not use a particular sound, which also applies to eq or any effect. If it sounds good, it is good. As I said, YMMV.

[dclaassen]

1 minute ago, PaulThePlug said:

I must admit... i dont totaly get it... am inforced and wanted loss of dynamic range... used to avoid Auto Recording Level on casset decks etc...
can understand if ya want just a constant level... 

Yup...right there with you. I like the transient sounds and attacks and being able to provide a lot of dynamic range. I don't know why you would choose to limit that....

 

Agree about recording...then it makes a bit of sense, but, even then, I still don't get it, unless it just makes it easier for the sound guy....

[dclaassen]

Just now, ezbass said:

I’m not sure I’m losing overtones, but maybe I am. However, in a mix, it seems to sit better, maybe that means stand out, without interfering with other sounds in the mix, which may cause sonic mush.

 

The long and short of it is, if you don’t like what compression does, don’t use it, there are no rules that say you must or must not use a particular sound, which also applies to eq or any effect. If it sounds good, it is good. As I said, YMMV.

Absolutely would not say you shouldn't use it if you like it. It's like ripped jeans....I just don't get it.....

 

And yes, I am old..:)

[Osiris]

8 minutes ago, dclaassen said:

Yup...right there with you. I like the transient sounds and attacks and being able to provide a lot of dynamic range. I don't know why you would choose to limit that....

 

Agree about recording...then it makes a bit of sense, but, even then, I still don't get it, unless it just makes it easier for the sound guy....

 

Can I respectfully ask that you give this a read - Killed my tone (ovnilab.com)

Edited September 21, 2022 by Osiris
Typo

[Osiris]

Just now, Osiris said:

 

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Osiris
Duplicate post, ignore

[jimfist]

On 21/09/2022 at 10:55, dclaassen said:

Yup...right there with you. I like the transient sounds and attacks and being able to provide a lot of dynamic range. I don't know why you would choose to limit that....

 

Agree about recording...then it makes a bit of sense, but, even then, I still don't get it, unless it just makes it easier for the sound guy....

 

I agree with this sentiment, but this also need not be the case.

This doesn't account for compressors that have discrete ATTACK control, and further, not just any variable attack range will do. 

I also prefer to preserve the attack dynamics of my sound, and thus set the attack parameter of my compressor ( currently, Source Audio Atlas ) to be fairly long, 40msec or so.

Many compressors do not allow for these longer attack times, and thus wind up squashing the attack when it isn't desirable.

When set for long attack time, what happens when the compressor is working is that it compresses the tone AFTER the primary attack has passed through, and it does some very pleasing things to the fullness of the tone.

I will say that I learned the hard way with compressors, and it took a lot of trial and error with many different comps to figure out which tools are better (or not) at performing certain tasks.

Just as a rubber mallet is used differently than a sledge hammer, though they are both in the "hammer" category, they are used differently for different tasks.

Given the vast number of compressors available, from simple to sophisticated, it seems a shame that compression gets a bad rap for lack of a full understanding of what is possible, and misunderstanding.

Typical compression - when not used as an obvious effect - will almost always enhance a (bass) tone when applied APPROPRIATELY.

Not all compressors are capable of executing what may be appropriate for a given sound.

What is appropriate varies greatly on many factors (the player, the tone, the context, etc., and the personal taste of the person employing the comp).

As a bassist, one may or may not care to use or technically NEED to use a compressor. But the person at the mixing desk may have many good reasons to do so, for different reasons than the bassist may be aware of.