PA upgrade for silent stage

[AxelF]

I know there's a couple of similar posts right now, but I didn't want to hijack anyone's thread - I'm looking for advice on upgrading our PA speakers please (I think!).

 

I play in a 5 piece rock/indie pub covers band and managed a year or two ago to convince everyone to ditch amps and run a silent stage with IEMs and everything through the PA. Everyone's fully on board and loves it, but it's left to me to try and engineer the gigs, which as we're playing in pubs inevitably means very short sound checks (more like line checks) and I never get chance to properly eq stuff, especially the bass.

 

I hired a rehearsal room at the weekend and set the gear up to give myself a few hours of trying different preamps and tweaking the eq to get a good bass sound, which ended up being an exercise in frustration. Rather than running out and buying new a new bass or more preamps I think I'll probably have more joy upgrading our PA speakers?

 

We run an XR18 mixer into Carlsbro Gamma 15/600 subs and use the HP filtered out from the subs into Mackie SRM450 tops. Having trawled through all the threads I can find on here over the last couple of years I'm only running one sub with any volume to try and avoid comb filtering (probably not too much of an issue in the smallish pubs we're in, but hey) but am just unable to get a punchy, decent sounding bass tone regardless of what I'm doing with the eq and which pre I'm using. 

 

I think the Carlsbros have a crossover of either 125 or 150Hz and I'm high passing the bass at 70Hz, so I imagine most of the FoH bass response is going to be left to the tops? I think I could probably experiment with the relative volumes I'm setting the subs and tops at too if I ever get chance.

 

Are the speakers the issue here do you think, and if I'm looking to upgrade them (they belong to the singer), are there any options which would realistically carry the full band without having to use a sub too? I'd really like it to be as compact a solution as possible if I'm going to have to start lugging/storing them too! If tops only isn't going to cut it regardless of the boxes used though then so be it. 

 

I see the RCF ART 7 series and the QSC K12.2s get a lot of mentions, with quite a few people using them as a backline option instead of a 'traditional' bass cab setup - does this mean they could potentially be used as a pair as FOH speakers and provide enough bottom end for the bass and kick without a sub? We run the bass and both guitars DI into the desk and mic the kick and snare/hats plus two overhead mics for the drums. Thankfully he plays very sensibly and usually uses rods so we can manage the volume via the PA regardless of the venue.

 

Would something more specifically bass-focussed be a better option and would they carry the guitars/vocals well enough? I see Barefaced used to do a FRFR powered speaker though they seem to be discontinued now - anyone know why? Would they be a better option than those I've mentioned, or are there any other makes/models I should be considering?

 

Thanks in advance for the help - this sub forum has been a goldmine in terms of getting my understanding to this point, and apologies if this feels like flogging a dead horse - most of the topics I've seen regarding these speakers are in the context of a backline 'rig replacement' though rather than something people are looking to put the whole band through.

Edited September 27, 2022 by AxelF

[Chienmortbb]

There are others out there probably better qualified than me but:  I think your HPF is set a little high. 50Hz would be my turnover point. Are you using your subs under the Tops at the side? That causes cancellations multiple subs should be grouped together, preferably in the centre. This YouTube video is very informative.

 

[police squad]

I can chuck this into the mix.

I run 2 x QSC K12 and 2 x QSC Ksub with an Allen & Heath ZedFX desk. When I play bass with this setup, I DI my Ashdown RM500 EVO 2 into it. I set the desk flat and I get a fabulous bass sound out front. The QSC gear is amazing. I haven't heard the K12.2 and new sub so I can't comment. People always comment on my sound quality

[AxelF]

1 hour ago, Chienmortbb said:

There are others out there probably better qualified than me but:  I think your HPF is set a little high. 50Hz would be my turnover point. Are you using your subs under the Tops at the side? That causes cancellations multiple subs should be grouped together, preferably in the centre. This YouTube video is very informative.

 

Thanks, yes subs positioned under the tops but I only run one with any volume - the other is switched on but with the volume knob all the way down to try and avoid cancellation issues.

Edited September 27, 2022 by AxelF

[AxelF]

3 minutes ago, police squad said:

I can chuck this into the mix.

I run 2 x QSC K12 and 2 x QSC Ksub with an Allen & Heath ZedFX desk. When I play bass with this setup, I DI my Ashdown RM500 EVO 2 into it. I set the desk flat and I get a fabulous bass sound out front. The QSC gear is amazing. I haven't heard the K12.2 and new sub so I can't comment. People always comment on my sound quality

That sounds great thanks - do you ever run them without the subs at gigs where you're relying on the PA to carry the bass in the room? Would they cope do you think or are the subs needed?

[police squad]

22 minutes ago, AxelF said:

That sounds great thanks - do you ever run them without the subs at gigs where you're relying on the PA to carry the bass in the room? Would they cope do you think or are the subs needed?

I do an 80s duo, with backing tracks and live keys and live guitar and they are amazing with this too. (this is without the subs and the deep switch engaged)

Never have DId the bass through the tops only so cant comment, sorry

Edited September 27, 2022 by police squad

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

1 hour ago, AxelF said:

Thanks, yes subs positioned under the tops but I only run one with any volume - the other is one but with the volume knob all the way down to try and avoid cancellation issues.

Pay attention to the video with respect to the subs. They should almost never be split left/right. The exception is when they're placed at least two wavelengths apart. At 50Hz two wavelengths is roughly 14 meters. A point the video doesn't touch on is that subs should be placed less than 1/2 wavelength away from the nearest wall for best results. At 100Hz that's 1.7 meters. Having them further out costs sensitivity, and can also result in boundary reflection sourced nulls. Most bands and DJs don't place subs correctly, simply because they don't know any better. It doesn't help when manufacturers show them set up that way, and put pole sockets on top of subs that encourages putting subs exactly where they should not be.

Quote

do you ever run them without the subs at gigs where you're relying on the PA to carry the bass in the room?

When you do that you don't have ground or wall reinforcement for the lows, probably have floor reflection response notches, and may have rear wall reflection response nulls as well. I always have my bass in the PA even though I seldom use subs, but do so only to give dispersion of the mids throughout the room. To that end I high pass the signal into the PA at 150Hz.

[AxelF]

Thanks Bill that's really useful - so the general rule is always tops plus sub(s) if you're relying solely on the PA for the bass sound out front?

 

The sort of places we're playing we're realistically never going to be able to centre cluster two subs - right now I have the two Carlsbro subs under the tops so they're split but only have the volume up on one - in our situation is it viable to have a system comprised of two tops and one well placed sub?

 

Do you have any experience with either Carlsbro subs or the Mackie tops we're using Bill, or are you able to give a steer regarding their suitability from the specs please? I'd be really interested in where you think the biggest win would be - replacing the Mackies with better tops or replacing the subs with either one or two better alternatives? Are there any particular makes/models of either you recommend please?

 

From a budget perspective if people have had success using one or two quality tops in place of a traditional head and bass cab setup as a backline, I could look at moving on my heads/cabs to fund the PA upgrade on the basis that any other gigs I pick up where I'm not running through the PA could be covered by the new 'FRFR backline', but if the purchase of one or two new better quality subs to run with the existing Mackies is the better option that's a different story. 

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Because of the need for boundary loading with bass subs are a must with no backline. I'm not familiar with your subs, but most subs of that sort are pretty much the same. I can't imagine using only one. Don't worry about center clustering, it's not necessary. Just put them together close to a wall wherever they'll fit. Sub output is omni-directional and the wavelengths are too long for them to be directionally located, so they can go anywhere. They don't even need to be aimed into the room. Aiming them at a wall can improve the low end loading and filter out above pass band harmonic distortion that you don't want to hear anyway.

I'm not the person to recommend new gear, though. The last time I used speakers not of my own design and making was around 1973.

[Phil Starr]

10 hours ago, AxelF said:

I hired a rehearsal room at the weekend and set the gear up to give myself a few hours of trying different preamps and tweaking the eq to get a good bass sound, which ended up being an exercise in frustration. Rather than running out and buying new a new bass or more preamps I think I'll probably have more joy upgrading our PA speakers?

This could be read any number of ways, was this just you without the band playing bass through the PA? If so that would only tell you a little about your PA. It may have been down to room acoustics. An empty hall with no audience can be incredibly reverberant so this may or may not have been a fair test. I sympathise with your frustration though.

 

I know the Mackies and although they are more than matched by modern rivals they aren't bad sounding speakers. You ought to be able to get a pretty good sound out of them. Carlsbro though have a pretty poor reputation and they look like they are in far too small a box to be effective subs. They could be an issue. HPF on a bass at 70Hz is way too high. 

 

Another thought is that you haven't said how you set the relative levels on the subs and tops. The temptation is to set them to give a good thump rather than match the output. The idea is not that the bass is louder than the tops without subs but that it is at the same level but with the lower frequencies extended downwards in frequency and power handling of the whole system increased. At the crossover point the tops and subs should be at the same volume. Unless you have measuring equipment try playing a recording you know well through the PA and adjust the levels to make the bass sound as natural as possible at low/medium volumes. If you can't reproduce recorded music well then you are only going to find it difficult to impossible to create a good sound from the band.

 

Moving on to a possible speaker upgrade. Until recently we used QSC K12-2's for our PA. In typical pubs I could run bass through them at high enough levels to work well. These were providing all of the FOH sound but I had a little Hartke as an on-stage monitor. Since then our singer left and took her QSC's with her so I've recently bought a couple of RCF 745's They'll do most of our gigs including kick and bass at high volumes without needing subs or backline. I have subs but I've only taken them out once in three years. You just don't need them for the average British pub gig.

 

I'm not sure that answers your basic question, whether you need to buy new PA speakers. I think that is probably up to you but you ought to be able to get at least a reasonable sound out of what you have. If you decide to upgrade then I'd probably spend on some really capable tops and only add the subs if experience says you are struggling at more than one of your venues.

 

 

[police squad]

10 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Because of the need for boundary loading with bass subs are a must with no backline. I'm not familiar with your subs, but most subs of that sort are pretty much the same. I can't imagine using only one. Don't worry about center clustering, it's not necessary. Just put them together close to a wall wherever they'll fit. Sub output is omni-directional and the wavelengths are too long for them to be directionally located, so they can go anywhere. They don't even need to be aimed into the room. Aiming them at a wall can improve the low end loading and filter out above pass band harmonic distortion that you don't want to hear anyway.

I'm not the person to recommend new gear, though. The last time I used speakers not of my own design and making was around 1973.

What about playing outside Bill. I do a couple of gigs each year, outside, no stage. I've been using the subs either side of the playing area with the top cabs on top of the subs.

From this I think the top cabs should be higher on separate stands, should the subs be at the side, next to each other (they can't go in the centre)

[Downunderwonder]

21 hours ago, AxelF said:

I know there's a couple of similar posts right now, but I didn't want to hijack anyone's thread - I'm looking for advice on upgrading our PA speakers please (I think!).

 

I play in a 5 piece rock/indie pub covers band and managed a year or two ago to convince everyone to ditch amps and run a silent stage with IEMs and everything through the PA. Everyone's fully on board and loves it, but it's left to me to try and engineer the gigs, which as we're playing in pubs inevitably means very short sound checks (more like line checks) and I never get chance to properly eq stuff, especially the bass.

 

I hired a rehearsal room at the weekend and set the gear up to give myself a few hours of trying different preamps and tweaking the eq to get a good bass sound, which ended up being an exercise in frustration. Rather than running out and buying new a new bass or more preamps I think I'll probably have more joy upgrading our PA speakers?

 

We run an XR18 mixer into Carlsbro Gamma 15/600 subs and use the HP filtered out from the subs into Mackie SRM450 tops. Having trawled through all the threads I can find on here over the last couple of years I'm only running one sub with any volume to try and avoid comb filtering (probably not too much of an issue in the smallish pubs we're in, but hey) but am just unable to get a punchy, decent sounding bass tone regardless of what I'm doing with the eq and which pre I'm using. 

 

I think the Carlsbros have a crossover of either 125 or 150Hz and I'm high passing the bass at 70Hz, so I imagine most of the FoH bass response is going to be left to the tops? I think I could probably experiment with the relative volumes I'm setting the subs and tops at too if I ever get chance.

 

Are the speakers the issue here do you think, and if I'm looking to upgrade them (they belong to the singer), are there any options which would realistically carry the full band without having to use a sub too? I'd really like it to be as compact a solution as possible if I'm going to have to start lugging/storing them too! If tops only isn't going to cut it regardless of the boxes used though then so be it. 

 

I see the RCF ART 7 series and the QSC K12.2s get a lot of mentions, with quite a few people using them as a backline option instead of a 'traditional' bass cab setup - does this mean they could potentially be used as a pair as FOH speakers and provide enough bottom end for the bass and kick without a sub? We run the bass and both guitars DI into the desk and mic the kick and snare/hats plus two overhead mics for the drums. Thankfully he plays very sensibly and usually uses rods so we can manage the volume via the PA regardless of the venue.

 

Would something more specifically bass-focussed be a better option and would they carry the guitars/vocals well enough? I see Barefaced used to do a FRFR powered speaker though they seem to be discontinued now - anyone know why? Would they be a better option than those I've mentioned, or are there any other makes/models I should be considering?

 

Thanks in advance for the help - this sub forum has been a goldmine in terms of getting my understanding to this point, and apologies if this feels like flogging a dead horse - most of the topics I've seen regarding these speakers are in the context of a backline 'rig replacement' though rather than something people are looking to put the whole band through.

Grab a couple of tripods for the Mackies and then you might need some longer cabling to plonk the subs together somewhere useful.

 

That should do the trick.

 

Finding a good spot to park subs is complicated by venue requirements which is why the default is the pole under top.

 

If you get a chance to set up and sound check while a joint is empty you can set up a single sub in the middle of the dancefloor. It doesn't have to be loud, play some bass heavy tune and go round the likely perimeter spots where you could actually put your subs. Listen for where the bass blooms the best. Then when you put your subs in that hot spot you get the boomf where you need it on the dancefloor.

[Woodinblack]

My setup was always 2 tops and one sub under one of the tops. Although changed now I have a RCF evox 8, and also change as at an open air gig there was a really bad rattle on one of the toms and we found out it was having the top on the pole above the sub, so now the top is back on a normal stand.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

5 hours ago, police squad said:

What about playing outside Bill. I do a couple of gigs each year, outside, no stage. I've been using the subs either side of the playing area with the top cabs on top of the subs.

From this I think the top cabs should be higher on separate stands, should the subs be at the side, next to each other (they can't go in the centre)

Outdoors is a challenge due to the lack of walls. Typically it takes twice as many subs to reach the same levels as indoors. Tops don't have that problem as being directional they don't use boundary loading. The subs don't need to be centered, off to the side is fine, but they still should be clustered unless the venue size is so large that they, and the tops, are spread by at least 14 meters or so.

[acidbass]

On 27/09/2022 at 12:08, AxelF said:

I see the RCF ART 7 series and the QSC K12.2s get a lot of mentions, with quite a few people using them as a backline option instead of a 'traditional' bass cab setup - does this mean they could potentially be used as a pair as FOH speakers and provide enough bottom end for the bass and kick without a sub? We run the bass and both guitars DI into the desk and mic the kick and snare/hats plus two overhead mics for the drums.

I use a pair of RCF 745A as our band PA - I generally high pass the bass and drums a bit, but no issues handling a full band including mic'd kit and two mic'd guitar amps for small to medium bar gigs (100 - 200 people)

[police squad]

1 hour ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

Outdoors is a challenge due to the lack of walls. Typically it takes twice as many subs to reach the same levels as indoors. Tops don't have that problem as being directional they don't use boundary loading. The subs don't need to be centered, off to the side is fine, but they still should be clustered unless the venue size is so large that they, and the tops, are spread by at least 14 meters or so.

thanks for the info. I will try it on the next band gig

[AxelF]

On 27/09/2022 at 23:40, Phil Starr said:

This could be read any number of ways, was this just you without the band playing bass through the PA? If so that would only tell you a little about your PA. It may have been down to room acoustics. An empty hall with no audience can be incredibly reverberant so this may or may not have been a fair test. I sympathise with your frustration though.

 

I know the Mackies and although they are more than matched by modern rivals they aren't bad sounding speakers. You ought to be able to get a pretty good sound out of them. Carlsbro though have a pretty poor reputation and they look like they are in far too small a box to be effective subs. They could be an issue. HPF on a bass at 70Hz is way too high. 

 

Another thought is that you haven't said how you set the relative levels on the subs and tops. The temptation is to set them to give a good thump rather than match the output. The idea is not that the bass is louder than the tops without subs but that it is at the same level but with the lower frequencies extended downwards in frequency and power handling of the whole system increased. At the crossover point the tops and subs should be at the same volume. Unless you have measuring equipment try playing a recording you know well through the PA and adjust the levels to make the bass sound as natural as possible at low/medium volumes. If you can't reproduce recorded music well then you are only going to find it difficult to impossible to create a good sound from the band.

 

Moving on to a possible speaker upgrade. Until recently we used QSC K12-2's for our PA. In typical pubs I could run bass through them at high enough levels to work well. These were providing all of the FOH sound but I had a little Hartke as an on-stage monitor. Since then our singer left and took her QSC's with her so I've recently bought a couple of RCF 745's They'll do most of our gigs including kick and bass at high volumes without needing subs or backline. I have subs but I've only taken them out once in three years. You just don't need them for the average British pub gig.

 

I'm not sure that answers your basic question, whether you need to buy new PA speakers. I think that is probably up to you but you ought to be able to get at least a reasonable sound out of what you have. If you decide to upgrade then I'd probably spend on some really capable tops and only add the subs if experience says you are struggling at more than one of your venues.

 

 

Thanks Phil that's really useful. I think a lot of the problem is that we very rarely get time for a proper sound check and then of course have limited feedback from non-playing friends and family of how the FoH bass sound is during the gig.

 

The testing I did at the weekend was just me without the guitars/drums so I was conscious of not aiming for a specific tone, I was more just looking for punch and impact (and other nebulous concepts..!) - it's far from a fair trial and I really need to get the whole band down with our kit somewhere, though it's like herding cats trying to round people up for a gig!

 

In terms of levels I was actually wondering if I'm running the tops too loud and over powering the subs, especially as I've been running only one - I'll stack them and use poles for the tops at the next gig and see if that improves things, plus play around with the volume settings on both.

 

I'm still toying with the idea of getting some better tops that could carry the whole lot at the sort of venues we play, the QSC K12.2s and the RCF 745 are the ones that I keep seeing come up with you and Acidbass having success with just the 745s. It sounds like you'd recommend the 745s over the K12s having used both? Have you ever used the 745s as a traditional bass backline at gigs where you're not in the PA? Realistically I'd have to shift my backline gear to buy the 745s, but as 99% of my gigs these days are with this band I'd much rather get that sounding great, especially if I could cover the other handful of gigs I dep for with one of the 745s as my bass rig.

[Jack]

I own and love a pair of QSC K12.2s and they are amazing as either main pa tops or for bass monitoring on stage. However, whilst I have used them as a full pa before without subs, I wouldn't be keen to do it again for a loud rock band. There's a big difference between a wedge sitting on the floor (so half space and with most of the low lows cut out anyway) for stage monitoring and relying on it to do everything to the audience.

 

There are mains that will do that. At one of our schools we have a pair of Yamaha 315s and the other school has a pair of QSC 153s, both of which will go all the way into sub territory no problem (as I'm told does the big boy RCF 15" model, the 745?) but they are very very big and very expensive. Probably less cost and weight than a tops+subs total rig though.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Even 2x15 mains don't get boundary loading when up on a pole, so what a 2x15 on a pole is capable of with lows a 1x15 on the floor next to a wall will do. The #1 mistake made by PA newbies is tops that at too large, subs that are too small, or non-existent. A pair of 1x10 tops and 2x15 subs is a well balanced system.

[Phil Starr]

10 hours ago, AxelF said:

in terms of levels I was actually wondering if I'm running the tops too loud and over powering the subs,

Without measuring gear I'd do the balancing of tops and subs with recorded music you know well. If you have good quality headphones then it's not a bad idea to compare the sound through the speakers with the headphone sound. you want your PA to be as flat as possible and then make choices about how the instruments balance. If your bass steps up or down at the crossover then it's going to give you a shelf in response. Thats going to make any instrument with a lot of bass content sound odd and mean applying conventional eq won't easily sort out the issues.

 

 

 

 

[Phil Starr]

10's with 15" subs are a fine combination and you don't need huge tops if you use subs. I've got 12's plus Subs which I'd use for outside gigs but the RCF 745's were my Swiss Army Knife purchase to be compact enough to do small gigs and with enough bass response that I could leave backline at home and have all the band using in ears for the gigs we do. The few times we play to more than 1-200 people we have always had a hired PA . Everyone is different but for our covers band, pub gigs with the occasional function 15" tops covers everything and lets us have a fully mixed sound without having to drag subs around and carry them into tiny spaces in 200 year old boozers. The really good tops worked out cheaper than small tops and subs so that was a bonus.

 

I've never used the 15's as a bass speaker though they sound good with bass at home (you have to try them  ) I also have a couple of RCF 310's and i have used them for bass, either as floor monitors or for small gigs just one as my bass 'rig'. They work fine but the problem is the floor reinforcement. On poles the bass sounds great but the extra bass reflected on the floor makes them very boomy and you have to roll the bass right off. I'd expect the same problem with the 15's as bass speakers but hey ho, you do have tone controls. We are moving using in-ears however and hope to lose the backline soon.

[AxelF]

Thanks again Phil (and everyone else!) for your help - it sounds like that's the way to go for us, 99% of my gigs are small to medium size pubs in central/east London with 'interesting' layouts and all with their unique challenges in terms of loading in and where to set up. We're also exclusively in ears so no need for back line. I'm just slightly nervous about parting with my traditional rig setup for the odd occasion where I'm depping for a band that needs me to bring amp/cab but as you say, if it proves to be too bassy in that situation I can hopefully HPF/eq my way round that.

Really appreciate everyone's expertise and help with this!

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, AxelF said:

I'm just slightly nervous about parting with my traditional rig setup for the odd occasion where I'm depping for a band that needs me to bring amp/cab but as you say, if it proves to be too bassy in that situation I can hopefully HPF/eq my way round that.

 

Most gigs I have full PA support - but every now and then, on those few occasions when there is no PA, I use one or two DXR10 mkII as backline.  And yes, exactly - just use your eq to get a good sound.  Indeed I find these type of powered speakers respond very intuitively to eq changes.