Dream bass multi f/x ... what would you want?

[SamIAm]

I've played with a few multi f/x units (HX Stomp, Some Zooms, Mod Dwarf) and found them OK.  I've not had the chance to try some of the super high end units like the Kemper or Cortex.

 

Most are out of my price range (I drooled over an HX Stomp XL for sale in the marketplace for nearly an hour before deciding I just could simply not afford to buy it ... buy it if you can it a great bit of kit!)

 

I had started down building the Effektlada but felt that it was ... well ... I did not want to abuse the Mod team.  Whilst their software is open source, it felt wrong to use it given their struggle to stay afloat.

 

I've nearly 30 years in IT and have reasonable electronics skills ... I've decided to build a multi-effects unit (MFX) myself.

 

Pros

It will do exactly what I want.

It will be very cost effective.

 

Cons

It's going to take a while!!  However, usinf an OSS approach I would hope that others would start to contribute to the range of capabilities; my skills/knowledge are limited .... but there are so many others out there with much more extensive skill/experience and once this gains momentum I would hope they would get involved.  The power of the OSS approach is almost limitless!

 

My bass playing abilities/experience are perhaps a 2/10 (I can groove a fair root/third/fifth on sight) but the subtlety of the effects, especially for us bass players are outside my experience.

 

I'm reaching out to ask what you would want in a MFX

 

I'm not enough of a rocket scientist to actually build effects plugins, but there are loads out there, I'm thinking about such factors as

• Display
• Number of footswitches
• In/Out connections
• Type of plugins supported (LV2/VST/etc)
• Form factor
• Anything else you can think of

 

 

It will be an open source system so you can make one yourself, tho I'm happy to build you one if electronics is not you thing!

 

S'manth xx

 

Edited October 12, 2022 by Smanth

[skidder652003]

 A noble preamp and a cali 76 compressor!

[BigRedX]

One of the things to consider if you are going for two tiers of footswitches would be to stagger them so that there is less chance of hitting one of the front switches whilst pressing one at the back. Have a look at the Roland FC100 Mk2 to see what I mean. For this very reason I don't use any of the top row of switches on my Helix whilst I'm actually playing and they are reserved for use between songs, which IMO reduces their effectiveness.

[Skybone]

Didn't @stewblack get someone to custom build a multi-fx pedal a while ago?

 

EDIT: Found it - Lunar Cluster

 

Surely, something like the Tech21 Bass Fly Rig v2 or the Valeton Dapper Bass would be a great reference point.

 

Personally, I really can't fault the Pod Go. Yes it's limited. No, I'm not using all of it's capabilities. Sounds great though.

Edited October 7, 2022 by Skybone

[stewblack]

The behemoth I commissioned was mainly distortions drives and boosts, Just a hugely expensive noise box really.

For me the ultimate multi effect would have at least 8 switches, assignable in any way I liked, parallel processing,  a good compressor, some great synth sounds, a clean boost separate from distortion and fuzz, a really bubbly watery auto wah, a pedal for manual wah, a phaser, a chorus and a flanger. It would be instantly responsive (no lag) and have external control via a smart phone or tablet. Be bluetooth compatible and with a proper DI out. Be as physically small as possible, rugged construction and a really simple user interface.

[pn_day]

Surely the dream bass multi-effect is just the next one that you buy, and then shortly thereafter sell on the marketplace here?
I'm looking at you @stewblack!

 

But yes - open source, build your own is a very nice idea. 

 

For me, decent preamp, compressor, tuner, some modulation, and then ideally some spare digital processing for future proofing/loading other processing. It's beginning to sound like the MOD Dwarf (or whatever that project was called). 

Phil

 

 

 

[Boodang]

Line 6, Zoom, Source Audio and a few others, have come and gone because of their interface. Either obscure, infuriating or just unsatisfying to use and consequently have ended up being sold. Knob twiddling!! A multi fx with knobs on please!

Edited October 7, 2022 by Boodang

[Boodang]

Also.... with few exceptions most pedal fx's i own sound better than the equivalent in a multi fx unit. I'd rather have fewer quality fx than a plethora of average ones.

[LukeFRC]

I think the first step in a successful project is laying out what it is you want to achieve.
Or what are you achieving that you couldn't do better another way? Are the effects pluggins you would be using any better/worse than a Zoom MS-60b or similar cheap MFX? 
What could you do that no-one else is doing, or doing well? 

Or is it an exercise in using your programming chops for something cool? I dunno, I'm skeptical of such an open brief.  

One of the cool projects/products I saw was the little Robbie pilot - essentially a pre programmed midi controller for HX stomp - but also really clever in that it made a complex bit of functionality really simple and allowed you to do things simply that previously were difficult. 

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, pn_day said:

Surely the dream bass multi-effect is just the next one that you buy, and then shortly thereafter sell on the marketplace here?
I'm looking at you @stewblack!

 

But yes - open source, build your own is a very nice idea. 

 

For me, decent preamp, compressor, tuner, some modulation, and then ideally some spare digital processing for future proofing/loading other processing. It's beginning to sound like the MOD Dwarf (or whatever that project was called). 

Phil

 

 

 

Mod devices built a good system, I hope to build an exceptional system! (Of course I might be deluded, but I do have the requisite skills)

 

S'manth xx

[JPJ]

For me, TC got it right with the Plethora pedal. I can have multiple effect boards each comprising of three effect slots (mine is the x3 which fits neatly on my board, and there is the bigger x5 if you need more slots). As many have noted the biggest drawback is the lack of a good bass overdrive or distortion but for me my always on SansAmp takes care of that. There is no preamp either (it is just a multi fx) but for my needs it is more that sufficient. 
For me, the key to any multi fx is the ease of use, both in terms of setup and use. I don’t want to learn a programming language or remember a list of foot tap sequences to access a good compressor, a bit of tasteful chorus, and a little bit of octave action. 

[Al Krow]

20 hours ago, Smanth said:

Mod devices built a good system, I hope to build an exceptional system! (Of course I might be deluded, but I do have the requisite skills)

 

S'manth xx

 

Hey S'manth - loving this project of yours. Another big mutifx fan here. In terms of interface - these guys seem to have raised the bar:

 

 

[Lozz196]

My ideal would be an Ashdown ABM600 in BC a preamp/DI pedal, lose the compression & sub-harmoniser, if possible add a tuner (tho not essential). Keep the 9-band eq & valve drive. 
 

@Ashdown Engineering, please humour me and make one!

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 19:24, LukeFRC said:

I think the first step in a successful project is laying out what it is you want to achieve.
Or what are you achieving that you couldn't do better another way? Are the effects pluggins you would be using any better/worse than a Zoom MS-60b or similar cheap MFX? 
What could you do that no-one else is doing, or doing well? 

Or is it an exercise in using your programming chops for something cool? I dunno, I'm skeptical of such an open brief.  

One of the cool projects/products I saw was the little Robbie pilot - essentially a pre programmed midi controller for HX stomp - but also really clever in that it made a complex bit of functionality really simple and allowed you to do things simply that previously were difficult. 

Luke, your POV is spot on.

 

I've played with Zooms, Mod devices, Line 6 units (Sadly none of the high end stuff, tho happy to if someone would loan me one! lol)

 

They all fall short (IMHO)

 

I feel a "dream mfx pedal" would:

 

• Not be be costly.  I aim to use easily available H/W and open source the software.  I'm doing this for love not dosh!  Let's spend out money on our basses etc!
• Seamless to gig with (Multi footswitches to either switch in/out settings, snapshots, presets/layouts) ... but able to integrate with state of the art  midi/ble/osc systems for those that want to, and the ability to configure via computer in advance of a gig ... best of both worlds I hope!
• As intuitive to use as a pedalboard made up of pyysical pedals, who the heck wants to have a degree in computer science to use it!?  Twist that know to get what you want, press that button to store it ... LISS!
• Robust (I feel that touchscreen is too vulnerable to the sort of things that happen at gigs, like pints of beer being dropped, feet being misplaced, etec, etc). Protected screens and twisty/pressy knobs ... I'm not sure it would survive a Hummer ... but you never know! lol
• Aimed at bass players ... most (if not all) of the MFX units do not really cater for us bass folks, we are an afterthought!
• Ability to use as many of the existing F/X plugins as possible.  I mean VST/LV2/Etc ... I am thinking to use Carla as the plugin host and it seems to deal with a wide range of plugins.

But ... these are my views and I really want to garner what the community would like to see to help shape things ... the brainstorming phase!

 

 

WHY am I doing this ... 

I love the bass and a great bmfx unit would be fab!

Mod devices is very a nice system, but it is impossible to setup new layouts without a computer and in my experience it has some nasty audio glitches, plus it only supports LV2 plugins

Line6 ... not aimed at us bass players and a rather closed proprietary system.

I cannot speak to the other high end stuff.

here

So my plan is to garner a set of desirements from the gang here on BC and look to incorporating them in the "MultiS'manth" (Better name to be determined!).

 

I aim to use OSS plugin hosts (I am handy with IT but not a rocket scientist!) but I expect this will cover most of what we BCer would find valuable.

 

To be fair, this is not a short term project (And any takers for getting involved would be very very welcome) but I think it will be a great thing for us!

 

S'manth x

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Smanth

[Geek99]

Battery power option ?

my zoom b2.1u has it and it is useful

 

and a built in tuner 

[Geek99]

15 minutes ago, Smanth said:

 

• .

 

So my plan is to garner a set of desirements from the gang her on BC and look to incorporating them in the "MultiS'mant" (Better name to be determined!).

I

Smantasaurus?  
 

Playful reference to Taurus pedals there 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Geek99

[MichaelDean]

This sounds really cool! Here's what I'd be looking for:

- 6 footswitches seems like a good number, with the option to set one as an instantaneous tuner/output mute and have plenty to play with. I hate that the tuners always need to share with tap tempo, or you have to long press it.

- The option for parallel processing.

- A stereo effects loop, with the ability to split the routing on the stereo jacks to mono so you can make into two that can be placed anywhere in the chain if needed.

- Expression pedal output. 

- I really like the idea of using VST/AUs as the signal processors - I'd like to be able to run some really big delays and reverbs and maybe more than one of each, so plenty of processing power please!

- The ability to sync the preset with a tempo, so all of the delays are matched up if I want. 

- Balanced jack and XLR out with independent level controls and the ability to leave an amp and cab SIM on for the XLR, but leave it off for the jack out.

- Audio in and headphone out might be good for practice and possibly receiving an in ear monitor mix.

[LukeFRC]

55 minutes ago, Smanth said:

I feel a "dream mfx pedal" would:

 

• Not be be costly.  I aim to use easily available H/W and open source the software.  I'm doing this for love not dosh!  Let's spend out money on our basses etc!
• Seamless to gig with (Multi footswitches to either switch in/out settings, snapshots, presets/layouts) ... but able to integrate with state of the art  midi/ble/osc systems for those that want to, and the ability to configure via computer in advance of a gig ... best of both worlds I hope!
• As intuitive to use as a pedalboard made up of pyysical pedals, who the heck wants to have a degree in computer science to use it!?  Twist that know to get what you want, press that button to store it ... LISS!
• Robust (I feel that touchscreen is too vulnerable to the sort of things that happen at gigs, like pints of beer being dropped, feet being misplaced, etec, etc). Protected screens and twisty/pressy knobs ... I'm not sure it would survive a Hummer ... but you never know! lol
• Aimed at bass players ... most (if not all) of the MFX units do not really cater for us bass folks, we are an afterthought!
• Ability to use as many of the existing F/X plugins as possible.  I mean VST/LV2/Etc ... I am hoping to Use Carla ar the plugin host and it seems to deal with a huger range!

ok... so reading that, apart from a bass focus and the existing plugins you're describing a HX stomp (the bigger one) or HX effects  
Plus they have the added investment in UX,  reliability and testing that they would have taken to get the product to the market... 

So the question for me would be: 

• What is the extra bass specific functionality that you could do? and
• What can these existing plugins do that existing guitar/bass multifx units can't? 

 

the answers to that probably start to define what the hardware looks like and how you might expect the user to use it - and then it's about making it easy for people isn't it? 

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 17:12, skidder652003 said:

 A noble preamp and a cali 76 compressor!

Added to list.

 

edit

 

Check out this rather cool video (In fact he has a lot of cool videos!)

 

The Neural DSP Quad Cortex comes in at a not so cool ballpark of £1,600, but the idea of "capturing" a sound (A bit like IRs do) is not unique and there are ... more cost effect ways of implementing this tech approach ... definitely a feature for the list!!!

 

S'manth x

Edited October 10, 2022 by Smanth

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 17:35, BigRedX said:

One of the things to consider if you are going for two tiers of footswitches would be to stagger them so that there is less chance of hitting one of the front switches whilst pressing one at the back. Have a look at the Roland FC100 Mk2 to see what I mean. For this very reason I don't use any of the top row of switches on my Helix whilst I'm actually playing and they are reserved for use between songs, which IMO reduces their effectiveness.

Great point.

The positioning of footswitches can make a huge difference.

Too close together - fail!

Too many - it weighs a ton!

Too few - not enough control when gigging.

 

I've built a multi-switch control unit before, Trampa, which was based on an open source project called Pedalino Mini.

It is an  amazing design, with the ability to add as many/few switches and seems to support almost every type of third party expression pedal out there!

If you scroll down the readme page you can see it's capabilities as well as a number of "I built one of these" photos from various users, which I found fascinating!

 

It has many pros but also some cons from my perspective (no easy USB MIDI, limited display capabilities, only configurable from a web interface) but I will be adapting a lot of similar features into my yet to be named MFX unit.

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 18:06, Skybone said:

Didn't @stewblack get someone to custom build a multi-fx pedal a while ago?

 

EDIT: Found it - Lunar Cluster

 

Surely, something like the Tech21 Bass Fly Rig v2 or the Valeton Dapper Bass would be a great reference point.

 

Personally, I really can't fault the Pod Go. Yes it's limited. No, I'm not using all of it's capabilities. Sounds great though.

Good shout, both of those units have some nice features.  Added to list!

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 18:12, stewblack said:

The behemoth I commissioned was mainly distortions drives and boosts, Just a hugely expensive noise box really.

For me the ultimate multi effect would have at least 8 switches, assignable in any way I liked, parallel processing,  a good compressor, some great synth sounds, a clean boost separate from distortion and fuzz, a really bubbly watery auto wah, a pedal for manual wah, a phaser, a chorus and a flanger. It would be instantly responsive (no lag) and have external control via a smart phone or tablet. Be bluetooth compatible and with a proper DI out. Be as physically small as possible, rugged construction and a really simple user interface.

Stew, your points are insightful and well made.

 

8 Switches is doable, some might want more or less, in two rows or a single row ... my unit (I must come up with a name for it!) will allow that.

Assignable in any way - for sure, the Mod Dwarf I played with seemed to have hit this nail on the head, you could 'almost' assign anything to do anything ... the only limit I noted was that I'd like to be able to have a switch/midi command/button on your bass (Oh yes, this is possible!) change one or two or multiple settings.  Another example is an expression pedal that could morph from one configuration to another (Volume up, wah down, fuzz from nowt to extreme ... all with one control pedal).

Parallel processing - For sure!  My Stomp seems to support two paths, the Mod dwarf seems to support as many as you want (But it has some limitations that I find too constraining). I'm aiming for a mullti-core "beating heart" of the unit, to allow for DSP upon DSP ... and the beauty of this open source approach is that in a year (or three) when something more capable is available, just upgrade it (Rather than the ... hey you can buy a whole new device for £££)

DI - Like it!

F/X - Not being a musical prodigy (nor a maths genius) I intend to rely on the plugins that are out there, but when you support (As I intend to) all the popular formats, there are literally thousands!  To be fair, a subset of these are aimed as bass and a smaller subset at decent, but ... I really like the approach taken by Quad Cortex Neural Capture and the Impulse Response approach, where you can capture the essence of something and model it.  There is tech that will do this that is not costly (For example the Corel ... a fairly cheap add on that can detect faces, cats, cars ... it surely can figure out some analogue pedal characteristics)

Small - it's a tradeoff ... to small means no room for display and switches, too big and you need a Mac trick to carry it about!  And this will vary from one player to another, but a solution will be found!

Lag - Totally agree!  The lag in switching "pedalboards" on the Dwarf was unacceptable to me, the Stomp not so much.  Basically my perspective is if I have to wait for a device to do what I ask it is a fail!

Rugged - Oh yes!  Resilient to drops, slips, trips, dropped pints, drummers (lol) ... IMHO this means a touchscreen display is out ... too fragile.

Simple UI - The most important point I feel, it could be capable of running the entire NASA space program ... but if it is not easy to configure in advance and even more so use when gigging ... it will be like a lead balloon!

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 18:20, pn_day said:

Surely the dream bass multi-effect is just the next one that you buy, and then shortly thereafter sell on the marketplace here?
I'm looking at you @stewblack!

 

But yes - open source, build your own is a very nice idea. 

 

For me, decent preamp, compressor, tuner, some modulation, and then ideally some spare digital processing for future proofing/loading other processing. It's beginning to sound like the MOD Dwarf (or whatever that project was called). 

Phil

 

 

 

LOL!!!  Poor @stewblack, (I do love him!)

 

Open Source (IMHO) means that whilst I might start the project, anyone can enhance it ... I'm fairly techie but have limited bass/audio experience, but there are many out there who do ... and they can add to the result!  Also, as it is not being built for profit (But just for love and perhaps the delight of seeing some folks actually using it!) it will be in the price point of more than some of the incredibly sexy units that are available (I'm looking at you Neural!)

 

I see the range of F/X falling into a number of camps:

• Those that are available already as various plugins for other F/X units or DAWs or even perhaps in other commercial units, some are free, some are paid for, some that currently run only on Windoze or MacOs.
• Those that some users write themselves, these can range from ... ahem ... heavyweight C++ or some such code to GUI based plugins developed using tools like Juce, Elementary, Pure Data, etc.
• There are a lot of users who just want to select the F/X ... probably need some sort of shared F/X site for this, with rankings etc ... not a huge issue!
• Some users will want to emulate the sounds of existing F/X and a IR/DSP sampling approach will work here.

"Unamed MFX" will  be able to do all of this (bit it will take time!)

 

S'manth x

[tauzero]

You need a fair bit of processor power - Odroid N2+ perhaps, which already has a decent DAC so would just need an ADC. Has a Pi-compatible 40-pin GPIO.

 

There appears to be a few VSTs available for Linux and JOST to run them. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert though.

 

Conventional and USB host MIDI - should be able to run softsynths (like MOD devices & MODEP).

[Elfrasho]

I could easily gig with one of those fly rigs, if the preamp was a bit more interesting than a samsamp style pre, and with a cab sim on the di out!