Dream bass multi f/x ... what would you want?

[SamIAm]

On 10/10/2022 at 17:06, tauzero said:

You need a fair bit of processor power - Odroid N2+ perhaps, which already has a decent DAC so would just need an ADC. Has a Pi-compatible 40-pin GPIO.

 

There appears to be a few VSTs available for Linux and JOST to run them. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert though.

 

Conventional and USB host MIDI - should be able to run softsynths (like MOD devices & MODEP).

The hardware I'm looking at from the get go is

https://wiki.radxa.com/Rock4/se

 

Why?

• Affordable
• Available (Pis are as hard as hens teeth to find at the moment!)
• Powerful
• I have one already!! lol

 

The 2+4 architecture should allow me to give a UI that is responsive without sacrificing the audio processing.

It also has a M.2 SSD storage capability to avoid any "fails" in SD cards!

 

It also has a Pi compatible 40 pin interface so I plan to use the powerful HiFiBerry HIFIBERRY DAC+ ADC PRO I with it's

• Dedicated 192kHz/24bit high-quality Burr-Brown DAC
• Dedicated 192kHz/24bit high-quality Burr-Brown ADC

 

Which I believe are up to most of the COTS units out there

 

I would like to run bare metal OS (For performance reasons)  but not sure I am up to that!  However a realtime linux with Jack should be OK.

 

S'manth x

 

 

S'manth x

 

 

Edited October 15, 2022 by Smanth

[stereoplayer]

I play fretless.

 

Always on for me is delay….a quick slapback.

 

I also use some chorus, phaser, flange, distortion and an envelope filter.

Edited October 14, 2022 by stereoplayer

[NancyJohnson]

Never had any desire for multi-effects...I mean, I've owned stuff but they never really did it for me.  I had a Fishman thing that was a riot, but totally unusable in a band context.

 

End of the day it's all about a gritty core tone, currently have two Tech21 things - dUg and a GED2112 DI.  They're all I need.

[Passinwind]

On 06/10/2022 at 02:12, Smanth said:

I'm reaching out to ask what you would want in a MFX

 

Cool! I want full control on a wireless or possibly wired connection from my bass. Anything living on the floor that requires me to bend over, ever, is out.

[SamIAm]

14 minutes ago, Passinwind said:

Cool! I want full control on a wireless or possibly wired connection from my bass. Anything living on the floor that requires me to bend over, ever, is out.

Just to check.

 

On desktop - knobs, buttons OK?

On floor - footswitches?

Either - WiFi, Ethernet, Bluetooth or MIDI to control from either a web browser (Custom apps are so 1990s), one of the several control surface apps or your DAW?

 

I am considering some small BLE based control buttons that could be mounted on a bass too.

 

S'manth xx

[Passinwind]

2 minutes ago, Smanth said:

Just to check.

 

On desktop - knobs, buttons OK?

On floor - footswitches?

Either - WiFi, Ethernet, Bluetooth or MIDI to control from either a web browser (Custom apps are so 1990s), one of the several control surface apps or your DAW?

 

I am considering some small BLE based control buttons that could be mounted on a bass too.

 

S'manth xx

No foot switches needed or wanted, do it on the bass with a simple keypad. Desktop unit, knobs and buttons fine as long as I can switch presets plus control the most important parameters such as volume, drive, and EFX blend right on the bass. No web, no DAW, no control surface unless it is on the bass. Not asking too much, right? 😎

[Baloney Balderdash]

One that would be capable of running standard VST effects, and multi parallel processing. 

[SamIAm]

On 08/10/2022 at 16:18, Al Krow said:

 

Hey S'manth - loving this project of yours. Another big mutifx fan here. In terms of interface - these guys seem to have raised the bar:

 

 

The Midium is v.sexy, but I feel it has one major downside.

A touchscreen!

 

Two reasons I feel this

1) Touchscreens are not robust enough (IMOH) for gigging, they are too 'delicate' for the rigors of being kicked about on stage

2) You need to bend over ... for studio work this is OK, but for gigging .. not so much.

 

I envision a unit that can be:

Controlled totally by footswitches and knobs to achieve the robustness

Controlled by a web browser so it has the super sexy touch/move/set ... but from a tablet/pc that is safely away from ones feet.

 

Thoughts? 

 

S'manth xx

 

 

[SamIAm]

On 09/10/2022 at 21:54, Geek99 said:

Battery power option ?

my zoom b2.1u has it and it is useful

 

and a built in tuner 

Battery power is a must have for me, I'm currently investigating how to utilize the USB PD technology so that a cost effective USB brick will power the bmfx for long enough (and also other things like wireless units and ... well everything on a pedalboard!)

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 19:00, Boodang said:

Also.... with few exceptions most pedal fx's i own sound better than the equivalent in a multi fx unit. I'd rather have fewer quality fx than a plethora of average ones.

Totally!

 

I aim to have a set of  high quality plugins rather than loads of so so f/x.

To be fair one persons meat is another's gristle, a website (planned ) with ratings is likely

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

On 07/10/2022 at 19:24, LukeFRC said:

I think the first step in a successful project is laying out what it is you want to achieve.
Or what are you achieving that you couldn't do better another way? Are the effects pluggins you would be using any better/worse than a Zoom MS-60b or similar cheap MFX? 
What could you do that no-one else is doing, or doing well? 

Or is it an exercise in using your programming chops for something cool? I dunno, I'm skeptical of such an open brief.  

One of the cool projects/products I saw was the little Robbie pilot - essentially a pre programmed midi controller for HX stomp - but also really clever in that it made a complex bit of functionality really simple and allowed you to do things simply that previously were difficult. 

Nods!

 

The initially open brief is to garner ideas ... brainstorm wise (I have some ideas but I'm a baby bass player and getting a view of what other more accomplished players would like is a good way to start, some ideas will be brilliant ... other not so much)

S'manth x

Edited October 15, 2022 by Smanth

[SamIAm]

On 09/10/2022 at 22:45, LukeFRC said:

ok... so reading that, apart from a bass focus and the existing plugins you're describing a HX stomp (the bigger one) or HX effects  
Plus they have the added investment in UX,  reliability and testing that they would have taken to get the product to the market... 

So the question for me would be: 

• What is the extra bass specific functionality that you could do? and
• What can these existing plugins do that existing guitar/bass multifx units can't? 

 

the answers to that probably start to define what the hardware looks like and how you might expect the user to use it - and then it's about making it easy for people isn't it? 

I am blessed to currently have an HX Stom XL, which is amazing!

Why the bmfx?

Cost

Some folks like to build thir own to enable their choice of layout, number of foot switches, size of display.

Also the Line 6 series (Whilst having a rather grand rnage of f/x) is a closed ecosystem.  THEY decide which units to model, the release cycle and do not leverage the vast range of VST/LV2/Etc range of F/X plugins that exist. And this does not take into account the technical feasible possibility of ... ahem ... using plugins from other systems, not a commercially viable scenario but for a FOSS system ... it can be done!

 

S'manth x 

 

[LukeFRC]

2 hours ago, Smanth said:

I am blessed to currently have an HX Stom XL, which is amazing!

Why the bmfx?

Cost

Some folks like to build thir own to enable their choice of layout, number of foot switches, size of display.

Also the Line 6 series (Whilst having a rather grand rnage of f/x) is a closed ecosystem.  THEY decide which units to model, the release cycle and do not leverage the vast range of VST/LV2/Etc range of F/X plugins that exist. And this does not take into account the technical feasible possibility of ... ahem ... using plugins from other systems, not a commercially viable scenario but for a FOSS system ... it can be done!

 

S'manth x 

 

I tell you what I think would be interesting… a single pedal to load a single plugin into. As in I think if you are looking for multi fx there are options - but something that lets you run *that* vst you want …

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, Smanth said:

The Midium is v.sexy, but I feel it has one major downside.

A touchscreen!

 

Two reasons I feel this

1) Touchscreens are not robust enough (IMOH) for gigging, they are too 'delicate' for the rigors of being kicked about on stage

2) You need to bend over ... for studio work this is OK, but for gigging .. not so much.

 

I envision a unit that can be:

Controlled totally by footswitches and knobs to achieve the robustness

Controlled by a web browser so it has the super sexy touch/move/set ... but from a tablet/pc that is safely away from ones feet.

 

Thoughts? 

 

S'manth xx

 

 

Hmmm... you make a very good point! Wonder what the Midium crew have to say in defence of touchscreens? A few of the more recent multfx have also gone in that direction. 

[jimbobothy]

2 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

I tell you what I think would be interesting… a single pedal to load a single plugin into. As in I think if you are looking for multi fx there are options - but something that lets you run *that* vst you want …

… kind of like a ‘Stem Cell’ pedal, load whatever you need VST wise into it for one gig, then something else for the next ha ha. 

[T-Bay]

As a confirmed pedal collector I could never imagine going to a multi FX set up. That was until I had a play with a Boss GX100. I am a total convert now and use it for everything. It is configurable to a ridiculous extent and the onboard sounds are superb. It is also controllable via Bluetooth or the onboard touchscreen as well as the usual buttons you would expect. The Bluetooth control saves your back but I have also used it live where a mate was able to tweak my sound while I was playing. They could even switch patches/ turn pedals on and off if you wanted that but I do that myself.

 

With any of this the key for me is always how it sounds and that is what surprised me most with the GX100. I would imagine the Helix is similar but at £500 the GX100 was worth a punt for me.

[SamIAm]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Hmmm... you make a very good point! Wonder what the Midium crew have to say in defence of touchscreens? A few of the more recent multfx have also gone in that direction. 

Fair point, I feel that the physical elements of a touchscreen are incompatible with the physical rigours a pedal needs, but that is just my view.

 

Thoughts from anyone?

 

S'manth x

[T-Bay]

52 minutes ago, Smanth said:

Fair point, I feel that the physical elements of a touchscreen are incompatible with the physical rigours a pedal needs, but that is just my view.

 

Thoughts from anyone?

 

S'manth x

I think that is why the one on the gx100 is quite small and there are several higher knobs around to protect it from wandering feet. But if you think about what the average phone goes through in a pocket/ handbag they are nowhere near as fragile as many people think. In addition on the GX100 all touchscreen functions can be carried out via other controls/ Bluetooth so if the touchscreen element stopped working the unit would still function.

[3below]

So many excellent ideas have been expressed so far   Not sure what is left to contribute on the ideas front.  Might have missed this, it should also have some form of headphones out amplification or bt headphone connection. 

[SamIAm]

On 10/10/2022 at 17:06, tauzero said:

You need a fair bit of processor power - Odroid N2+ perhaps, which already has a decent DAC so would just need an ADC. Has a Pi-compatible 40-pin GPIO.

 

There appears to be a few VSTs available for Linux and JOST to run them. I'm not going to pretend to be an expert though.

 

Conventional and USB host MIDI - should be able to run softsynths (like MOD devices & MODEP).

Very Interesting!

 

My plan is to do an initial build with a Rock 4 SE (Which also has a Pi compatible 40 pin GPIO)and a HIFIBERRY DAC+ ADC PRO mostly as I have one of each already ... a big plus point!

 

I did own an Odroid N2+ (I was running the Home Assistant system on it) but the USB ports died, which I gather is not uncommon  

 

The Odroid does seem to have more CPU power, but the Rock has integrated WiFi & Bluetooth, which I intend to use.

 

Having said that, the Mod Dwarf is quite capable in the f/x arena and only runs a quad core @ 1.3 GHz with 1Gb of RAM, it's lack of footswitches and inability to configure pedalboards on the unit itself took it off my list of potential devices.

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

14 hours ago, 3below said:

So many excellent ideas have been expressed so far   Not sure what is left to contribute on the ideas front.  Might have missed this, it should also have some form of headphones out amplification or bt headphone connection. 

Totally a headphone out is a must.

Bluetooth headphone, not sure about ... I've found that they have a latency that is too high,  perhaps this is not the case with high end devices tho.

 

S'manth x

[Al Krow]

Alongside the hardware, what makes for a great multifx is as much, if not more, the software and quality of the effects sims.

That for me is why Yamaha and Zoom have stolen a march on the competition at their respective price points with their Line6/Helix and Zoom multifx ranges and why, despite better hardware, some of the competition is struggling to match anything like their popularity. 

 

Many bassists, from what I've seen are keen to have something really usable "out of the box" and don't have the time or patience to be creating their own set of effects sims. (For some weird reason, they seem to be more interested in playing bass and making music, haha!) And, even if they do, then the easier the interface the better to allow for an easy "workflow". For me, Zoom have nailed this side of things, particularly when aided by free down to load patch editors such as ToneLib.

 

Do you know which other devices have "succeeded" using the OSS model from the outset, rather than having a base set of patches included in the tin?

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Alongside the hardware, what makes for a great multifx is as much, if not more, the software and quality of the effects sims.

That for me is why Yamaha and Zoom have stolen a march on the competition at their respective price points with their Line6/Helix and Zoom multifx ranges and why, despite better hardware, some of the competition is struggling to match anything like their popularity. 

 

Many bassists, from what I've seen are keen to have something really usable "out of the box" and don't have the time or patience to be creating their own set of effects sims. (For some weird reason, they seem to be more interested in playing bass and making music, haha!) And, even if they do, then the easier the interface the better to allow for an easy "workflow". For me, Zoom have nailed this side of things, particularly when aided by free down to load patch editors such as ToneLib.

 

Do you know which other devices have "succeeded" using the OSS model from the outset, rather than having a base set of patches included in the tin?

Nods nods nods!

 

I actually have been blessed to been able to obtain in an affordable way a HX Stomp XL (A bit large, but the space is needed for ther 8 switches ... which makes it giggable for me! Sounds are fab, tho bass side is not as strong. It is close to perfect for me **)

),my pedalboard is going to now be:

• HX Stomp XL - need to spend some (LOTS) to tweak the sounds away from the rather lame presets it comes with.
• Leveline Volume pedal
• Expline Expression pedal
• Line 6 Relay wireless system (TB516G+G75) which was gifted to me by a saint here on BC
• Battery Power - All of the units in my chain "can" be battery powered but, this is a wee challenge, I need both 9v and 5v at various amperages.  I'm in the process of designing 'adapters' to leverage one of the really affordable PD based USB power blocks to power this rig puppy, I might even be able to power the amp too!
• 

 

And I need to find a pedalboard to lug it all around with me.  My Pedaltrain Metro 16 survived the fire, but is too small.  I also really like those board setups that are like a flightcase, where you remove the thick padded lid and have a thin base with the pedals on it, a bit like this BOSS BCB-1000, but not so big (or expensive!!). I might end up making one myself.

 

 

 

** So, why am I still looking at a DIY BMFX

 

HX Stomp XL - I really like it but

• Their software release cycle is slow.
• No built in WiFi, Bluetooth (Specifically MIDI over BLE) or Ethernet connectivity (I want this to allow maximum flexibility for Phone/Tablet/Laptop remote control) - I also want to be able to produce some wee hand held motion sensing midi controllers or buttons on my bass to trigger some f/x generation (see next point too)
• No synths (as far as I've read, could be wrong). I do not mean Bass Synths, I mean "proper synths" like http://www.fluidsynth.org, 
• HX Edit is nice, but is a closed system and does not play well with Linux.
• Power draw is on the high side.
• No mini midi, just the old skool ports.
• Only two signal chains (As compared to the Mod dwarf which can have as many as you want, limited only by DSP power.)
• Only 8 f/x blocks and no way to upgrade it's engine when they release the next model.
• No support for non Helix f/x
• Display is a wee bit small for my eyes.

ZOOM Units (To be fair I only tried the MS-60B, B1On & B1Four) - Affordable! Run on batteries! F/X are fair for the price. Tonelib Zoom makes setting them up nice and easy ... but

• Only 4 or 5 F/X blocks
• Not sure ZOOM are doing an more work on them given their new range of products
• Ungiggible (for me) with one or two footswitches, I did start down the route of building a multi switch control unit that would have allowed me to chain a couple of the devices together and foot control them ... but then the HX Stomp came my way
• No support for non ZOOM F/X

 

Mod Dwarf - I quite quite like it, their mostly OSS ethos is fab!, the ability to assign most everything to a switch/midi/cv event is wonderful! Hass a huge range of MIDI F/X synths and even sequencer plugins... but

• Only 3 footswitches, so not giggable for me
• Their web pedalboard editor is very cool, but cumbersome, they really need to revisit their UX Design.
• No way to connect expression pedals (Well you can use their CC interface if you fancy building an arduino convertor, but their own brand pedal has been on the drawing board for, well on there forum people have been asking about when it will be shipped since 2017!)
• No way to configure a pedalboard (you can tweak individual pedals) without the web UI!!!
• Thy only support LV2 plugins (Of which there are many, but there are loads more that only come in other formats)
• I had a chance to play with one for a week or so and found that sometimes when switching effects on/off there was audio pop in the output.
• Switching from one pedalboard to another takes seconds (Tho this might be something that is only required between songs.
• I think their tech has amazing potential and being OSS this can be helped out by loads of geeks, in fact there are at least three DIY projects I can think of (Not including the one I started) that use their OSS software.  But (and I am no expert here and really hope I'm wrong!) the company recently collapsed and was saved only with the greatest of efforts, many of the original funders who chose to relieve financial pressures (I guess) decided to defer receipt of their units and now seem to being asked to contribute more money to get them, this despite the Dwarfs beuing distributed/sold via several retails chains!  I don't think I'm particularly cynical but this does not strike me as fair and I am also not sure how they will do things differently enough to make this recent round of rescue funding help the company (The new company that is) survive.  Too high a risk for my liking.

 

OK, but there are other MFX units out there so why build one yourself!?

• I think a unit combining the many strengths of the various units I've tried, but in a single device will be a killer and I want one!  I suspect that something like the Neural DSP might tick most of my boxes, but it is just way to expensive for me.  I reckon (ignoring the time I put into this project) that the cost of all the parts will run in the £150-£200 range and I already have many of them ... so it is not going to cost me much dosh.
• Perhaps naively or arrogantly, I think I can do better, nearly 30 years of IT covering a range of roles has left me with the necessary skills.  A lot of the system is being produced using OSS or COTS h/w and I hope that when it gains some traction others will come and join the OSS build gang.
• Using OSS means it can evolve at a pace.  Using cheap COTS H/W means it can be easily upgraded.
• I intend to incorporate some features that are very bass specific (Like high speed AI pitch to midi conversion for those ultra low notes we bash out at times)
• The challenge ... can I do it and will it be any good, only time (and feedback from testers) will tell!
• The satisfaction of gigging with a BMFX that "I made"!  I'm building my own bass, hope to build my own amp/cab combo at some point; it is a bit of a goal to be able to play with all S'manth made gear!
• It is a relaxing and creative way for me to get away from the intense environment where I work (NHS Intensive Care Nurse).
• The icing on the cake would be if others wanted to build one and I could see them used here and there in the pedalboards of others!

 

S'manth x

 

PS

Quote

 

Do you know which other devices have "succeeded" using the OSS model from the outset, rather than having a base set of patches included in the tin?

 

To be fair, using OSS there are hundreds of F/X plugins that generally come preinstalled, some are fab ... some not so much!

Mod came close, but I think their business model was the failure.

Check out these, which are not totally commercial but are popular

https://zynthian.org

https://www.treefallsound.com/wiki/doku.php?id=pi-stomp_core

https://blokas.io/ (Patchbox OS & MODEP are basically a Mod Dwarf on a Pi)

[SamIAm]

On 15/10/2022 at 12:28, T-Bay said:

I think that is why the one on the gx100 is quite small and there are several higher knobs around to protect it from wandering feet. But if you think about what the average phone goes through in a pocket/ handbag they are nowhere near as fragile as many people think. In addition on the GX100 all touchscreen functions can be carried out via other controls/ Bluetooth so if the touchscreen element stopped working the unit would still function.

I see your point, but the numbner of smartphones I've seen that have cracked screens is ...  high!

 

S'manth x

[T-Bay]

3 hours ago, Smanth said:

I see your point, but the numbner of smartphones I've seen that have cracked screens is ...  high!

 

S'manth x

How many multi fx screens have you seen broken? Being a touchscreen does not make it any more vulnerable. I cannot think of any multi fx floor set ups that don’t have a screen now, so the GX is just in line with the norm but with the advantage of touchscreen. The only way to avoid a screen is to use stand alone pedals or a seriously old unit. Even then they are at risk of damage - a chunky knob (no pun intended) is more likely to get a kick than a flat screen. Personally I have never had any damage to pedals at gigs.