Dream bass multi f/x ... what would you want?

[3below]

Stating the obvious, if a screen is incorporated into the design should be: readily available, sensible cost and easily replaced. With some judicious design decisions the control software could be written to accommodate a build with knobs and/or touch screen? It is a good programming challenge

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by 3below

[SamIAm]

16 minutes ago, 3below said:

Stating the obvious, if a screen is incorporated into the design should be: readily available, sensible cost and easily replaced. With some judicious design decisions the control software could be written to accommodate a build with knobs and/or touch screen? It is a good programming challenge

 

 

I feel a display is key.

I like the idea of a touchscreen, but inherently they are delicate so I am planning a Perspex protected non touch screen driven by knobs and foot switches… beer and drummer proof! Lol

S’manthx x

[3below]

Have you had any thoughts about where you will start from with the software? Do any OSS projects give a good starting point that can be forked or used as a library?  No point inventing the wheel again

[SamIAm]

14 hours ago, T-Bay said:

How many multi fx screens have you seen broken? Being a touchscreen does not make it any more vulnerable. I cannot think of any multi fx floor set ups that don’t have a screen now, so the GX is just in line with the norm but with the advantage of touchscreen. The only way to avoid a screen is to use stand alone pedals or a seriously old unit. Even then they are at risk of damage - a chunky knob (no pun intended) is more likely to get a kick than a flat screen. Personally I have never had any damage to pedals at gigs.

I must admit to having seen none!  Smartphones galore with cracks, but never a MFX unit.

My experience here is weak, but I would suggest that the extrapolation of the technology of touch screen MFX would lead them to be more vulnerable. 

 

However, your insight has given me pause for thought!

 

S'manth x

[3below]

A lot of ground has been covered in the thread so far, I am just running through the "well what would it look like, how will I use it at a gig" scenario.  Apols if this is superfluous and has been covered.  Undoubtedly there are key items missing in this first iteration, it is a seriously good challenge.

 

• Main unit (on my amp or table/stand/whatever, not on the floor = no bending down, less vulnerable, stays nice looking longer, I can see what is going on without a telescope)
• Main unit effects / configuration can be edited / assigned / routed / display what is going on using a web browser (implies webserver in main unit)
• Touchscreen on main unit accessing the webserver 
• Webserver is also  accessible through wifi, BT, Ethernet (implies DHCP server or assignable IP/Subnet, plus DNS, SSH, 2FA?)
• N knobs on the main unit for quick adjustments e.g Vol, bass , treble - these will be parameter assignable through the webserver, so it could be modulation, drive, whatever I want (the touchscreen will show what they are doing)
• Footswitch with n switches, (some users might want 3, others 12 - implies a modular software architecture) and LEDs, floor based.  wifi / Bt / ethernet / usb / single wire connection(s)  to the main unit.  The footswitch unit is built to indestructible standard.  It will probably require a low power microcontroller, it is however only routing and communicating simple selection data.
• Analogue signal input to main unit is  XLR and HiZ jack  (pad will be available for high output instruments, Z will be high enough for direct piezo connections)
• Mute button / touch pad hot spot
• Simple 3 colour LED to show input signal level - instant quick check rather than having to access menus when changing instruments
• Analogue signal output from main unit is XLR, Jack, Line Out, headphones
• Digital output is USB and optical.
• Midi i/o
• Inbuilt Tuner? or tuner out jack

 

Expression pedal ?? wifi/bt/ethernet/single wire to main unit? to footswitch?

 

@Smanth  I have not mentioned midi in any detail due to my total lack of knowledge about it, I am sure you can fill that gap in.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2022 by 3below

[SamIAm]

21 hours ago, 3below said:

Have you had any thoughts about where you will start from with the software? Do any OSS projects give a good starting point that can be forked or used as a library?  No point inventing the wheel again

I've given this a lot of thought!

I want to support the range of arm based SBCs.

I aim to use as much OSS as is possible

OS wise I'm leaning towards Arch (which can be configured to be as lightweight as possible)

ALSA and JACK seem almost no brainers.

I'm leaning towards Carla as a audio host as it seems to support the widest range of plugin technologies available, tho I need to ensure that it will run on ARM Arch linux.

UI wise I aim to ensure that the BMFX (Gotta come up with a better name!) will allow full tweaking from knobs/foot switches when gigging, but also allow easy config via a web based UI.

 

My research is ongoing but I hope to have a workable prototype in the next wee while, details will be shared in my build diary.

 

The goal is to build a unit that is intuitive to knob twitchers but also to midi/osc gangsters.  We shall see if this is possible!

 

S'manth xx

[SumOne]

The best thing with digital multi fx is the convenience and cost effectiveness and versatility. But the best thing about individual analogue pedals is they are foolproof: click the switch to turn the effect on/off and the light goes on/off, glance at it and you can instantly see where the controls are set and can turn the dials if you want to change them, and 90% of the time I only need the basics (Tuner, EQ, Compression, Drive, DI) but not many multi-fx do them all or do them as well as individual pedals.

 

I find that most multi-fx fall down on the foolproof factor so after owning three different Helix multi-fx and two Zoom multi-fx units I am now back to individual pedals. It is too easy to have a hidden effect/EQ/IR etc. lurking in the background without knowing it and doing a simple thing like turning on a chorus can be a minefield of menu diving and footswitch/preset asigning. 

 

So my preferance for a multi-fx is one that has individual footswitches for each effect and each with their settings clearly on display at all times. The TC Plethora seems the closest to that, but the effect setting displays seem tiny and for the cost I'd also want it to do all of the basics as well as the more exotic effects.  

Edited October 19, 2022 by SumOne

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, SumOne said:

The best thing with digital multi fx is the convenience and cost effectiveness and versatility. But the best thing about individual analogue pedals is they are foolproof: click the switch to turn the effect on/off and the a light goes on/off, look at the controls to see where the parameters are set and turn the dials if you want to change them and 90% of the time I only need the basics (Tuner, EQ, Compression, Drive, DI) but not many multi-fx do them all or do them as well as individual pedals.

 

I find that most multi-fx fall down on the foolproof factor so after owning three different Helix multi-fx and two Zoom multi-fx units I am now back to individual pedals. It's too easy to have a hidden effect/EQ/IR etc. lurking in the background without knowing it and doing a simple thing like turning on a chorus can be a minefield of menu diving and footswitch/preset asigning. 

 

So my preferance for a multi-fx is one that has individual footswitches for each effect and each with their settings clearly on display at all times. The TC Plethora seems the closest to that, but the parameter displays seem tiny and for the cost I'd also want it to do all of the basics as well as the more exotic effects.  

KISS (I'm not being forward here ... Keep It Sweet & Simple)

I've not used multi single pedals, but I hear your experience and it will be taken on board!

 

A unit that is as easy to setup/gig with as dedicated physical pedals ... totally possible !!

 

S'manth xx

[SamIAm]

You have got to be joking!  Can anything be worth this!?!?

 

S'manth x

[Chienmortbb]

30 minutes ago, Smanth said:

You have got to be joking!  Can anything be worth this!?!?

 

S'manth x

No,

[Passinwind]

53 minutes ago, Smanth said:

You have got to be joking!  Can anything be worth this!?!?

 

S'manth x

 

I know people who have a whole lot more than that invested in pedalboards, so I guess it just depends! 

[LukeFRC]

Just saw this …

https://www.moogmusic.com/products/moogerfooger-effects-plug-ins

 

is that the kinda plug-ins you’re thinking of being able to host? 

[Passinwind]

On 15/10/2022 at 03:32, Smanth said:

Fair point, I feel that the physical elements of a touchscreen are incompatible with the physical rigours a pedal needs, but that is just my view.

 

Thoughts from anyone?

 

S'manth x

Carrying a phone or Pad to gigs would have been an instant deal breaker for me (phone always stayed in the van), but I could have lived with using my iPad for programming at home.

 

Love the open source aspect of this BTW.  I've been doing open source hardware for musicians for several years now and find it a very fulfilling diversion in my retirement years.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Passinwind

[SamIAm]

1 hour ago, Passinwind said:

Carrying a phone or Pad to gigs would have been an instant deal breaker for me (phone always stayed in the van), but I could have lived with using my iPad for programming at home.

 

Love the open source aspect of this BTW.  I've been doing open source hardware for musicians for several years now and find it a very fulfilling diversion in my retiremet years.

Yes, being able to control using a phone/tablet is (IMHO) a powerful capability ... but having to do so is not.  I believe that Proteus must be able to act as totally stand alone unit that can be configured/run without the need for anything else (except perhaps power and a bass lol)

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

9 hours ago, LukeFRC said:

Just saw this …

https://www.moogmusic.com/products/moogerfooger-effects-plug-ins

 

is that the kinda plug-ins you’re thinking of being able to host? 

 

That looks fantastic!

 

And yes, I would aim to be able to host it.  Proteus will be linux based, and the MoogerFooger states it is available for Windows and macOS in AUv2, VST3, or AAX formats ... however I believe there are ways available to bridge this to Linux, we shall see!

 

S'manth x

[3below]

3 hours ago, Smanth said:

 

That looks fantastic!

 

And yes, I would aim to be able to host it.  Proteus will be linux based, and the MoogerFooger states it is available for Windows and macOS in AUv2, VST3, or AAX formats ... however I believe there are ways available to bridge this to Linux, we shall see!

 

S'manth x

 

A quick search indicates Carla can support Windows native plugins.  To do this requires Wine.  LinVST and Yabridge offer direct linux support of Windows plugins.  Disclaimer here - I have not tried these, I just use Linux for 99% of my computing needs.

[jimfist]

On 19/10/2022 at 14:24, Smanth said:

You have got to be joking!  Can anything be worth this!?!?

 

S'manth x

 

 

The allure of the Quad Cortex is that you can make profiles of your own amps and dirt pedals, much like the Kemper Profiling Amp.

These also have a broad community that shares the captures of their amps/dirt pedals, which adds to the appeal.

This is all-for-naught if these digital profiles don't sound authentic...but evidently they sound very good when profiles are captured properly.

Tens if thousands of dollars worth of your valuable gear stays at home while a single device allows you to virtually bring them to your gig at a fraction of the cost, size, weight, etc.

 

If you haven't done so yet, I'd suggest you spend some time looking at the Fractal Audio AxeFxIII (rack) and FM9 (pedal) to see what they currently offer.

Throw in the Line 6 Helix as well. These represent the state of the art for effects, amp and cab modeling. These are expensive products, but very widely used these days.

 

I like the idea of an dream multi-fx rig that can run plug-ins, and dabbled with this many years ago with a laptop running Guitar Rig 3 with its companion control pedal audio I/O.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get latency down to a manageable number, so I scrapped the idea.

I'm sure this is less of an issue due to modern cpu processing speeds, but in the end, overall round-trip latency has to be +/-4msec in order for it to compete with hardware multi-fx.

Edited October 21, 2022 by jimfist

[Passinwind]

9 hours ago, Smanth said:

Yes, being able to control using a phone/tablet is (IMHO) a powerful capability ... but having to do so is not.  I believe that Proteus must be able to act as totally stand alone unit that can be configured/run without the need for anything else (except perhaps power and a bass lol)

 

S'manth x

Cool, looking forward to seeing how this progresses! I've been toying with the idea of making some DSP based DIY widgets for a while now but I already spend far too much time in front of a computer screen and also have a lot of new analog projects to finish up or get to anyway. 😉

[SamIAm]

45 minutes ago, Passinwind said:

Cool, looking forward to seeing how this progresses! I've been toying with the idea of making some DSP based DIY widgets for a while now but I already spend far too much time in front of a computer screen and also have a lot of new analog projects to finish up or get to anyway. 😉

Analogue is the past!

Digital is the now, future (IMHO)

 

It's like LP vs CD

 

S'manth x

[SamIAm]

3 hours ago, jimfist said:

 

The allure of the Quad Cortex is that you can make profiles of your own amps and dirt pedals, much like the Kemper Profiling Amp.

These also have a broad community that shares the captures of their amps/dirt pedals, which adds to the appeal.

This is all-for-naught if these digital profiles don't sound authentic...but evidently they sound very good when profiles are captured properly.

Tens if thousands of dollars worth of your valuable gear stays at home while a single device allows you to virtually bring them to your gig at a fraction of the cost, size, weight, etc.

 

If you haven't done so yet, I'd suggest you spend some time looking at the Fractal Audio AxeFxIII (rack) and FM9 (pedal) to see what they currently offer.

Throw in the Line 6 Helix as well. These represent the state of the art for effects, amp and cab modeling. These are expensive products, but very widely used these days.

 

I like the idea of an dream multi-fx rig that can run plug-ins, and dabbled with this many years ago with a laptop running Guitar Rig 3 with its companion control pedal audio I/O.

Unfortunately, I couldn't get latency down to a manageable number, so I scrapped the idea.

I'm sure this is less of an issue due to modern cpu processing speeds, but in the end, overall round-trip latency has to be +/-4msec in order for it to compete with hardware multi-fx.

Latency can be a HUGE issue!

I aim to use a RT linux kernal to minimise this!

 

Of course only time (and sound tastes) will show if this is the case or not!

 

S'manth x

[Passinwind]

16 minutes ago, Smanth said:

Analogue is the past!

Digital is the now, future (IMHO)

 

It's like LP vs CD

 

S'manth x

The near future just might be unamplified acoustic instruments around the campfire, just sayin'. But I'm not at all fussed on one delivery method over another, just want to hear great original music played by humans who actually really mean it! And I greatly respect all those who help make that happen, in whatever fashion. 😉

 

 

[Al Krow]

14 hours ago, Smanth said:

Analogue is the past!

Digital is the now, future (IMHO)

It's like LP vs CD

S'manth x

CDs to be overtaken by LP sales in 2022 as the vinyl revival continues | Labels | Music Week

Trouble is we humans and the universe we're in are analogue creatures not digital. 

Doesn't mean a lot of BC'ers, including me, are not super excited about what you're doing here though S'manth!

 

14 hours ago, Passinwind said:

The near future just might be unamplified acoustic instruments around the campfire, just sayin'. But I'm not at all fussed on one delivery method over another, just want to hear great original music played by humans who actually really mean it! And I greatly respect all those who help make that happen, in whatever fashion. 😉

Amen to that!

[PunkPonyPrincess]

22 hours ago, jimfist said:

 

The allure of the Quad Cortex is that you can make profiles of your own amps and dirt pedals, much like the Kemper Profiling Amp.

These also have a broad community that shares the captures of their amps/dirt pedals, which adds to the appeal.

…

Tens if thousands of dollars worth of your valuable gear stays at home while a single device allows you to virtually bring them to your gig at a fraction of the cost, size, weight, etc.

…

…I like the idea of an dream multi-fx rig that can run plug-ins.

A few things added up to made it attractive to me was when I was looking to update, enhance and rebuild my pedalboard (I do the bass-into-punk-guitar thing for my two piece drums/bass punk “trio”) when I costed all the pedals required to achieve, it soon approached Quad Cortex money.

Plusses:  have four independent instrument inputs (for sharing among others) plus two Mic Pres. Plus the looper (for laying down a background riff) is good and simple and replaced a Looper.  Its also a very good USB C sound interface so I could sell off the UAD Arrow audio interface which made it pretty much a lot cheaper than the cost of a Quad Cortex in the footprint of a Macbook Air and very very light.

Biggest plus is I don’t really gig with amps and cabs anymore; stereo DI/Outs means I go into the PA, all setlist levels ready, in go the mics, in goes the bass tune up in the pedal, no amp lugging. Amps @ home — a couple of lightweight cubes — still too heavy for me to want to pay extra luggage fees.

Edited October 22, 2022 by PunkPonyPrincess

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, PunkPonyPrincess said:

A few things added up to made it attractive to me was when I was looking to update, enhance and rebuild my pedalboard (I do the bass-into-punk-guitar thing for my two piece drums/bass punk “trio”) when I costed all the pedals required to achieve, it soon approached Quad Cortex money.

Plusses:  have four independent instrument inputs (for sharing among others) plus two Mic Pres. Plus the looper (for laying down a background riff) is good and simple and replaced a Looper.  Its also a very good USB C sound interface so I could sell off the UAD Arrow audio interface which made it pretty much a lot cheaper than the cost of a Quad Cortex in the footprint of a Macbook Air and very very light.

Biggest plus is I don’t really gig with amps and cabs anymore; stereo DI/Outs means I go into the PA, all setlist levels ready, in go the mics, in goes the bass tune up in the pedal, no amp lugging. Amps @ home — a couple of lightweight cubes — still too heavy for me to want to pay extra luggage fees.

So glad someone else snapped up your Hotone Ampero II. I was sorely tempted by that!

[Al Krow]

My pedalboard currently has a cheap and cheerful Zoom B1-4 multifx, as the centrepiece which provides a ton of useful fx that I may want to use only once in a while depending on the set, together with some "always on" features. I've got a second standalone B1-4 that, when I want travel light, slips into my gig bag and provides me with a very usable standalone tuner and pedal board. 

 

FWIW my main pedal board basically then has bespoke pedals that the multifx struggles with - and in fact quite a lot of multifx's struggle with - namely tight tracking / non glitchy octave down and a decent filter and synth, plus a Tech 21 VTDI at the end to give me additional tone shaping on the fly plus a DI out. If you manage to get quality filter and synth sounds from your multifx and its price competitive with something like the HX Stomp, I suspect there's going to be a long queue beating a path to your door! 

Edited October 22, 2022 by Al Krow