Fender up to their tricks again?

[jacko]

6 hours ago, Nicko said:

I think the bigger issue is how have Fender, who were started on the basis of producing instruments in a cheap and innovative way, managed to promote themselves as a high end maker while having innovated almost nothing since the 50s.  They maintain a premium price by continually moving the lowest end product to a cheaper location, and rebranding the previous base model at a higher price.

 

I am not anti Fender, but we should be honest about what they are actually producing.  Fender is the Ford of musical instruments - and we shouldn't think about paying Ferrari money for them

500 quid for a bass is more like Kia money. I'd be expecting a Fodera or Alembic for Ferrari money

[Ralf1e]

15 hours ago, MrCrane said:

Does that mean that they're good for metal?

No it means they smooth the wrinkles out of your shirts while you play em 😉

[Oomo]

17 hours ago, Nicko said:

I think the bigger issue is how have Fender, who were started on the basis of producing instruments in a cheap and innovative way, managed to promote themselves as a high end maker while having innovated almost nothing since the 50s.  They maintain a premium price by continually moving the lowest end product to a cheaper location, and rebranding the previous base model at a higher price.

 

I am not anti Fender, but we should be honest about what they are actually producing.  Fender is the Ford of musical instruments - and we shouldn't think about paying Ferrari money for them

To me they're similar to Apple phones after Steve Jobs passed away. What they produce is fine, and they'll keep churning out similar things each year with minor tweaks, lots of marketing, but no real new vision or innovation.

[Nicko]

38 minutes ago, Oomo said:

To me they're similar to Apple phones after Steve Jobs passed away. What they produce is fine, and they'll keep churning out similar things each year with minor tweaks, lots of marketing, but no real new vision or innovation.

They would be more like Apple if you could only play one through a Fender amp used a different jack lead to everyone else and you couldn't tune a Fender to any other make of instrument.

Edited October 14, 2022 by Nicko

[MrCrane]

1 hour ago, Nicko said:

They would be more like Apple if...you couldn't tune a Fender to any other make of instrument.

Apple make banjos?

Edited October 14, 2022 by MrCrane

[Grimalkin]

The primary function of corporate business is to increase profits and market share.

 

That's it.

[T-Bay]

2 hours ago, Oomo said:

To me they're similar to Apple phones after Steve Jobs passed away. What they produce is fine, and they'll keep churning out similar things each year with minor tweaks, lots of marketing, but no real new vision or innovation.

Or is it that all those small improvements, whilst not immediately obvious, make a big difference over time? I indulged myself with a Fender Ultra Jazz for my 50th and it is the best sounding bass I have ever had bar none.

[Oomo]

1 hour ago, T-Bay said:

Or is it that all those small improvements, whilst not immediately obvious, make a big difference over time? I indulged myself with a Fender Ultra Jazz for my 50th and it is the best sounding bass I have ever had bar none.

That's also probably true For the record I'm still after a Fender jazz (as soon as I find the right one...), I'm probably mostly put off by their marketing spiel more than actual experience with their latest bass models.

[asingardenof]

1 hour ago, T-Bay said:

Or is it that all those small improvements, whilst not immediately obvious, make a big difference over time? I indulged myself with a Fender Ultra Jazz for my 50th and it is the best sounding bass I have ever had bar none.

I'll be honest, as I approach 50 getting a "proper" Fender becomes more appealing, and the Ultra range is definitely on the list.

[nekomatic]

5 hours ago, Oomo said:

To me they're similar to Apple phones after Steve Jobs passed away. What they produce is fine, and they'll keep churning out similar things each year with minor tweaks, lots of marketing, but no real new vision or innovation.

Derail but… that would be all the iPhones from the 5s (being generous and assuming Jobs’s influence took a year or two to wear off) to the 14? Are you sure?

[chris_b]

23 hours ago, Nicko said:

. . . .  Fender, who were started on the basis of producing instruments in a cheap and innovative way,

 

 

Innovative, yes. Cheap, no.

 

There was very little that was cheap about Fender in the early days. In 1969 my Fender Precision, the only version they made, cost me £1600 in today's money, and a Jazz was about £1800.

 

Cheap guitars had very little to recommend them until the advent of CNC machines. That was the point when cheap didn't have to mean cr@p.

 

Edit

PS I've just had a look at a Fender catalogue and all the prices were in guineas. . . that makes the Precision about £1700 and the Jazz  just under £1900.

Edited October 14, 2022 by chris_b

[Oomo]

19 minutes ago, nekomatic said:

Derail but… that would be all the iPhones from the 5s (being generous and assuming Jobs’s influence took a year or two to wear off) to the 14? Are you sure?

Well maybe I'm being a bit unfair. I'm just going by some friends that upgrade their iPhone pretty much every single time a new model is available, and they all look pretty much the same to me. I guess they get a bit faster and cameras get better, but I've never seen anything that looked massively different from the previous model.

 

Though maybe there's not that much innovation left in phones...

[asingardenof]

15 minutes ago, chris_b said:

PS I've just had a look at a Fender catalogue and all the prices were in guineas. . . that makes the Precision about £1700 and the Jazz  just under £1900.

Guineas? Great Scott!

[3below]

As per @chris_b I have just looked up what the new P bass I bought in 1977 would cost in today's money -  £1,964. Unbelievable that I bought it as a student!  Seems like Fender are better value for money now compared to what they were.

[BigRedX]

31 minutes ago, chris_b said:

 

Innovative, yes. Cheap, no.

 

There was very little that was cheap about Fender in the early days. In 1969 my Fender Precision, the only version they made, cost me £1600 in today's money, and a Jazz was about £1800.

 

Cheap guitars had very little to recommend them until the advent of CNC machines. That was the point when cheap didn't have to mean cr@p.

 

Edit

PS I've just had a look at a Fender catalogue and all the prices were in guineas. . . that makes the Precision about £1700 and the Jazz  just under £1900.

 

I always thought that part of Fender's USP was that they were less expensive than their main US-based competition - Gibson (and to a certain extent Rickenbacker). That was certainly my perception of them in the early to mid 70s.

[Nicko]

33 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Innovative, yes. Cheap, no.

 

I meant the method of production was cheap.  The sales price of the instrument is dependant on the market, not the production cost.

[leschirons]

5 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

The primary function of corporate business is to increase profits and market share.

 

That's it.

Yes, and I suppose we're not being forced to buy them after all. I get there's different levels of construction quality and different configurations but I've often picked up a £200 Squier that plays better than a £1300 USA.  Once they're set up to your preference, how different can they be?

 

I saw another this morning called a "different universe" Strat.  How long's that been around?

[nilorius]

4 minutes ago, leschirons said:

Yes, and I suppose we're not being forced to buy them after all. I get there's different levels of construction quality and different configurations but I've often picked up a £200 Squier that plays better than a £1300 USA.  Once they're set up to your preference, how different can they be?

 

I saw another this morning called a "different universe" Strat.  How long's that been around?

200 Squire better than 1300 USA - it is just your dreams to be the way you hope.

[leschirons]

5 hours ago, T-Bay said:

Or is it that all those small improvements, whilst not immediately obvious, make a big difference over time? I indulged myself with a Fender Ultra Jazz for my 50th and it is the best sounding bass I have ever had bar none.

So then does that make a 63 Strat or Jazz bass worth thousands purely for the rarity value? Because all those small improvements and technological advancements that we now talk of should mean an old instrument plays like crap compared to a modern one but apparently, they don't 😂

Edited October 14, 2022 by leschirons

[leschirons]

2 minutes ago, nilorius said:

200 Squire better than 1300 USA - it is just your dreams to be the way you hope.

I'm sure I'm not the only one either. If an instrument plays better, or sounds better, it is what it is, better.

[nilorius]

9 minutes ago, leschirons said:

I'm sure I'm not the only one either. If an instrument plays better, or sounds better, it is what it is, better.

Sounds like You live in Matrix.

[3below]

1 hour ago, nilorius said:

200 Squire better than 1300 USA - it is just your dreams to be the way you hope.

 

55 minutes ago, leschirons said:

I'm sure I'm not the only one either. If an instrument plays better, or sounds better, it is what it is, better.

 

In my own personal possession universe are a 1980s USA standard strat and USA standard tele.  Both are good, the build quality of the tele particularly so, the strat is light and really vibrant.  I also have a knockabout Yamaha pacifica 012.    Every time I play the Yamaha I  realise how close it is to the USA Fenders for sound, playability and build quality.  There is not a lot in it (I did change the machines on the Yamaha to Grovers).  

Edited October 14, 2022 by 3below

[martthebass]

On 13/10/2022 at 12:49, leschirons said:

And, they all cost £162.

Nope. I bought a 57 P bass the first month they came out. The rrp was £202 if I recall correctly.

[leschirons]

1 hour ago, martthebass said:

Nope. I bought a 57 P bass the first month they came out. The rrp was £202 if I recall correctly.

Same here but the black 62 Strat. £162 brand new.

 

Thought the basses were the same price too but I was a guitarist then so maybe I was mistaken.

[Ralf1e]

10 hours ago, 3below said:

 

 

In my own personal possession universe are a 1980s USA standard strat and USA standard tele.  Both are good, the build quality of the tele particularly so, the strat is light and really vibrant.  I also have a knockabout Yamaha pacifica 012.    Every time I play the Yamaha I  realise how close it is to the USA Fenders for sound, playability and build quality.  There is not a lot in it (I did change the machines on the Yamaha to Grovers).  

No different to putting better quality tyres on your brand new car.

Anyway you make a very nice point there. Snob value and fashion does not make a product better. It's advertising and endorsements that make a product better.  Surely we all know that. 😉