Things that musicians do that are a waste of time!

[Bilbo]

I was reading the thread from the guy that wants to learn Bakithi Kumalo's line on 'You Can Call Me Al' and noted a few people said it was something they had learned/wanted to learn. Having a perverse sense of perspective, my immediate thought was 'why'?

We all do it. There is a list of bass lines that seem to be essential learning for bass players; 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', 'Teen Town', 'Amazing Grace' by Wooten, that thing by Stu Hamm - you know the stuff I am talking about. It's all over YouTube.

So we all go learn it and what? We only ever play it to impress people who aren't musicians (if it looks harder than it is) or to impress other musicians (if it is harder than it looks). We waste hours of study time learning a chunk of Stanley Clarke, or a wodge of Les Claypool, a modicum of Mark King or a pinch of Jaco or Flea. We should be studying music not musicians licks. These are just party tricks not core skills.

I think its probably fair to say that the kids that don't do these things and focus on the core knowledge are probably going to be better that those that can execute the party pieces but can't really play music.

For the record, I haven't learned Kumalo's line but did do Teen Town, Berlin's 'Bach' solo, 5G, Motherlode etc and a couple of bits of Stu Hamm! I am as bad as anytime in this area of wastage but urge developing players not to waste time on juggling and 'play the damn music' Listen to the grooves and don't worry about the fills; they're not important!

Jeff Berlin is my guru - just don't make me listen to him playing!

[bremen]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='467447' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:50 PM']I was reading the thread from the guy that wants to learn Bakithi Kumalo's line on 'You Can Call Me Al' and noted a few people said it was something they had learned/wanted to learn. Having a perverse sense of perspective, my immediate thought was 'why'?

We all do it. There is a list of bass lines that seem to be essential learning for bass players; 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', 'Teen Town', 'Amazing Grace' by Wooten, that thing by Stu Hamm - you know the stuff I am talking about. It's all over YouTube.

So we all go learn it and what? We only ever play it to impress people who aren't musicians (if it looks harder than it is) or to impress other musicians (if it is harder than it looks). We waste hours of study time learning a chunk of Stanley Clarke, or a wodge of Les Claypool, a modicum of Mark King or a pinch of Jaco or Flea. We should be studying music not musicians licks. These are just party tricks not core skills.

I think its probably fair to say that the kids that don't do these things and focus on the core knowledge are probably going to be better that those that can execute the party pieces but can't really play music.

For the record, I haven't learned Kumalo's line but did do Teen Town, Berlin's 'Bach' solo, 5G, Motherlode etc and a couple of bits of Stu Hamm! I am as bad as anytime in this area of wastage but urge developing players not to waste time on juggling and 'play the damn music' Listen to the grooves and don't worry about the fills; they're not important!

Jeff Berlin is my guru - just don't make me listen to him playing! [/quote]

I can't even play Smoke On The Water. How cool am I!

[Kiwi]

I wanna do Bach's Prelude for Cello like John Patitucci. I started to learn it but the stretches are so huge on a 6 string bass that I'm probably never going to play it with the smoothness of a cellist...or Patitucci for that matter.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='Crazykiwi' post='467473' date='Apr 20 2009, 02:18 PM']I wanna do Bach's Prelude for Cello like John Patitucci. I started to learn it but the stretches are so huge on a 6 string bass that I'm probably never going to play it with the smoothness of a cellist.[/quote]

You can do it on a 4. I did - as do most cello players

And I never played it again - complete waste of time!!!!!

Actually, its not but why that one. WHy not one of the other Bach pieces. Or some other composer? We all do the same ones!!

Baaa, baaaa. baaaaaaa

[The Funk]

I want to learn Graham Central Station's [i]Hair[/i] because I want to play it live, but that's a bass groove and a vocal part. There's nothing wrong with learning these things if you're going to use them live - and if people aren't going to be bored sh*tless watching/listening.

EDIT: Some of the things you've mentioned are the fun ear candy that make the bass seem cool. No harm in having a bit of fun. I don't think most players waste nearly as much time on these things as some of the people on youtube seem to.

Edited April 20, 2009 by The Funk

[alexclaber]

Although nowadays I hardly spend any time on learning fancy things I've done a bit of that in my past and wonder if I would write the same basslines now if I hadn't got my fingers and brain around that crazier stuff?

Hair is on my shortlist to learn to play and sing - will have to persuade the band that it's well known enough to be worth covering. The other one on my list is Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick - that suits our vibe, is well known but it's a little bit tricky even before I start singing...

Alex

[Josh]

I tried learning most of the "Essential" bass songs, I gave up half way through most of them because it was more irksome than it was fun and I noticed that if I carried on being infatuated with the one player I would no doubt turn into that which I disdain the most, and that's a clone.

Truth is, there are going to be plenty more bassists who will sit and learn trick after trick after trick until their blue in the face and are 30+ and playing Level 42 for a hobby, but at least the videos/recordings are there to also help players, sometimes all a player needs is to just see one video of someones creativity to start exploring their own. Also, the videos will also help music become more interesting to some players as well, some guys won't ever be interested in the mechanics behind it and some will want to have sheet music between their ladies legs, I aim for the middle.

[AM1]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='467447' date='Apr 20 2009, 01:50 PM']I was reading the thread from the guy that wants to learn Bakithi Kumalo's line on 'You Can Call Me Al' and noted a few people said it was something they had learned/wanted to learn. Having a perverse sense of perspective, my immediate thought was 'why'?

We all do it. There is a list of bass lines that seem to be essential learning for bass players; 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', 'Teen Town', 'Amazing Grace' by Wooten, that thing by Stu Hamm - you know the stuff I am talking about. It's all over YouTube.

I think its probably fair to say that the kids that don't do these things and focus on the core knowledge are probably going to be better that those that can execute the party pieces but can't really play music.

For the record, I haven't learned Kumalo's line but did do Teen Town, Berlin's 'Bach' solo, 5G, Motherlode etc and a couple of bits of Stu Hamm! I am as bad as anytime in this area of wastage but urge developing players not to waste time on juggling and 'play the damn music' Listen to the grooves and don't worry about the fills; they're not important![/quote]

I couldn't agree more.

I started out by learning a few basslines and quickly concluded that this as a learning style is not really conducive to player development.

I've dumped learning other people's basslines and now spend hours writing/developing my own basslines and learning theory/technique stuff.

It takes a lot of discipline to step away from learning basslines, there are countless basslines I would love to sit down and learn. But what will I really gain in terms of musicianship?

Now and again I jam along to music to break up the boredom of theory, but ultimately doing proper music study is my weapon of choice.

Anyone can be a bassline jukebox if they put the hours in, but being an actual bass player is a different proposition.

All in my humble opinion.

[YouMa]

Guilty,But i cant stop doing it.

[Mikey D]

In the past I "wasted" many an hour learning basically all the pieces mentioned above and more. To this day I still remember a few, but only really play Hair when I get on someones fretted bass because I love the groove and "U can't hold no groove" when a non musician friend asks me to play slap bass. Only having a fretless with a ramp stops this naughty habit...

But there were benefits gained such as improved left and right hand technique including string skipping, a not bad slap technique for when it's required, good string dampening...although most of these would have been learnt playing anything I suppose.

The main downside I see of when I learnt those pieces was the amount of times I would play them/work on them instead of pushing myself and learning something new. I still fall into that trap occasionally playing the same exercises when I know I have them nailed convincing myself I need to keep them under my fingers, but when I could be working on new things.

In hindsight, I wish I had spent that time transcribing and learning/applying the things I've finally got round to looking at (in the scheme of things) recently (melodic minor harmony, jazz improvisation, time, tone, walking lines) generally, musicianship.

[AM1]

[quote name='Josh' post='467650' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:23 PM']I tried learning most of the "Essential" bass songs, I gave up half way through most of them because it was more irksome than it was fun and I noticed that if I carried on being infatuated with the one player I would no doubt turn into that which I disdain the most, and that's a clone.[/quote]

Amen to that. If you focus too hard on learning certain people's basslines, you constrain the development of your own style. I like to see a bass player with a distinct bass playing "personality".

[quote name='Josh' post='467650' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:23 PM']Truth is, there are going to be plenty more bassists who will sit and learn trick after trick after trick until their blue in the face and are 30+ and playing Level 42 for a hobby,[/quote]

Good example. There's plenty of these guys around and whilst they tend to be technically good, there's no feeling whatsoever in their playing.

Anyone can learn to become a "technician" by playing someone else's basslines in the same style. But a vast majority of players have not developed "musicianship" i.e. phrasing, feel, groove.

A player with fantastic phrasing beats a "technican" hands down, every time.

[Josh]

[quote]I started out by learning a few basslines and quickly concluded that this as a learning style is not really conducive to player development.[/quote]

Everyone learns differently, if I had to sit down with a book of sheet music to learn a new song every time I would've thrown in the towel ages ago.

[quote]I've dumped learning other people's basslines and now spend hours writing/developing my own basslines and learning theory/technique stuff.[/quote]

If their being put to regular use other than home practice I fail to see the use.

[quote]It takes a lot of discipline to step away from learning basslines, there are countless basslines I would love to sit down and learn. But what will I really gain in terms of musicianship?[/quote]

You will gain insight into how certain modes/scales work, phrasing, your ear will improve vastly (Mine sure has), you'll develop a knack for melody and harmony. Basically mostly everything that's in the basic of theory books, but the example is far more entertaining .

[quote]Anyone can be a bassline jukebox if they put the hours in, but being an actual bass player is a different proposition.[/quote]

That's a bit harsh, so really any bassist who is happy playing covers isn't an "Actual" bass player? Regardless of wether the person is aware of the mechanics or not.

Edited April 20, 2009 by Josh

[SteveO]

I disagree. I think it is important to play these tunes. I think it is important to play as many of other people's tunes as possible in order to connect with your instrument, whatever that may be. Learning all the thoery is all well and good, and running up and down scales arpegios and all the other excersises to train muscle memory is just as important, but I also think it is important to learn how other composers have managed to create *that* feeling or emotion in that musical context. You can sit down with the score and study it, you can listen to as many influences as you care to, but I am convinced that the best way to learn this is to play it.

I learnt music on the trumpet. I learnt all the big tunes that everyone plays (Haydn, Purcell, etc) as well as many others that hardly anyone plays. Over time (putting modesty aside) I became very proficient in playing the trumpet, to the point where I could 'feel' what was happening musicaly. Later I started to learn music theory in depth and quickly came to realise that I knew most of it, just not the names or the reasons why such and such notes worked in that particular context. Now that I write music semi-profesionaly I generate all my melodies by mentaly playing the trumpet. Then i'll work out what the notes are and get them down on paper. I just can't do this on the Bass or Piano (yet) and whilst I can do it the other way round (work out what notes I need to generate the required emotion) it takes much much longer and I loose that creative spark by thinking too much about it. The point is that I connected with the trumpet through playing vast amounts of music over the years and I firmly believe that If I hadn't done it that way then I wouldn't be as good as I am.

Of course this is all IMO etc, but I'd be supprised if you could name One famous musician who learnt their instrument through only playing their own music, (and scales etc).

Comming right back to the OP (bet you'd thought I'd forgotten hadn't you ) why not play the 'Top 10 tunes that everyone learns'? They're usually the best examples of the craft and they're all well known so you know what feelings you are trying to recreate before you start, which makes it easiser to learn. OK, so you're not going to play them for others (unless you [u]want[/u] to be like the stereotypical guitarist who can execute millions of fast widdling solo's but can't come up with one original riff), but it is far far from being a waste of time.

Just don't keep playing the same stuff. Learn it, play it, move on, learn more, play more, move on.... otherwise you'll fall into the trap of not learning anything. Choose pieces that are going to push you. More importantly, don't JUST learn to play these. Jam with friends. Play jazz if you can stomach it (the ultimate jam) Write your own music. Do the millions of other things you need to do to learn your chosen instrument. There are some things you can drop (you don't need to learn how to slap if you don't want to) but learning other peoples music is not one of them.

[AM1]

[quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']I disagree. I think it is important to play these tunes. I think it is important to play as many of other people's tunes as possible in order to connect with your instrument, whatever that may be. Learning all the thoery is all well and good, and running up and down scales arpegios and all the other excersises to train muscle memory is just as important, but I also think it is important to learn how other composers have managed to create *that* feeling or emotion in that musical context. You can sit down with the score and study it, you can listen to as many influences as you care to, but I am convinced that the best way to learn this is to play it.[/quote]

I don't disagree with learning other music, but it should not be the focus of learning.

[quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']I learnt music on the trumpet. I learnt all the big tunes that everyone plays (Haydn, Purcell, etc) as well as many others that hardly anyone plays. Over time (putting modesty aside) I became very proficient in playing the trumpet, to the point where I could 'feel' what was happening musicaly. Later I started to learn music theory in depth and quickly came to realise that I knew most of it, just not the names or the reasons why such and such notes worked in that particular context. Now that I write music semi-profesionaly I generate all my melodies by mentaly playing the trumpet. Then i'll work out what the notes are and get them down on paper. I just can't do this on the Bass or Piano (yet) and whilst I can do it the other way round (work out what notes I need to generate the required emotion) it takes much much longer and I loose that creative spark by thinking too much about it. The point is that I connected with the trumpet through playing vast amounts of music over the years and I firmly believe that If I hadn't done it that way then I wouldn't be as good as I am.[/quote]

Bass is not my first instrument. I've served my time, in spades, spending years learning other people's music. Playing the bass has given me an insight I wish I had years ago, that musicianship (for me) is not about other people's music and definitely not about only being to play off dots. Everyone's musical background is different.

[quote name='SteveO' post='467692' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:59 PM']Of course this is all IMO etc, but I'd be supprised if you could name One famous musician who learnt their instrument through only playing their own music, (and scales etc).[/quote]

Ha. Ha ha ha ha. Think about this some more!

My point was, playing exclusively only other people's music can be constraining.

[AM1]

[quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']Everyone learns differently, if I had to sit down with a book of sheet music to learn a new song every time I would've thrown in the towel ages ago.[/quote]

I was commenting about the learning style that is specifically working for me. Everyone has a different background. I didn't suggest sitting down with music to learn a new song. I suggested that learning theory develops you as a musician. For example, learning intervals, scales, modes, arpeggios etc makes it easier to start recognising musical "patterns". I think listening and analysing music written by other people can be a much more valuable tool than spending hours trying to play certain pieces of music.

[quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']If their being put to regular use other than home practice I fail to see the use.[/quote]

Well yeah, they were written for my band and get played live. Just spending a few months writing and developing basslines along with drum patterns has done much more for my musicianship than pissing about learning other people's basslines. I do jam occasionally but I know where to draw the line and recognise that it's essentially wasted time that I can be using to develop musicianship.

[quote name='Josh' post='467687' date='Apr 20 2009, 05:56 PM']You will gain insight into how certain modes/scales work, phrasing, your ear will improve vastly (Mine sure has), you'll develop a knack for melody and harmony. Basically mostly everything that's in the basic of theory books, but the example is far more entertaining [/quote]

I've spent years playing other people's music and if I could back, I would change it. I think music teachers steering students down the path of learning primarily other people's music is a travesty.

In context - no one is saying don't ever learn other people's music. But it should NOT constitute the primary focus of musical development, certainly not to the point where it replaces learning any theory. Balance is good.

[Josh]

[quote]Good example. There's plenty of these guys around and whilst they tend to be technically good, there's no feeling whatsoever in their playing.[/quote]

They have feeling, but it's not their own, they've devoted ridiculous amounts of time to buying the exact bass and amp and playing that persons fills, basically everything that makes that player a hit out of the park, but one persons nuances can not be replicated into another persons original playing repertoire without making it blindingly obvious. It takes creativity and time to fully create your own voice.

[quote]Anyone can learn to become a "technician" by playing someone else's basslines in the same style.[/quote]

And a good amount of the time players will stumble across the mechanics behind it, so then they gain a rough understanding of whats going on. Even in my own playing I'm coming with things I'm not 100% has made them sound good or where is the next best "Theoretical" placement for me to go and the reasons behind and the options it brings, if someone enjoys what I'm doing and I'm being asked to play for different people then I can't see the point in worrying over the theory too much.

[quote]A player with fantastic phrasing beats a "technican" hands down, every time.[/quote]

And the ones I've seen with great phrasing and feel have all been players who are not exactly 100% on their theory, or hardly 50%.

[BigBeefChief]

I spend too much time masturbating.

[Josh]

[quote]I was commenting about the learning style that is specifically working for me. Everyone has a different background. I didn't suggest sitting down with music to learn a new song. I suggested that learning theory develops you as a musician. For example, learning intervals, scales, modes, arpeggios etc makes it easier to start recognising musical "patterns". I think listening and analysing music written by other people can be a much more valuable tool than spending hours trying to play certain pieces of music.[/quote]

It's always going to be split down the middle on this one really, I'm aware of enough theory that when I hear it and understand whats going on, I smile.

[quote]I think music teachers steering students down the path of learning primarily other people's music is a travesty.[/quote]

Well if they didn't there wouldn't much of an appeal to learning bass. Listening to other peoples music has helped so many other musicians it's beyond comprehension, the greatest composers played each others music down throughout the ages and created their own genius from it. If teachers didn't encourage open mindedness when it comes to music, we'd all be theoretical robots, or worse, Jeff Berlin.

[quote]Balance is good.[/quote]

I fancy a bowl myself thinking about it .

Edited April 20, 2009 by Josh

[SteveO]

[quote name='AM1' post='467701' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:11 PM']Bass is not my first instrument. I've served my time, in spades, spending years learning other people's music. Playing the bass has given me an insight I wish I had years ago, that musicianship (for me) is not about other people's music and definitely not about only being to play off dots. Everyone's musical background is different.[/quote]
I find it stange that you (and bilbo, and quite a few others) state that you learnt to play other peoples music, yet can't see that that has helped you to become the musician that you are. OK, you've done the legwork and you don't need to do the same again on the bass, but you are using that same musicianship when writing lines on the bass that you learnt beforehand. If someone were to stand up and say that they were proficient in any instrument, yet never learnt to play anything that wasn't their own then I would be very impressed (although I would be thinking BS)

[quote name='AM1' post='467701' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:11 PM']Ha. Ha ha ha ha. Think about this some more![/quote]
Ah, I think you mean that just regurgitating music does not allow for creativity and that if you only ever learn other peoples music you will only be able to play other peoples music. Yes, I agree with that 100%, but that wasn't the point I was making. The point is that you can't learn to be a musician without being aware of other music, and the best way of learning about other music is to play it.


[quote name='AM1' post='467701' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:11 PM']I don't disagree with learning other music, but it should not be the focus of learning... [snip]... My point was, playing exclusively only other people's music can be constraining.[/quote]
Oh absolutely, again I agree with you there. I just think that being black and white about it all is wrong. The statement "Just playing other peoples music is bad" is certainly true, but that doesn't mean that we can draw the conclusion that "Not playing other peoples music is good"

[AM1]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='467718' date='Apr 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I spend too much time masturbating.[/quote]

I guess that makes you a w*nker!

[thisnameistaken]

I gave up bothering to learn "chops" that I'd never have a use for years ago, but yeah I did do Teen Town and other such guff. Spent a couple of days working out an Andrews Sisters-ey "Mr Sandman" with tapping and harmonics once, sounded ace, didn't really teach me anything.

[Golchen]

I don't see the problem personally. They are entertaining pieces, people love to hear them, you will most probably improve your chops and you can throw bits into your regular playing.

I haven't learned any of that stuff. I'd love to but I'm crap with TAB and I don't have the skills (yet?). If I could play Country music by Stu Hamm or Bach by Berlin then I'll die happy!

To me this just harks back to the 'secret' bassists golden rule: Thou shall not showboat, even if it's entertaining and people love it, for thou hath a job to do.

[SteveO]

[quote name='Golchen' post='467794' date='Apr 20 2009, 08:57 PM']...The 'secret' bassists golden rule: Thou shall not showboat, even if it's entertaining and people love it, for thou hath a job to do.[/quote]

That is so crying out to be used as a sig. Off to the quotes thread with you.

[BigBeefChief]

[quote name='AM1' post='467756' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:15 PM']I guess that makes you a w*nker! [/quote]


The biggest on here.

[The Funk]

[quote name='BigBeefChief' post='467718' date='Apr 20 2009, 06:28 PM']I spend too much time masturbating.[/quote]

[quote name='AM1' post='467756' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:15 PM']I guess that makes you a w*nker! [/quote]

Someone told me the psychiatric definition of "too much" is 30 times per day. I think Golchen's pretty much got the bass definition down.

[quote name='Golchen' post='467794' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:57 PM']To me this just harks back to the 'secret' bassists golden rule: Thou shall not showboat, even if it's entertaining and people love it, for thou hath a job to do.[/quote]

I have mixed feelings about this rule. As musicians, we're in the entertainment business and whatever we do should be entertaining. The reason a lot of these tunes are pointless live is that they're not entertaining to anyone other than a few bass players in the room - and if the player's overall musicality isn't developed enough for the tune or if the few bass players in the room have heard it enough already, it's not going to be entertaining to anyone.