You get what you pay for

[OldGit]

[quote name='4000' post='467766' date='Apr 20 2009, 07:25 PM']Horses for courses really. I've always hated the older Peavey bass gear; the Black Widow is arguably my least favourite speaker that I've ever used (had one for about 2 years and hated every second of it, but I generally like a very papery-sounding speaker). I love Trace though, and would be happy to use it now if my back could cope.[/quote]

My Mileage Varies, indeed.
I've always liked 15's and Black Widows specifically, in the bargain bin department anyway, and Trace and Ashdown just don't do it for me.
I probably could do with a lesson in how to get a decent sound out of trace heads as they seem to be the de facto gear for jams around here ..

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='467857' date='Apr 20 2009, 09:15 PM']I don't mean the bass so much as the amplification. Bad playing doesn't come into it when even playing an open string doesn't produce a big broad grin. No matter how I alter the EQ on the amp, I can't get any of my basses to sound remotely like this

[attachment=24158:The_Running_Free.mp3][/quote]

That's a nice bass sound and I know exactly how to get it. Front pickup only, tone knob rolled back a bit depending on how new your strings are, when it kicks into the straight eighths shift you plucking hand backwards to get more growl. No EQ needed, just a cab that's running clean and is fairly uncoloured. And most importantly - guitarists that have turned down their lows and low mids just like on the recording which frees you up a nice big space in the low midrange.

Alex

[peted]

[quote name='neepheid' post='467741' date='Apr 20 2009, 06:54 PM']Not quite £100, but I picked up a half functional Hartke 3500 head for 140 notes. Once I got the valve preamp working (burned out resistor in the power rectification stage for the valve) I've been delighted with it.

It does happen.[/quote]
+1

I bought my Hartke 3500 about 5 years ago second hand (paid FAR too much for it as it was from Cash Converters and I hadn't done my homework - my own fault). Punches well above its price bracket and should be snapped up if you're after an amp on a budget.

It has quite a good modular 'upgrade' path too, as you can replace the pre-amp valve for a Groove Tubes Mullard for about £20. I've also put an Aphex Bass Xciter before the input and it makes the sound huge (about £80). You'll then be left with an amp which really doesn't deserve to sound as good as it does.

The amp is really best suited for live use and cuts through the band with minimum of effort (I have the master volume at around 2 or 3 out of 10). I wouldn't use it for practice at home as mine has quite a lot of fan noise and it just doesn't do quiet very well

[chris_b]

My idea of good gear is great gear hardly used and second hand!
For a great amp you should be thinking around £400 - £500 and there have been some great, but heavy, cabs come up starting at around £300. You should be able to get good cab(s) for about £400 each, but 1 should do it.
You could get Ampeg or Eden gear at the lower (heavier) end and the more expensive stuff on my list would include Aguilar, Epifani and Bergantino. Sadly there aren't any used Barefaced cabs on the market yet!! If you are near Coventry, scare your bank manager by going over to see Mark at Bass Direct.

[51m0n]

Well I can get a useable sound out of nearly anything at a given volume, within the range of the device in question.

The issue I have with cheap gear is that it tends to fail more often (cheaper components), it doesnt go as loud without distorting/misbehaving/sounding less good, it is heavy, it wont take as much abuse, it wont last as long. Oh and in fact it almost always doesn't sound quite as good.

Its taken me years to be able to get the gear I have and I love it, it sounds phenomenal, way better than cheap kit at the same volume. And it will last and last (if it doesnt you'll hear about it!)

Having said all that my last purchase was a second hand Squire fretless VMJ, and it sings; just recorded with it this weekend, and its totally brilliant, love it to bits, sounds really woody, mwaahs on the top two strings really easily, but the setup makes the E and A sound a little less obviously fretless until you dig in or slide - perfect! £150 Bargain!

EQ is overrated for getting a bass sound IMO. There I've said it, now everyone will flame me. I don't care. IME the true timbre of the sound is more defined by pickup blend than anything else. Yes you can add bass to a bridge pickup tone, and it will be as bassy as a neck pickup tone, but they still sound different, and vice versa.

Couple this with where you choose to pluck the strings (just taking into account pickups as possible places) and you have four very distinct tones, now add how stiff the fingertip is as you pluck (just consider stiff as vs not at all stiff) and you have 8, then we have how hard you actually pluck (imagine there is either soft or hard) thats 16, but of course there are an infinite variety of graduations between each of these variables. Now thats just fingerstyle!

I can EQ til I'm blue in the face and I wont change any of those sounds to one of the others, I just change the frequency plot to get closer - there is a huge amount more to timbre than that frequency plot! Envelope, odd versus even harmonics, balance of fundamental to harmonics, amount of string and fret noise etc etc

You cannot eq these things in really.

I know Alex will understand where I'm coming from!

You don't have to spend what I have to get a very very nice rig (my son has a brilliant rig which cost sell under half as much), but quality is quality, it does sound better, it usually functions better too.

[casapete]

I'm always amazed by the price of PA mixer amps compared to bass amps.
PA amps -6 ,maybe 8 channels with full tone controls,maybe 2 graphic eq's,digital effects,2x300 watts output etc etc,yet costing same or even less
than bass amp head- 1 maybe 2 channels,1 graphic eq,no fx,1x300 watt output - you get the idea. Is this just economy of scale or what?

A while ago I had to use an old Peavey XR600 PA amp into my bass cab, and it sounded bloomin marvellous! Loud as hell, great tone too!
Think I remember a well known jazz/blues guitar player using similar set up too - clean and loud, thats whats needed.
So if you see a bargain PA head anywhere, bag it for a spare bass amp,and you may be impressed.

Edited April 21, 2009 by casapete

[OldGit]

[quote name='casapete' post='468577' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:37 PM']I'm always amazed by the price of PA mixer amps compared to bass amps.
PA amps -6 ,maybe 8 channels with full tone controls,maybe 2 graphic eq's,digital effects,2x300 watts output etc etc,yet costing same or even less
than bass amp head- 1 maybe 2 channels,1 graphic eq,no fx,1x300 watt output - you get the idea. Is this just economy of scale or what?

A while ago I had to use an old Peavey XR600 PA amp into my bass cab, and it sounded bloomin marvellous! Loud as hell, great tone too!
Think I remember a well known jazz/blues guitar player using similar set up too - clean and loud, thats whats needed.
So if you see a bargain PA head anywhere, bag it for a spare bass amp,and you may be impressed.[/quote]


Yup

I've used an old HH Pa head into a 1x15 in a former life. Sounds fine and only about 3 knobs to worry about.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='467698' date='Apr 20 2009, 06:04 PM']I'd be interested to hear from anyone who is absolutely blown away with the £100 bargain they picked up on eBay.[/quote]

The only thing ive found that i had to spend good money on was cabs. I needed something small but powerful and the Schroeders were the only things i could get hold of.
Other than that i think i would be happy with anything as long as it fits the bill.

[bumnote]

£170 for an acoustic 220 head and 406 2x15 [eminence] cabinet

Sounds Great, pleanty loud enough for what I want it to do

[51m0n]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='468650' date='Apr 21 2009, 03:33 PM']The only thing ive found that i had to spend good money on was cabs. I needed something small but powerful and the Schroeders were the only things i could get hold of.
Other than that i think i would be happy with anything as long as it fits the bill.[/quote]


Makes total sense, distortion from an amp working within its spec is orders of magnitude less than distortion from a cab, so you can get away with worse quality.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' post='468700' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:13 PM']Makes total sense, distortion from an amp working within its spec is orders of magnitude less than distortion from a cab, so you can get away with worse quality.[/quote]

Yeah, and as the cab is at the end of the chain it makes sense to try and make sure the £1000's you have spent on the rest on the chain actually gets through without sounding like its one of those learner kits from Argos.

[51m0n]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='468704' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:18 PM']Yeah, and as the cab is at the end of the chain it makes sense to try and make sure the £1000's you have spent on the rest on the chain actually gets through without sounding like its one of those learner kits from Argos.[/quote]

Where it can perfectly reproduce the sound of you rubbish fx pedals, crud interconnects, dodgy leads, rubbish amp, and badly shielded POS bass, with an unplayable action and a filthy pots???

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' post='468710' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:20 PM']Where it can perfectly reproduce the sound of you rubbish fx pedals, crud interconnects, dodgy leads, rubbish amp, and badly shielded POS bass, with an unplayable action and a filthy pots???

[/quote]

Nah, im not in an indie band ;-)

[JohnSlade07]

I've never got a really great sound out of any of the gear I've used, however, it's always been functional and (largely) reliable. Frankly as long as the people watching my band are having a good time then I'm happy. If I'm playing well (in my own admitedly modest way) that's also a bonus. I could obsesses about my gear but noone in the audience will care or notice the chances are and neither will my bandmates I suspect.

I currently play a Yamaha BB414 through a Hartke Kickback 12 into the band PA. The sound varies from gig to gig anyway and as we have to set up within the hour on average I haven't got time to worry and fine tune the sound too much anyway. Ultimately a more expensive bass is very unlikely to make me a better player and a boutique bass is no subsitute for a great gig crowd wise.

The again I may be easily pleased, odd or both.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='JohnSlade07' post='468735' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:32 PM']Ultimately a more expensive bass is very unlikely to make me a better player and a boutique bass is no subsitute for a great gig crowd wise.

The again I may be easily pleased, odd or both.[/quote]

Totally agree. Ive only ever spent enough to afford what i need and i don't really go for cosmetics.

I know im in a minority but i dont believe you have to buy a boutique bass for £2000+ to get a fantastic bass.
Im sure the old guy at the back of the room cant tell my neck pocket isnt as tight as it could be, or that the grain in the body is not as good as a bass costing twice as much.

Ive never really been fussy but i must say, since i switched to playing a P im very content.

Edited April 21, 2009 by dave_bass5

[51m0n]

[quote name='JohnSlade07' post='468735' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:32 PM']Ultimately a more expensive bass is very unlikely to make me a better player and a boutique bass is no subsitute for a great gig crowd wise.[/quote]

Well I don't necessarily agree with that. A really good bass really well setup will help you play things you never dreamed you could - the key is largely in the setup.

I've been setting up my basses for nigh on 20 years, and really thought I had it down. Every bass player who tried my 4 string thought the setup up was excellent, very fast and super easy to play without excessive string rattle.

I thought I new my stuff!

Then I got my Roscoe, and the action is totally ridiculous, its unbelievably low, and yet there is virtually no rattle anywhere on the neck unless I play with the grip of an enraged baboon. Honestly, set up like this has to be a lot to do with the fact its a unique hand made instrument, finished by an expert craftsman, and setup up by one too, cos I've never seen anything close!

I don't think you can match it with a wood construction instrument using machines except for final assembly, wood is to variable a material to get accurate enough. Plus the wood stock used in cheap instruments is rarely dried properly first and so is almost guaranteed to flex and expand ruining any set up done in the factory.

Then there is the electronics.

As an example the Ibanez SR300 is my personal recommended cheap starter bass, its a super instrumetn for the price, with Ibanez electronics it sounds perfectly good, but when you compare it to the next couple of grades up Inbanez SR with the Bart pups and pre the difference is easily discernible. For me quality tone off the instrument makes me want to play more often, I enjoy the experience more, a tone that is more harmonically rich, and with greater frequency range tends to make me want to bother to plug in the headphone amp and practice.

So it helps me make myself a better player...

Question, when was the last time you picked up a > £1500 value bass that really worked for you and played it for a couple of hours to get into it, then compare it to, say, an average £200 bass??

Taking the cash required to buy them out of the equation, which one did you get the most out of???

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' post='468778' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:00 PM']Well I don't necessarily agree with that. A really good bass really well setup will help you play things you never dreamed you could - the key is largely in the setup.[/quote]

Ah but thats the key phrase, a really good bass doesn't have to be a really expensive one IME.

I do get what your saying though but i also think people pay a lot more for different wood and a better looking finish, things that don't really make a big difference your playing and hardly any to your live sound (as in mixed in with the rest of the band)
Im not talking £200 basses of course, i think a decent one around £1000 should be good enough for anyone to play. Even with the cost of a decent set up its still less than a £2000 but can still make the same noises (more or less).

Edited April 21, 2009 by dave_bass5

[51m0n]

[quote name='dave_bass5' post='468787' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:04 PM']Ah but thats the key phrase, a really good bass doesn't have to be a really expensive one IME.

I do get what your saying though but i also think people pay a lot more for different wood and a better looking finish, things that don't really make a big difference your playing and hardly any to your live sound (as in mixed in with the rest of the band)
Im not talking £200 basses of course, i think a decent one around £1000 should be good enough for anyone to play. Even with the cost of a decent set up its still less than a £2000 but can still make the same noises (more or less).[/quote]

Well I think £1000 is expensive.

It may well be worth every penny, but it isnt cheap.

I think £200 is cheap.

I think over £1500 and you are getting seriously exotic and in all likelihood are paying for some special woods, or customisation, or handmade.

Around £1000 will get you a great bass, almost always. It may not be "the one" for you (equally with more expensive) but it will be for someone , and it really ought to have a decent set up, perfectly good electronics and good enough hardware to stay in tune and do the job to a pretty pro level.

Up in the £1500 to £2000 area you should expect something more than doing the job even to a pretty pro level. It must have mojo, and function perfectly IMO, or its not good value. That mojo is part of what makes it make you play better than the £1000 instrument...

Over £2000 and you probably won the lottery.....

IMO....

[JohnSlade07]

Fair point 51mOn, but I'd still be playing the same lines, licks etc I reckon. Playing in a function band doesn't always give me a huge amount of room to experiment, or improvise. Perhaps a boutique bass would inspire me to study more and learn a new style.

[dave_bass5]

[quote name='51m0n' post='468806' date='Apr 21 2009, 05:22 PM']Well I think £1000 is expensive.

It may well be worth every penny, but it isnt cheap.

I think £200 is cheap.

I think over £1500 and you are getting seriously exotic and in all likelihood are paying for some special woods, or customisation, or handmade.

Around £1000 will get you a great bass, almost always. It may not be "the one" for you (equally with more expensive) but it will be for someone , and it really ought to have a decent set up, perfectly good electronics and good enough hardware to stay in tune and do the job to a pretty pro level.

Up in the £1500 to £2000 area you should expect something more than doing the job even to a pretty pro level. It must have mojo, and function perfectly IMO, or its not good value. That mojo is part of what makes it make you play better than the £1000 instrument...

Over £2000 and you probably won the lottery.....

IMO....[/quote]

All i can go by is what ive spent on basses. The most being my current P5. That to me was what i had to spend to get a passive, white 5 string P bass.
I wasn't saying that £1000 is cheap, far from it but i wanted to make it clear i didn't mean a £200 bass always could do the job of one two or three times the cost. I said £1000 for a decent one and i think we agree on that.
The way i see it is i loved my Lakland skyline DD. It was a bass that really did feel perfect and it really did inspire me. that cost £900. Now if i was to go for a USA version which i believe is double that (at least) is that going to make me play or sound any better? i doubt it.

Edited April 21, 2009 by dave_bass5

[51m0n]

I'm not trying to suggest that everyone needs to start saving right away for however long to get a truly expensive bass.

I am suggesting that you DO get what you pay for.

If you feel you need to spend that extra, or you are willing to save for it because it means that much to you then I think the bass will reward you in all probability.

Having said all that I have I would again say I just had my socks blown off by a bass that cost me £150 second hand, so sometimes you really just get a winner!

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='JohnSlade07' post='468735' date='Apr 21 2009, 04:32 PM']I currently play a Yamaha BB414 through a Hartke Kickback 12 into the band PA.[/quote]

That's exactly the set-up I was using albeit with an Aphex Punch Factory Compressor in the chain. I used to get a great sound and more low end than a single 12" driver should really produce. Only got rid of it because I needed something that could hold it's own in a rock band with a loud drummer. The Aphex made a huge difference (contrary to popular opinion) tightening up the bottom, producing a nice clear punchy tone.

I still play a BB414 (my third one)

[Guest MoJo]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='468211' date='Apr 21 2009, 10:45 AM']That's a nice bass sound and I know exactly how to get it. Front pickup only, tone knob rolled back a bit depending on how new your strings are, when it kicks into the straight eighths shift you plucking hand backwards to get more growl. No EQ needed, just a cab that's running clean and is fairly uncoloured. And most importantly - guitarists that have turned down their lows and low mids just like on the recording which frees you up a nice big space in the low midrange.

Alex[/quote]

I'll give it a blast at the next sound check. I always tend to have both pick-ups on full as it's a more sonically pleasing sound to my ears. I like using the front pick-up only if I'm using a pick. I've never experimented with rolling the tone off. I always thought the control was put there to look nice . I've noticed a few players that I've seen recently rolling it off a little for some songs.

Incidentally, I took my own combo to rehearsal last night to give me a chance to experiment with it. I turned everything off...the graphic EQ, the Pre-shape and the 'Valve' stage (which probably doesn't have a valve in it ) and the thing sounded 10 times better than it normally does. Sometimes, I think amp manufacturers give you too many toys to play with. The pre-shape on the Trace GP12's gives a very pleasing sound when soloing the bass but it robs a load of mids which makes you to struggle to be heard when playing with the rest of the band. I shall be trying my new 'run-flat' setting at the next gig on the 9th of May

Edited April 22, 2009 by bassman2790

[alexclaber]

[quote name='51m0n' post='468510' date='Apr 21 2009, 02:07 PM']I know Alex will understand where I'm coming from![/quote]

Yep, you're right on the money!

Alex

[alexclaber]

[quote name='bassman2790' post='469243' date='Apr 22 2009, 07:40 AM']I'll give it a blast at the next sound check. I always tend to have both pick-ups on full as it's a more sonically pleasing sound to my ears. I like using the front pick-up only if I'm using a pick. I've never experimented with rolling the tone off. I always thought the control was put there to look nice . I've noticed a few players that I've seen recently rolling it off a little for some songs.[/quote]

Aha! I'm quite new to passive basses and have been discovering the joy of the tone knob. Regarding the pickups, on most dual pickup basses the soloed front pickup is closest to the natural sound of the instrument, that sound you'd get if you could mic it up acoustically. The back pickup gives you a whole load more growl and punch courtesy of increased upper midrange content.

However when you use both pickups at once you don't get a halfway house between the front and back pickup sound, you get a totally different sound with a scooped out midrange. This is because the two pickups are most out of phase in the midrange so their output cancels there.

So I generally use the front pickup as my default sound, the back pickup as my more aggressive sound and both pickups together as my more subdued mellow sound (although it has a touch more growl and treble than the soloed neck pickup it's rather a sweet growl and the midrange is much more subdued without all that grunt and barck of the soloed neck pickup). Where I used to use overdrive I now just switch to the bridge pickup and dig in.

The further spaced your pickups are, the deeper and wider the midrange scoop will be with both on.

Alex