A question about latency

[Nicko]

I'm using Cubase 7 LE Elements on a Windows 8 PC with limited RAM, via a Focusrite 2i2.  MIDI keyboard goes direct through USB not via the interface.

 

I've noticed recently that when record an audio track or play via the MIDI keyboard it's out of time with any track programmed through the piano roll, and this is the bit I don't understand, the audio is before the beat.  If I advance the audio by 30mS I can correct the error but I really can't understand why it's not a delay.

 

According to the device manager the input latency is around 20mS and output is around 30mS.  

 

Is it a latency issue or my poor technique (which seems remarkably consistent across instruments).

[SamIAm]

Wish I could offer a sensible suggestion but that setup is SO far removed from any I've used it would be like Greek to me!

 

You do say a couple things that spark some thoughts ...

 

"I've noticed recently" - has anything changed on your system recently?

"Limited RAM" - How limited?  If you are having to swap to disk a lot it will bash system performance.  Are talking 2Gb or 16Gb of RAM?

I wonder if trying a different DAW might be worth considering, for instance Ardour which is quite fab.

It might be worth running an OS that is less demanding on resources, several linux variants are very Windows like in behaviour but use a fraction of the H/W to do more!

 

The latency numbers you mention seem high to me, I recall that 1ms of latency is about the same as a foot of distance for sound to travel ... so that's 50feet of delay!  https://www.homemusicproducer.com/what-is-considered-good-audio-latency/

 

Sorry for the vague nature of these comments ideas but it might spark something

 

S'manth xx

[Woodinblack]

2 hours ago, Nicko said:

the audio is before the beat.  If I advance the audio by 30mS I can correct the error but I really can't understand why it's not a delay.

 

if the audio is before the beat why would you want to advance it, or is this just me misunderstanding your use of advance here?

 

So (for my clarity) in your DAW you have some data you have put in by hand (that you call the audio) that is on the beat, or the reference, and then you record by playing that out and playing along with it from a keyboard, where you would expect 20ms input delay and 30ms audio delay but find that the recorded midi is in advance of the audio?

In which case the only two possible  reasons are that the computer is deciding you have this delay and shifting it by this number forward, but the numbers aren't right, or you are playing in advance of what you hear (I have this really bad problem for doing that unless I concentrate).

 

Not sure about cubase, havent' used it for 20 years or so, but is there any auto correct in there for midi input? Oh yes, checking the web, there is an 'auto correct for latency' in the audio system, maybe something about that?

 

[Nicko]

47 minutes ago, Smanth said:

Wish I could offer a sensible suggestion but that setup is SO far removed from any I've used it would be like Greek to me!

 

You do say a couple things that spark some thoughts ...

 

"I've noticed recently" - has anything changed on your system recently?

"Limited RAM" - How limited?  If you are having to swap to disk a lot it will bash system performance.  Are talking 2Gb or 16Gb of RAM?

I wonder if trying a different DAW might be worth considering, for instance Ardour which is quite fab.

It might be worth running an OS that is less demanding on resources, several linux variants are very Windows like in behaviour but use a fraction of the H/W to do more!

 

The latency numbers you mention seem high to me, I recall that 1ms of latency is about the same as a foot of distance for sound to travel ... so that's 50feet of delay!  https://www.homemusicproducer.com/what-is-considered-good-audio-latency/

 

Sorry for the vague nature of these comments ideas but it might spark something

 

S'manth xx

Thanks S'manth

 

The software and interface are 10 years old, and the computer is due a replacement but that is on hold until I move house. RAM is 8GB and I'll be looking to up this to at least 16GB as part of the upgrade..  I'd have thought that the issue would be more variable if it were a demand issue - increasing teh impact when I'm running more VSTs and less when I'm not which is partly why I'm baffled.

 

I've noticed recently means I've always had the problem but not really understood what the problem was.

[Nicko]

28 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

 

if the audio is before the beat why would you want to advance it, or is this just me misunderstanding your use of advance here?

 

So (for my clarity) in your DAW you have some data you have put in by hand (that you call the audio) that is on the beat, or the reference, and then you record by playing that out and playing along with it from a keyboard, where you would expect 20ms input delay and 30ms audio delay but find that the recorded midi is in advance of the audio?

In which case the only two possible  reasons are that the computer is deciding you have this delay and shifting it by this number forward, but the numbers aren't right, or you are playing in advance of what you hear (I have this really bad problem for doing that unless I concentrate).

 

Not sure about cubase, havent' used it for 20 years or so, but is there any auto correct in there for midi input? Oh yes, checking the web, there is an 'auto correct for latency' in the audio system, maybe something about that?

 

By advance I mean shift to the right (ie delay it).  Otherwise your understanding seems correct.  I wondered if there were a latency compensation as there is in some DAWs but if there is in this version of Cubase I can't locate it and it's not detailed in the manual.  There is an auto compensation and this could be the problem, but it cannot be adjusted you can only set a threshold.  That only deals with VST latency and not interface latency.

 

You may be right that it's simply me anticipating what I hear but I doubt I'm actually that consistent - especially across bass, guitar and keys.

[SamIAm]

Happy to try to help.

 

If you are considering to replace it, then I can highly suggest installing something like Ubuntu Studio.

 

I'm running currently on a Lenovo X260, an old beast, but it seems to be snappy! Under 8 seconds from start to being to login and Ardour 7 runs sweet as a nut!

 

And despite being a dedicated Mac Girl, the UI is ... well ... pretty damn good!

 

S'manth x

[Nicko]

7 minutes ago, Smanth said:

I'm running currently on a Lenovo X260, an old beast, but it seems to be snappy!

That's modern by the standards of the box I'm using.😀

[SamIAm]

Then perhaps a higher spec (check out CEX) is required!?

 

S'manth x

[lowdown]

7 hours ago, Nicko said:

I'm using Cubase 7 LE Elements on a Windows 8 PC with limited RAM, via a Focusrite 2i2.  MIDI keyboard goes direct through USB not via the interface.

 

I've noticed recently that when record an audio track or play via the MIDI keyboard it's out of time with any track programmed through the piano roll, and this is the bit I don't understand, the audio is before the beat.  If I advance the audio by 30mS I can correct the error but I really can't understand why it's not a delay.

 

According to the device manager the input latency is around 20mS and output is around 30mS.  

 

Is it a latency issue or my poor technique (which seems remarkably consistent across instruments).

 

 

First off, that latency setting is very high and would be a problem. You haven't said what your buffer size is on your audio interface.

You need to bring the buffer size right down on your audio interface for recording audio (and take it up for mixing).

I run mine at 64 buffers playing and recording then move it up to 1024 for mixing etc.

 

 

Also, you may have to adjust your 'Delay Compensation Threshold' for Midi Instruments.

I'm on the current version of Nuendo 12 but, your preferences should still be the same on your version of Cubase (see below).

Normally, you can do a loopback to set it accurately. But maybe you can just move the figures by trial and error until you are somewhere close.

Of course, it might be something else, but I would start with this for the Midi side of it.

 

[lowdown]

Also, as far as the Midi side of it goes. You might need to engage the 'ASIO Latency Compensation' button(s) at track level, or globally at the top:

 

[Jolltax]

Hello,

 

My thoughts :

 

I spend a lot of time wrestling with PC and other devices, audio interfaces and encountering latency - by no means am I an expert though.

 

In your original description its not really clear to me what you are describing - when I connect a bass to an audio interface I hear latency as an audible delay between when I pluck the string and the sound I hear on the computer through the DAW (not when monitoring). In general with unacceptable latency its very hard to play in time with anything on the PC / device because it means I pluck in time but the sound I play is always behind the beat - this completely addles my brain and drives me mad

 

On a PC the following things are the things I fiddle with :

 

• ASIO drivers (make your DAW has the right ones selected)
• bit / sample rate (too low and you will get distortion and too high you get latency)
• Audio / sound card drivers and audio interface drivers

What I have also learned is that low powered devices struggle generally e.g. unlike some others on here I have never managed to get my iPad Pro down to acceptable latency levels with a DAW.

If your audio interface has a 'monitor' (the focusrite 2i2 does have this) then you can compare signals as the monitor output should not have any latency to speak of ....

A high powered PC definitely helps, if you have an old PC then a lighter OS like Linux might help as suggested above

 

EDIT : I just noticed you are not connecting your keyboard to the PC via the audio interface which means the above probably doesn't apply here!

 

J

 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Jolltax
Correction

[Nicko]

Thanks @lowdown,  I've adjusted the buffer size. The latency shown on the interface window is significantly lower, and the issue I had seems to be less though not completely eliminated when playing an instrument on an audio track (I can see it on the audio track but not really hear it). 

 

Somewhat strangely there is no global defeat for the Latency Compensation - it's described in the manual and I just can't find it on a toolbar but I did find it on the track window where you pointed to. Possibly because I have a cheapo version of Cubase. Even stranger, with the latency compensation defeated anything played via the midi port is defeated so it looks like the compensation is double what it should be.  I can live with it on the MIDi as I don't do anything too complex and can shift the notes manually or via the track delay function.

[Nicko]

2 hours ago, Jolltax said:

In your original description its not really clear to me what you are describing - when I connect a bass to an audio interface I hear latency as an audible delay between when I pluck the string and the sound I hear on the computer through the DAW

The problem I had was not in what I hear when recording, its what I hear when I play back.

[lowdown]

50 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Thanks @lowdown,  I've adjusted the buffer size. The latency shown on the interface window is significantly lower, and the issue I had seems to be less though not completely eliminated when playing an instrument on an audio track (I can see it on the audio track but not really hear it). 

 

Somewhat strangely there is no global defeat for the Latency Compensation - it's described in the manual and I just can't find it on a toolbar but I did find it on the track window where you pointed to. Possibly because I have a cheapo version of Cubase. Even stranger, with the latency compensation defeated anything played via the midi port is defeated so it looks like the compensation is double what it should be.  I can live with it on the MIDi as I don't do anything too complex and can shift the notes manually or via the track delay function.

 

I'm not sure if this is version dependent but, if you right click on the tool bar in between two icons, there is a list which you can tick to display/not display items: