Singers or vocalists, singing or vocalising

[Barking Spiders]

I've Googled about for definitions re what's the difference but my take is different. Out in the webverse there's the view that a 'singer' is typically e.g. anyone who fronts a band and who doesn't typically have training, may not always hit the notes and can make up for lack of what's widely accepted as a traditionally good voice with one that's characterful or distinctive. A 'vocalist' on the other hand is considered to be musically trained, always sings in tune and naturally, as opposed to how Bowie, Ferry and that bloke in Suede sang/vocalised.

 

I've always been of the opinion that 'singers' are those who can actually SING i.e. maybe have a 3+ octave range, are trained and can turn their hand to any styles. I've always thought it's vocalists who are not likely to have had proper training and who may only be able to pull it off in a specific band or genre. IMO most rock frontmen fall into this category while classical, soul and jazz performers belong to the former.

 

Any thoughts on this matter?

[Cosmo Valdemar]

I'd say it's singing if the sound being produced is a song, or words. Otherwise it's vocalising, like scatting.

[Dad3353]

37 minutes ago, Cosmo Valdemar said:

I'd say it's singing if the sound being produced is a song, or words. Otherwise it's vocalising, like scatting.

 

Is it still 'singing' if one doesn't understand the language, though..? A quite extreme example could be Magma.

 

 A beat box..? Vocalist, Shirley, but what about the Beach Boys, with their 'Papa Oom Mow Mow'..? Singing..?

 

There's a lot of songs and lieder, interspersed with 'La La La La'. Singing..? Hmm... Not so easy, really. Does it matter..?

 

Just sayin'. 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Dad3353

[Nail Soup]

I've always used the terms the opposite way round to that in the OP.

What they have in common is making sounds with the vocal apparatus (Mouth, voicebox etc) ina musical context.

It's not necessary for either to be a front-person or star. 

A singer does their stuff in a way where stuff like pitching etc in of prime importance. A vocalist is where pitching is not important, such as rapping, death-metal and various other forms.

Singers are a subset of vocalists.

 

For example, Mark E Smith of The Fall is a vocalist as he doesn't really sing.

[Munurmunuh]

3 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

I've always been of the opinion that 'singers' are those who can actually SING i.e. maybe have a 3+ octave range, are trained and can turn their hand to any styles

 

Just as a bassist isn't a "bassist" unless they can actually PLAY BASS ie slap, play a six string etc? 

[Bolo]

1 hour ago, Nail Soup said:

A vocalist is where pitching is not important, such as rapping, death-metal and various other forms.

Highlighted the bit I strongly disagree with. The rest would be spot on in my opinion. Extreme or alternative vocals still depend on far reaching control over the voice.

[Phil Starr]

Is this a semantic argument where anyone can come up with a definition and point out a few people who fail to meet the criteria for 'vocalist'? There are many trained classical singers who would fail your 3+ octave test. Come to that re-classifying folk singers as folk-vocalists or come to that Placido Domingo and Maria Callas as vocalists sounds a bit odd too. I think that the webverse has it the right way round, that vocalists are people who sing pop music in its broadest sense and singers are just people who sing. By and large vocalist is used to define a musician whose instrument is their voice, guitarist, bassist, trombonist, vocalist. By and large vocalist became a popular term with jazz bands in the early 20th century and continued in pop and rock after that. In a way it defines a role rather than whether they are any good or not. The first recorded usage of vocalist was in 1790 by the way.

 

I'm a bit worried by the test of quality of what you need to be a singer/vocalist. Almost no-one in the music I play has formal training which is the norm for classical musicians. Then what constitutes formal training? A few tips or half hour lessons with someone a bit more experienced than you or years of study with people who have previously followed the same studies and have formal qualifications? Does it involve testing and exams before moving on to higher levels? 

 

There's no doubt that some people are better singers than others, or that practice and knowledge help them to get better but what constitutes a 'good' voice is complex and also relates to what music they are singing. I doubt you'd find any two of us to agree on what constitutes a good voice. 

 

Anyway I'm clearly not a bassist, 3-octaves? I never visit the dusty end of my bass

 

[Ralf1e]

11 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

 

Just as a bassist isn't a "bassist" unless they can actually PLAY BASS ie slap, play a six string etc? 

One of the best bassist I have known was classical trained and played a basson. We tend to think of a bass guitar as bass end of but it's not. It is only one of the instruments that create bass notes. Many styles don't include slap etc

[Barking Spiders]

11 hours ago, Ricky Rioli said:

 

Just as a bassist isn't a "bassist" unless they can actually PLAY BASS ie slap, play a six string etc? 

 I was talking about what is the difference is between a singer and a vocalist.  There is are  no alternative words for a bassist/bass player, guitarist, drummer.

[Happy Jack]

2 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

There is are  no alternative words for a bassist/bass player, guitarist, drummer.

 

Oh I don't know ... I can think of a few.

[Grimalkin]

Office Worker : So what about you Frank? Did you see that freak on "American Superstars" last night?

 

Frank : What?

 

Office Worker : Last night; that freak on "American Superstarz."

 

Frank : No... I mean yes, I saw that accidentally. I don't watch "American Superstarz"

 

Office Worker : You don't watch it, but you saw him. What are you too good for the show?

 

Frank : Yeah, I'm too good for a karaoke contest that makes stars out of people with no talent.

 

Office Worker : You can't say that dude, some of those kids have real talent.

 

Frank : No they don't. They have good pitch... they're relatively clean, they're non-threatening to little girls and old ladies, they have the ability to stand in line with a stadium full of other desperate and confused people, but I assure you they are talent-free.

 

God Bless America.

[Barking Spiders]

12 hours ago, Nail Soup said:

IFor example, Mark E Smith of The Fall is a vocalist as he doesn't really sing.

Agreed, and to him you can add 90% of rock and pop 'singers' of the last 50 years, e.g. Jagger, the two AC/DC frontmen, Ozzy O, DL Roth, Morrissey, Bowie, Ferry, John Lydon, Joey Ramone, Bjork, Kate Bush, Madonna, David Byrne, Joe Strummer, Dylan, Bernard from New Order, Neil Young, Lou Reed, Axl Rose... People say, 'oh but their vocals suits their music'. Mebbe, but they sure couldn't sing in other any context, which 'proper' singers can. Fr'instance Bowie next to Bing on Little Drummer Boy sounds dreadful while both he and Jagger utterly ruined Dancing In The Streets

[lowdown]

A good classical vocalist is usually a good sight-singer.

 

[lowdown]

17 minutes ago, Barking Spiders said:

 Fr'instance Bowie next to Bing on Little Drummer Boy sounds dreadful while both he and Jagger utterly ruined Dancing in the Streets

 

It's all about opinions, I know. But I agree with those two examples.

 

[Grimalkin]

I never really got the guff about Sinatra, he's no Tony Bennett.

[Barking Spiders]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

 

It's all about opinions, I know. But I agree with those two examples.

 

 Whether you like someone's voice is all about opinion sure but IMO you can also state objectively whether someone has a good singing voice or not. I'm a big fan of Talking Heads up to Speaking in Tongues and David Byrne's quirky vocals work well within that context. However, objectively speaking he's not really a singer at all. On the other hand I'm not a fan of Whitney Houston at all but I acknowledge that she could actually sing

[Nail Soup]

2 hours ago, Barking Spiders said:

Agreed, and to him you can add 90% of rock and pop 'singers' of the last 50 years, e.g. Jagger, the two AC/DC frontmen, Ozzy O, DL Roth, Morrissey, Bowie, Ferry, John Lydon, Joey Ramone, Bjork, Kate Bush, Madonna, David Byrne, Joe Strummer, Dylan, Bernard from New Order, Neil Young, Lou Reed, Axl Rose... People say, 'oh but their vocals suits their music'. Mebbe, but they sure couldn't sing in other any context, which 'proper' singers can. Fr'instance Bowie next to Bing on Little Drummer Boy sounds dreadful while both he and Jagger utterly ruined Dancing In The Streets

Would you say the same thing about bass players? A lot of great bass players could not play in an orchestra pit. Some not even in another genre or band.

Then we'd need two different terms - maybe bassist and bass player. and to decide which way round.

 

[Rich]

To my mind, a singer sings. Even if they've got a terrible singing voice, even if they're trying but failing, if the intention is to set words to a tune, they're singing. Even if those words are "Shana-na-na, sha-na-na-na-na, yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm, get a job", they're still words, to a tune, ergo singing. 

The moment the tune aspect entirely and intentionally disappears from the performance, e.g. rap etc., it's vocalising by a vocalist, not a singer. Michael Bublé and Tom Araya are singers, Chuck D and Dani Filth are not.

Yes this is a bit of an over-simplification and I'm sure there are gaping holes that can be picked in it, but I know what I'm trying to say.

[lowdown]

Personally, I've always thought of them both being the same thing. A musician who happens to sing or vocalise notes.

When talking to other musicians (or non-musicians for that matter), my definition would probably be whatever first came into my mind at that precise time.

For instance, when talking to certain musician friends of mine, we would call a singer/vocalist....'a Warbler' (being very vocal), or even a 'songster'.

 

 

Hayley the Classical Vocalist for Hire - Surrey (warble-entertainment.com)

 

 

[Ralf1e]

9 minutes ago, Nail Soup said:

Would you say the same thing about bass players? A lot of great bass players could not play in an orchestra pit. Some not even in another genre or band.

Then we'd need two different terms - maybe bassist and bass player. and to decide which way round.

 

Lets put it like this. Not everyone who can read and write is an author, play-write, poet or philosopher. Not everybody who can drive a car is capable of driving a Ferrari, F1 car, Rally car or even a lorry. Not everyone who rides a horse can show jump or is capable of being a racing jockey. Not everyone who can cook is a master chef.

It doesn't detract from all these people are capable of,  neither can you say they can't do them because they are not the best.

It is ironic that the best players among musicians can end up in an orchestra pit while others who cant even write musical notation end up writing songs and singing and playing them to a willing public.

You can write bass lines on a computer with absolutely no musical knowledge whatsoever and many are the wealthier for it.

Some of those in that orchestra pit can reproduce perfectly what is written for them and I envy them that dedication and skill but many of them are quite simply not creative and could not write a piece to save their lives. They are not artistic. So how do we try to grade every different level of skill.

We can't

 

[Happy Jack]

43 minutes ago, Rich said:

To my mind, a singer sings. Even if they've got a terrible singing voice, even if they're trying but failing, if the intention is to set words to a tune, they're singing. Even if those words are "Shana-na-na, sha-na-na-na-na, yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip-yip bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm-bmm, get a job", they're still words, to a tune, ergo singing. 

 

 

 

[Dan Dare]

Slow day then. Does the label really matter?

[Chienmortbb]

23 hours ago, Grimalkin said:

I never really got the guff about Sinatra, he's no Tony Bennett.

Sinatra, in my opinion, is very overrated, All the rat pack were better, So many others from that era were much better too.

[Grimalkin]

2 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Sinatra, in my opinion, is very overrated, All the rat pack were better, So many others from that era were much better too.

 

Sinatra had mob connections, they probably made an offer that couldn't be refused.

[Grimalkin]

Difficult with just a bass for reference, London keeps her own internal key.