String/pole piece spacing on HB Guitarbass VI

[Franticsmurf]

 A month on and I'm still happy with my HB Guitarbass VI. It's been gigged (FOH Engineer: "Who's the bassist?" Me: "Me." FOHE: "But... but..." etc), and it's a keeper.

 

I'm now trying to decide what to do about the misaligned pole pieces on the pickups.

 

I am assuming that there are pickups with the correct spacing for a HB Guitarbass VI out there so option 1 is to replace the originals with suitable pickups. Asking as a pick-up novice, would a simple replacement Strat style single coil pickup work with bass strings? Would a bar pick up be a better option? Option 2 is to dig in with a router to realign the pickups, with the D string pole piece as the 'centred' measure.

 

Any advice, in words of single syllables, would be appreciated. 😃

[acidbass]

People will tell you that it doesn't make a difference - aesthetically it does and IMHO also sonically.  The magnetic field that a string vibrates in is different depending on how much of the string is above the pole piece.  For me, consistency is key and I feel the same about strings being perfectly centred between pole pieces (e.g. J and P basses)

[Bigguy2017]

As the string separation increases from nut to bridge, you'll need three different spacings...  😉

Otherwise slant the pickups a wee bit to fit exactly?

[Doctor J]

Unless you can hear it I wouldn't bother.

 

There are pleny of blade and dual-rail strat-style pickups out there. You are spoiled for choice.

[BigRedX]

AFAIK none of the Bass VI style instruments have pickups with different pole-piece spacing to compensate for the string convergence between the bridge and the neck.

 

IMO the aesthetics are more of an issue than the relationship between the pole-pieces and the strings. If you have a look under the pick guard I would suspect that you'll find the pickups have a single bar magnet connecting all the pole-pieces together so the contribution of the poles themselves is fairly minimal. And if you can hear the difference between aligned and non-aligned pole-pieces you'll also be able to hear the difference between individual pole-pieces and a blade.

 

Personally having the pickups angled so the pole-pieces align with the strings would bother me more than than the current arrangement. Your OCD may vary.

 

Also if the string spacing is similar to a actual Fender Bass VI at the bridge your typical Strat pickup won't be wide enough which will probably be worse. 

 

If it really bothers you, you'll need to get custom-wound pickups, in custom covers either of varying sizes or with the holes cut individually for the 3 different pole-piece spacings (any maybe a new pickguard too). IRRC this is a sub £200 instrument. Is it worth it?

Edited November 14, 2022 by BigRedX

[Franticsmurf]

54 minutes ago, Doctor J said:

Unless you can hear it I wouldn't bother.

 

There are pleny of blade and dual-rail strat-style pickups out there. You are spoiled for choice.

I can hear a drop off in volume between bass and treble strings. It may just be a height adjustment thing - so that will be my next experiment. I assumed that as the high E string and pole piece were so far out, this was the cause. 

[Franticsmurf]

40 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

If you have a look under the pick guard I would suspect that you'll find the pickups have a single bar magnet connecting all the pole-pieces together so the contribution of the poles themselves is fairly minimal.

That makes sense. The drop off isn't huge and may be partly due to EQ, pick-up height or a combination thereof. These are the next things to test.

45 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Personally having the pickups angled so the pole-pieces align with the strings would bother me more than than the current arrangement. Your OCD may vary.

My OCD would allow me to do it but my lack of woodworking skills would render any careful alignment I planned into something that even I couldn't look at without feeling sick. 😀

 

42 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

If it really bothers you, you'll need to get custom-wound pickups, in custom covers either of varying sizes or with the holes cut individually for the 3 different pole-piece spacings (any maybe a new pickguard too). IRRC this is a sub £200 instrument. Is it worth it?

I think I paid £180 or thereabouts, so it's definitely not worth spending a similar amount for custom pick-ups given the likely amount of use it will get. 

 

Thank you all, you've triggered some more ideas for me to look at. 

[acidbass]

47 minutes ago, Franticsmurf said:

I assumed that as the high E string and pole piece were so far out, this was the cause. 

It certainly is.  While the pickup itself is wound in a single coil - the positioning over pole pieces greatly affects the vibration of the string within the magnetic field.  This phenomenon led to the infamous Stingray weak G syndrome for over 40 years before finally being corrected.

Edited November 14, 2022 by acidbass

[BigRedX]

Always difficult to tell from a photo because you don't know how accurately the camera has been positioned in relation to the object being photographed,  but is the problem more that the pickups aren't centred under the strings? Everything looks like it lines up with the low E so the pole-pieces get further away from the higher strings the closer the pickup are to the neck.

[Franticsmurf]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

Always difficult to tell from a photo because you don't know how accurately the camera has been positioned in relation to the object being photographed,  but is the problem more that the pickups aren't centred under the strings? Everything looks like it lines up with the low E so the pole-pieces get further away from the higher strings the closer the pickup are to the neck.

The photo is centred over the middle pickup and shows the spacing quite accurately. The Low E string sits nicely over it's polepiece above the centre pickup. The other pickups are misaligned slightly. There is some barrel distortion in the photo from the wide angle lens, but only in the horizontal direction. 😃

[Ralf1e]

17 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

 A month on and I'm still happy with my HB Guitarbass VI. It's been gigged (FOH Engineer: "Who's the bassist?" Me: "Me." FOHE: "But... but..." etc), and it's a keeper.

 

I'm now trying to decide what to do about the misaligned pole pieces on the pickups.

 

I am assuming that there are pickups with the correct spacing for a HB Guitarbass VI out there so option 1 is to replace the originals with suitable pickups. Asking as a pick-up novice, would a simple replacement Strat style single coil pickup work with bass strings? Would a bar pick up be a better option? Option 2 is to dig in with a router to realign the pickups, with the D string pole piece as the 'centred' measure.

 

Any advice, in words of single syllables, would be appreciated. 😃

Strat style do work with bass strings and on a cheaper bass as in the past considerably enhance the sound. If you slant the pickups a bit you need to keep them as close to the harmonic as you can for the richest sound.

If you have been happy with it and I assume you have been happy with it's  sound as well why change it?

Dimarzio make nice single coil sized humbuckers with twin rails across the top for 6 string guitars. They might fit. Great pickups.

[Franticsmurf]

Thanks everyone. I've decided to leave well alone. As has been pointed out, to spend anything approaching the value of the guitar on upgrades or other fixes isn't worth it, bearing in mind I'm happy with the overall sound. Any fixes are to satisfy my mild OCD. Besides, there are other toys to spend my money on - now where is the marketplace.... 😀

[BigRedX]

17 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

I can hear a drop off in volume between bass and treble strings. It may just be a height adjustment thing - so that will be my next experiment. I assumed that as the high E string and pole piece were so far out, this was the cause. 

 

What amp/cabs are you running this through?

 

All of my Bass VIs were slightly quiet on the higher strings when used with a typical bass amp. As soon as I dispensed with this and went for a Helix and FRFR cab, it immediately sounded much more balanced. It may be that you need a different rig for this instrument, not different pickups.

[Baloney Balderdash]

It's not a real problem, unless you suffer from OCD (actual real OCD that is).

 

You would need custom made pickups to address this perceived/imagined "issue".

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Baloney Balderdash]

21 hours ago, Franticsmurf said:

I can hear a drop off in volume between bass and treble strings. It may just be a height adjustment thing - so that will be my next experiment. I assumed that as the high E string and pole piece were so far out, this was the cause. 

After adjusting the pickups properly, which should be an expected adjustment to make, together with a proper full setup in general, on any guitar or bass regardless of price point, this ought not to be an issue either, at least I don't experience this on my Harley Benton GuitarBass.

 

Though relative string gauge between strings will have something to say in this, thicker strings will create a stronger interferrance of the magnetic field from the pickups than thinner strings, and therefor higher output, to a lesser extend the tension will have something to say in this as well, but with my custom made very close to perfectly tension balanced set, the output of the individual strings on my HarleyBenton GuitarBass at least are very near to absolutely perfectly balanced.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Franticsmurf]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

It may be that you need a different rig for this instrument, not different pickups.

Initially TCE BAM200 and TE1x10 cab. One gig was with a supplied TE combo, where the difference was more noticeable but this I put down to it being an unfamiliar amp and I was unable to make proper adjustments to the controls.  I hadn't considered FRFR but it's not really an option for similar reasons to the custom pickups as you mentioned above. I will include a run through my recording set up to see if there is a difference.

 

The reality is that when I use the Guitarbass to play bass on the EADG strings it's fine. It's when I launch into the upper registers using the B and E that the issue appears. It is the world telling me to leave the upper registers alone. 😀  

[BigRedX]

Because I use my Bass VIs to play both "bass" and "guitar" parts I discovered that having the Helix and FRFR absolutely essential in getting a balanced sound between the two. When I first switched from playing my "normal" bass after the guitarist left one of the bands I'm in and we decided not to replace him, I was using the rehearsal room's bass rig as before, in order to save on the amount of gear I took to practice, and found myself turning up all the Helix patches to compensate for the loss of top end on the "guitar" parts. However at the first few gigs with this band when I was using the FRFR for monitoring they were now all too loud. Now I always use the FRFR and I have been able to achieve a balanced sound for all the strings.

[Ralf1e]

32 minutes ago, Franticsmurf said:

Initially TCE BAM200 and TE1x10 cab. One gig was with a supplied TE combo, where the difference was more noticeable but this I put down to it being an unfamiliar amp and I was unable to make proper adjustments to the controls.  I hadn't considered FRFR but it's not really an option for similar reasons to the custom pickups as you mentioned above. I will include a run through my recording set up to see if there is a difference.

 

The reality is that when I use the Guitarbass to play bass on the EADG strings it's fine. It's when I launch into the upper registers using the B and E that the issue appears. It is the world telling me to leave the upper registers alone. 😀  

I have a 4 strings Ormsby bass with a dark glass preamp. I noticed just yesterday that it can loose the two top strings it you are not carful with the preamp

[Baloney Balderdash]

5 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Because I use my Bass VIs to play both "bass" and "guitar" parts I discovered that having the Helix and FRFR absolutely essential in getting a balanced sound between the two. When I first switched from playing my "normal" bass after the guitarist left one of the bands I'm in and we decided not to replace him, I was using the rehearsal room's bass rig as before, in order to save on the amount of gear I took to practice, and found myself turning up all the Helix patches to compensate for the loss of top end on the "guitar" parts. However at the first few gigs with this band when I was using the FRFR for monitoring they were now all too loud. Now I always use the FRFR and I have been able to achieve a balanced sound for all the strings.

I didn't consider this might be why I have no issues with this.

 

Cause yes, I use a FRFR (studio grade headphones at home, PA speaker at band rehearsals), however in front of it I do actually also use a simple faux, EQ based, cab sim, practically just being a LPF set at 3.6 kHz with an approximate -12dB/Oct slope, which actually isn't too different from your typical, non tweeter horn equipped, bass cab high end roll off.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Baloney Balderdash

[Franticsmurf]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

I use my Bass VIs to play both "bass" and "guitar" parts

The GBVI was initially bought partly as an experiment (I have small hands and the short scale and string spacing appealed to my ex-guitarist self). It was also to use in a 13 piece, largely acoustic, band who were missing some melody parts. This it does but with the aforementioned drop off in volume. Recently I've been depping in a duo/trio and I can see  place for it there, too, filling the sound out with some chords now and again and playing some riffs as required.

 

I think I'll create a pedal board just for it, rather than using the same pedals as the main basses I use. I have an EQ pedal which should be able to compensate for the difference in volume (and I should add that its not a massive difference).

 

Thanks again, all. I find reading all the replies here has set my mind thinking on tangents about solutions, work-arounds and so on. 👍

 

 

[Franticsmurf]

3 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Now I always use the FRFR and I have been able to achieve a balanced sound for all the strings.

Brief update. Plugged the VI into my B1-4 with studio headphones. Initial setting was an effects free 'Through' patch. No issues with string volume balance. The difference I heard was, like @BigRedX said, the difference between FRFR and bass amp/cab voicing.

[BigRedX]

Just out of interest, for my Bass VI patches on the Helix where I am using an amp/cab sim it's for guitar amp rather than a bass amp.